One NFC assistant's take on Tavon Wilson (inside info)

mayoclinic · May 14, 2012

DaBruinz said:
Lavonte David didn't get nearly the hype on this board that Connor Barwin did. And I think that the idea that David is going to magically be as good as Barwin is wishful thinking. David is an extremely poor fit for the Pats defense unless you are talking about him at ILB. And since the Pats had already added Hightower there, David wasn't going to be on their radar. David is a much better fit for a defense running a Tampa-2. And that's exactly where he's going. A place where he'll be a better fit.

It's interesting how much love there is for Lavonte David since the Pats took Tavon Wilson at 48. Suddenly David is the consensus BPA who was on the board at the pick and being embraced by many who didn't know who he was before the draft. Not everyone, but there are certainly some people who are bigger fans of David post-draft than before it.

I personally was a huge Lavonte David fan, and despite the fact that he isn't a prototypical fit for the Pats I believed that he could be an impact player for us. David is a perfect fit for a Tampa-2, but I believe he's good enough that a creative coach could find ways to use him in any scheme. I understand that I'm probably in the minority in that believe. I called David the best defensive prospect in the draft, and I believe that, and I liked him as much as any LB prospect since Connor Barwin. But he certainly didn't get that kind of adoration from the board prior to the draft.

DaBruinz said:
The Pats will not regret taking HIGHTOWER over Lavonte David. And that's what it boils down to. Not Wilson over David.

Personally, I see Hightower and David as apples and oranges. There's no possible way David could play the kind of role that Hightower will play for BB - his frame just isn't capable of that. So in that sense you are right, BB will not regret taking Hightower over David. But I think the two players could have played very complementary roles with David as a hybrid LB/S, and in that way he is much more comparable to Tavon Wilson than to Hightower. So I'm not sure I agree with your premise that it was Hightower vs. David rather than Wilson vs. David.

JackBauer · May 14, 2012

Eh. At least we can take some solace in the fact David will be languishing (not himself, personally) on a terrible team instead of on one of our rivals.

mayoclinic · May 14, 2012

JackBauer said:
Eh. At least we can take some solace in the fact David will be languishing (not himself, personally) on a terrible team instead of on one of our rivals.

I don't think Tampa Bay will be terrible at all. I think they could be a big surprise this year. Greg Schiano seems to be toughening them up, and there is a strong talent base.

JackBauer · May 14, 2012

mayoclinic said:
I don't think Tampa Bay will be terrible at all. I think they could be a big surprise this year. Greg Schiano seems to be toughening them up, and there is a strong talent base.

Eh. I don't see it. Losing Bowers was big, and outside him I don't see much worth fearing in their front seven.

Really, their greatest liability is Freeman, of course.

State · May 14, 2012

DaBruinz said:
It's amazing how your stance on Wilson has morphed. You've gone from saying how he was a horrible pick to at least admitting he might actually have a good year or two. In three years, you might actually be able to admit the Pats knew more about him than you did.

I think we will see Tavon Wilson, or TW, play better than Darius Butler but not as good as the fourth round player Asante Samuel.

His best assets are his versatility (linked with his good size. He's big for a corner.) and his coachability.

But Lavonte David took over football games, which is something I am sure can't be said of TW. David, a football player with a football IQ similar to Bruschi's, knows how to make plays. Period.

You get those guys on the field somehow. Remember Brushi was a NT for Arizona.

mayoclinic · May 14, 2012

I'm at a complete loss as to how you can make such a statement.

State said:
I think we will see Tavon Wilson, or TW, play better than Darius Butler but not as good as the fourth round player Asante Samuel.

BradyManny · May 14, 2012

mayoclinic said:
I don't think Tampa Bay will be terrible at all. I think they could be a big surprise this year. Greg Schiano seems to be toughening them up, and there is a strong talent base.

