Kiper: Patriots Reached on Day Two

Deus Irae said:

Ehh... using your argument, there's no such thing as a reach, and Matt Millen is beyond questioning on message boards and in the media. You're welcome to ascribe to that theory, but I hope you actually practice it, to avoid hypocrisy, by refusing to ever criticize any coach, gm, scout or player, in even the mildest form.

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That's not what I said at all. Again, I am agreeing with your definition of a reach. I have no idea how you go from my post to what you wrote above. I said I value Belichick's opinion of talent higher than I do Kipers, not that every coach's opinion is beyond reproach.

And now, evidently, the value difference between picks #62 and #90 is picks #197, #224 and #235?

skinnydog said:

Come on DaBruinz are really suggesting that the 2 secret scouting Services had this kid rated anywhere near a mid-second round pick. Really?

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The only thing that mattered is where the Patriots had him rated on thier board. If when their pick came up they had him as the #1 player available when thier pick came up, you take him.


You don't say well Mel and Todd think he will be available in the 5th round so we will take the #2 player available caause Mel thinks he is a good value?


You either go with your board or why have a board at all?

Snake Eyes said:

Aside from the fact that he can't change direction, has poor instincts, can't cover or tackle, he sounds like a great player.

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Sez who? This crop for Safeties was acknowledged to be very poor. Belichick has now rebuilt his club, including depth, to the point that there are only a few spots that have openings, and Safety is one of them. it would be wonderful to draft a good S but there aren't any.

Besides he needs a James Sanders, as a team captain and set-the-Defense, more than he needs a talented individual but an uncoachable Meriwether. A guy who has leaderhip ablities, has faced and overcome adversity. This guy an was scouted in person by seven clubs. That doesn't happen to 6th or 7th rounders, or UDFAs.

As someone pointed out, he is taller, heavier, faster, than James Sanders, and most probably has the intangibles that scouts can't measure, but what made Sanders a valuable player to the Patriots.

If he works out fine, if he doesn't, there is always next year or a trade. In the meantime Steve Gregory or Will Allen can play this year. Gregory is the non-star type S, who started for the Chargers.

How does it help the Patriots to cut a "more talented" draftee in another position, where there is no room, and merely stock another team?

Tunescribe said:

Certainly, but then there's the nagging question: why reach when you don't have to?

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Who said they didn't have to?

The only way to prove that someone else was interested in a "reach" player before the Mel Kipers of the world believed they should have been drafted is to lose them to another team.

With so few late round picks, my expectation is that Belichick had a small handful of "his" guys that he wanted to secure, and he set about locking up his top priorities.

Could he have gambled and traded back and MAYBE gotten his priority players as well?

Maybe - but it's a gamble and he may have lost them too.

I think when Belichick has a lot of guys out there who he ranks evenly he knows its safe to trade back because he thinks he can at least get some of them.

If he didn't have a lot of guys who he targeted as priorities, there's no reason to gamble and risk losing them.

Deus Irae said:

Again, we go through this seemingly every year. Instead of white knighting over people calling it a reach, why not just admit that it's a reach and say "But I'm fine with that"? One can be fine with the Patriots reaching without having to attack those who point out it's a reach.

As for the trust level argument, that's a red herring that also gets thrown out pretty much every year.

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I don't criticize those who can say, "... it appears to be a reach, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt."

I will criticize those cloacal cavities who will "lambast" the "wasted pick"; and those who assert that Belichick is "senile", or "needs a GM" to replace him.

Those aren't critics. They are genuine vacuum-headed imbeciles.

Armchair Quarterback said:

You think it is perfectly OK to call someone a steal yet you have no more information on that player than posters on this board who call Wilson a reach. Must me nice to be sitting on both sides of the fence.

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You see to have a problem when people have called you out for posting garbage. Then you come back and try and hi-jack a thread with a personal vendetta. Do yourself a favor. Improve your reading comprehension.

I questioned what film Snake-eyes actually watched on Wilson. That is the post you responded to. That has nothing to do with Alameda Ta'amu being a steal for the Stealers.

Now, run along and go play in traffic or try pushing some train cars or something..

shmessy said:

Actually it is not subjective at all. It is black and white when you trade #62 for #90 and #163 when the Bills then trade #67 for #87 and #123.

It's not an opinion at all. The second round as a whole was bad for the New England Patriots.

I'm ok with one "reach", but to follow it up with a non-tax deuctible charitable donation is just hideous.

It is fact.

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Could you please show us where the Pats were given the same offer of #87 and #123?? If you can't than it's not relevant because the offer wasn't there for them..

skinnydog said:

Come on DaBruinz are really suggesting that the 2 secret scouting Services had this kid rated anywhere near a mid-second round pick. Really? Do you have anything to back that up? Anything?

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First off, they are not "secret scouting services". They are available to ALL teams, just not to the public. Secondly, I don't have to have ANY proof of anything to question this supposed "consensus" you claimed is there. You are the one who made the initial claim as if it were fact. So, you need to show the support for that fact.

skinnydog said:

Look, I think Kiper is an idiot, but he and the Mayock's do speak to scouts and do use that info to set their own boards. I find it highly unlikely that the NFL would invite about 300 kids to the combine but overlook a second round talent from a Big Ten School. Oh, and Bedard tweeted after the pick that the scouts he spoke to we're stunned and were also sating WHO? Then he reaffirms that in a post based on what multiple scouts told him. So yeah, I don't think it is going out on a limb to say the overwhelming consensus was that he was a late round pick or even a free agent.

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Kiper, Mayock, and McShay may speak to scouts, but here's the thing. The scouts aren't the one who make the final boards. The scouts are only the start of the process. Not the final solution. And the final boards are made by the Coach and GM. In the case of the Patriots, it's Caserio and Belichick. And in the case of Wilson, it's my understanding that Caserio worked him out personally.

As for Bedard, who cares. He's a mediot who clearly didn't talk to Patriot scouts. Nor did he talk to the scouts from the 6 other teams that had Wilson in for a workout.

Sorry, but you've offered nothing but hyperbole to support the idea that it was an "overwhelming consensus" that Wilson was a late round pick/UDFA prospect.

DaBruinz said:

First off, they are not "secret scouting services". They are available to ALL teams, just not to the public. Secondly, I don't have to have ANY proof of anything to question this supposed "consensus" you claimed is there. You are the one who made the initial claim as if it were fact. So, you need to show the support for that fact.



Kiper, Mayock, and McShay may speak to scouts, but here's the thing. The scouts aren't the one who make the final boards. The scouts are only the start of the process. Not the final solution. And the final boards are made by the Coach and GM. In the case of the Patriots, it's Caserio and Belichick. And in the case of Wilson, it's my understanding that Caserio worked him out personally.

As for Bedard, who cares. He's a mediot who clearly didn't talk to Patriot scouts. Nor did he talk to the