Though a friend of a friend kind of thing I've heard some stories about the TB locker room - I was not surprised to see their season unfold based on what I heard. Josh Freeman has some real issues and he has to get his head on straight or he'll never be consistently good. Morris was not the guy who was going to help with that, apparently he partied as hard as the players, and was not going to run a tight ship. Schiano may actually get these guys to play to their level of talent.

mayoclinic · May 14, 2012

BradyManny said:
Though a friend of a friend kind of thing I've heard some stories about the TB locker room - I was not surprised to see their season unfold based on what I heard. Josh Freeman has some real issues and he has to get his head on straight or he'll never be consistently good. Morris was not the guy who was going to help with that, apparently he partied as hard as the players, and was not going to run a tight ship. Schiano may actually get these guys to play to their level of talent.

The Bucs under Schiano seem to be doing some things right. They've added some guys with a lot of character and tremendous work ethic and enthusiasm for football in Mark Barron, Doug Martin and Lavonte David. They've added a tremendous offensive guard in Carl Nicks, who comes from a winning program. Schian seems to be set on creating a team with toughness, resilience and character, which would be a huge departure from the Tampa Bay teams of the past decade. I personally loved his move of signing Eric LeGrand:

Greg Schiano's bond with Eric LeGrand reaches new heights with Buccaneers contract - Peter King - SI.com

When LeGrand asked why Schiano wanted to "waste" a roster spot on him Schiano assured him that it wasn't a waste. And I would agree - it not only provides inspiration and a message of perseverance to the team, it shows what loyalty Schiano has to his players.

Ian Rapoport had an interesting article today about Courtney Upshaw becoming "the next great Raven". While that's premature, the interesting part of the article was Ozzie Newsome talking about building the nucleus of the team and how that affects bringing in other players:

Newsome, director of player personnel Eric DeCosta and a respected scouting department seek out the attributes for which their players are now associated. And, as Newsome explained to NFL.com while watching Sunday's rookie minicamp, they've been willing to abandon long-held height/weight/speed guidelines in favor of a prospect who plays with fire. He can recognize it when he pops in tape of a college prospect.

"You see it when a guy runs to the football," Newsome explained. "The way they play when they're not involved in the play, what are they doing? When he's not involved, is he running to the ball? Is he still playing with the fundamentals he's supposed to play with during that time?" By taking his eye off the ball and turning away from the play, Newsome believes he can find players with grit that outweighs physique. Considering the Ravens have made the playoffs four years in a row and boast 16 homegrown Pro Bowlers in their history, it's leading to wins. Nearly as important, it's leading to an attitude.

Perhaps it's best exemplified by ageless linebacker Ray Lewis. [Lewis] was actually part of Newsome's first draft class in Baltimore -- the pick that changed everything. Newsome took over the Ravens scouting department in 1996, after learning from then-Cleveland Browns coach Bill Belichick. Back then, they held strong to the height/weight/speed standards taught by Bill Parcells, who won using that method with the New York Giants. That was until coach Ted Marchibroda pulled Newsome aside and asked him to find players with passion who loved to play. Lewis, considered a small, quick University of Miami linebacker at 6-feet and roughly 230 pounds in 1996, was the prototype.

"That led us to Ray Lewis, who actually didn't fit the height, weight and speed (standards), but he just enjoyed playing football and made all the plays," Newsome said. "And we started to build from that. This division has been a physical division, even when I played in it. So, when you match physicality with passion, along with height, weight and speed, now you get a picture of what we look for in players."

"Guys come in here and they see that's the way we do it, that's the way it's done," Newsome said. "They become them."

Newsome brought up the example of defensive tackle Sam Adams, who the team signed in 2000. He had a reputation for being lazy, and some wondered if he was worth the money they paid him. The atmosphere made it so.

"Everybody said (Adams) takes plays off," Newsome said. "Well, you come in, you can't do that. You got 10 guys running to the ball and you're not, you see it on tape and you go, 'Uh uh, I don't want that to be me.' "

Rookie Courtney Upshaw looks like another prototypical Raven - NFL.com

It seems to me like Schiano's trying to build that kind of nucleus, and is looking for "players with passion who love to play". Build a nucleus of those and it's harder for the underachievers to underachieve. It's not easy. It won't happen overnight and Schiano may not succeed, but it seems like a step in the right direction.

The Saints are in disarray. The Falcons seem to have hit a wall in their development. It may not happen, but I wouldn't be shocked to see Tampa Bay emerge as a legitimate power in the NFC South.

Ivan · May 14, 2012

mayoclinic said:
The Bucs under Schiano seem to be doing some things right. They've added some guys with a lot of character and tremendous work ethic and enthusiasm for football in Mark Barron, Doug Martin and Lavonte David. They've added a tremendous offensive guard in Carl Nicks, who comes from a winning program. Schian seems to be set on creating a team with toughness, resilience and character, which would be a huge departure from the Tampa Bay teams of the past decade. I personally loved his move of signing Eric LeGrand:

Greg Schiano's bond with Eric LeGrand reaches new heights with Buccaneers contract - Peter King - SI.com

When LeGrand asked why Schiano wanted to "waste" a roster spot on him Schiano assured him that it wasn't a waste. And I would agree - it not only provides inspiration and a message of perseverance to the team, it shows what loyalty Schiano has to his players.

Ian Rapoport had an interesting article today about Courtney Upshaw becoming "the next great Raven". While that's premature, the interesting part of the article was Ozzie Newsome talking about building the nucleus of the team and how that affects bringing in other players:

Rookie Courtney Upshaw looks like another prototypical Raven - NFL.com

It seems to me like Schiano's trying to build that kind of nucleus, and is looking for "players with passion who love to play". Build a nucleus of those and it's harder for the underachievers to underachieve. It's not easy. It won't happen overnight and Schiano may not succeed, but it seems like a step in the right direction.

The Saints are in disarray. The Falcons seem to have hit a wall in their development. It may not happen, but I wouldn't be shocked to see Tampa Bay emerge as a legitimate power in the NFC South.

I couldn't agree with this any more. What is so often missed in the outsider evaluations of players is the kind of person/player they are and how that relates both to their development as players and as a part of the overall team. This is why it's mystifying when Belichick strays from that consideration and chooses players like Maroney, Chad Jackson, and Meriweather, who had exceptional talent but lacked either heart, toughness, or discipline, and why sticking to players who really love to play football is so important. Over and over we have seen the effect that players like Bruschi, Faulk, and Troy Brown have on the team, and why it is so important to build a team with players like this on each and every unit. The underwear olympics can give us some insight on measureables and athletic ability but does nothing to tell us what kind of person they are, and that is a major factor in how the player develops once they are working for a living. it's easier to take a risk on talent as the rounds get later but the high picks really need to be character guys who will become leaders down the road, and I think they nailed that with Jones and Hightower in this draft, I love it.

Off The Grid · May 14, 2012

Oh, YEAHHHHHHHHH...

The Bucs are coming back HARD.

Already NAILED that Call, two years ago, by the way!!

Off The Grid · May 14, 2012

midwestpatsfan said:
Wow, my first "Brother" from OTG. I have arrived!!!!!

Patriot_in_NY said:
Welcome to the club. This is where life is worth living.

Nothing like a little acknowledgement from the PF.com guru's to bounce a little spring into your step. :singing:

You honor US, Brother MidWest and Brother York!!

"We Are All Brothers, in the Eyes of GOD." ~ Yon Preacher

"AAAAAAYAEAEAEAEAEAAEAHHHHHHH!!!" ~ Brother Bluto Blutarksy

MV5BMTMwMzA4NzU0Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDMxOTQ3MQ@@._V1._SX640_SY496_.jpg

Anybody want to guess which Yankee ~ she's from Lynn!! ~ starred in BOTH these movies??

No cheating!! :nono:

***

SeymourTrophies · May 15, 2012

Something about Gerald McCoy's admission to complete befuddlement and amazement at the hurry up against us in the preseason told me that, at the very least, their defense was going suck last season.

mayoclinic · May 15, 2012

Ivan said:
This is why it's mystifying when Belichick strays from that consideration and chooses players like Maroney, Chad Jackson, and Meriweather, who had exceptional talent but lacked either heart, toughness, or discipline, and why sticking to players who really love to play football is so important.

Yeah, it's hard to understand, but the Pats clearly seemed to go astray for a couple of years. Maybe it was a divergence of views between BB and Scott Pioli. Maybe they thought the team was so close to more SBs and had enough veteran leadership that they could afford to take a few chances. But those picks certainly drifted off target, and didn't work out so well.

captain stone · May 15, 2012

mayoclinic said:
I'm at a complete loss as to how you can make such a statement.

Why not? Between the one end - A$ante playing for 5 years and becoming a Pro-Bowler,
and the other end - Butler playing for 2 years before Bill prematurely waives him, there's
a lot of room for different career paths. Even if Wilson's is just a fraction closer to A$ante's
than it is to Butler's, then he will have exceeded my expectations.

mayoclinic · May 15, 2012

captain stone said:
Why not? Between the one end - A$ante playing for 5 years and becoming a Pro-Bowler,
and the other end - Butler playing for 2 years before Bill prematrurely waives him, there's
a lot of room for different career paths. Even if Wilson's is just a fraction closer to A$ante's
than it is to Butler's, then he will have exceeded my expectations.

Sure there's lots of room. But I don't see how you can predict where Wilson will fall when we haven't even seen him play yet. If you want meaningless predictions, here's one: as safeties go, I'm guessing Tavon Wilson will turn out to be somewhere in-between Dexter Reid and Ed Reed.

Water Boy · May 15, 2012

mayoclinic said:
Personally, I see Hightower and David as apples and oranges. There's no possible way David could play the kind of role that Hightower will play for BB - his frame just isn't capable of that. So in that sense you are right, BB will not regret taking Hightower over David. But I think the two players could have played very complementary roles with David as a hybrid LB/S, and in that way he is much more comparable to Tavon Wilson than to Hightower. So I'm not sure I agree with your premise that it was Hightower vs. David rather than Wilson vs. David.

I agree. With the NFL morphing into a passing league and sub packages all the rage, its safe to say we could have found a home for David in the defense especially on passing downs. From what I gather Hightower was used as a pass rusher on passing downs and is not a proven pass defender.

chrisanna · May 17, 2012

I was really just hoping to find out if the team he worked for thought it was a major reach or not.

ForThoseAboutToRock · May 18, 2012

Ivan said:
I couldn't agree with this any more. What is so often missed in the outsider evaluations of players is the kind of person/player they are and how that relates both to their development as players and as a part of the overall team. This is why it's mystifying when Belichick strays from that consideration and chooses players like Maroney, Chad Jackson, and Meriweather, who had exceptional talent but lacked either heart, toughness, or discipline, and why sticking to players who really love to play football is so important. Over and over we have seen the effect that players like Bruschi, Faulk, and Troy Brown have on the team, and why it is so important to build a team with players like this on each and every unit. The underwear olympics can give us some insight on measureables and athletic ability but does nothing to tell us what kind of person they are, and that is a major factor in how the player develops once they are working for a living. it's easier to take a risk on talent as the rounds get later but the high picks really need to be character guys who will become leaders down the road, and I think they nailed that with Jones and Hightower in this draft, I love it.

I was really bummed out when Tyrone McKenzie didn't pan out w/ the injuries etc. I thought he'd be one of those under rated type guys who helps make the Patriots great through hard work and dedication to the team's system.

Also in reading what you've written here, it's an... interesting? lens through which to look at the Dennard pick. BB spoke about how he thinks the arrest wasn't who Dennard is. Time will tell if the guy can be molded by the Patriots defensive leadership & coaches to maximize his potential. Not to overstate the importance of a 7th rounder not panning out - he's just gotten so much attention as a great value sleeper pick that he's not at all seen in the same light as the guys taken at #223 or #225.

Off The Grid · May 18, 2012

mayoclinic said:
Sure there's lots of room. But I don't see how you can predict where Wilson will fall when we haven't even seen him play yet.

If you want meaningless predictions, here's one:

I'm guessing Tavon Wilson will turn out to be somewhere in-between Dexter Reid and Ed Reed.

I'd say you have a pretty good read on that situation.

mayoclinic · May 18, 2012

Off The Grid said:
I'd say you have a pretty good read on that situation.

Very nice. But hey, someone had to go out on a limb and take a stand.

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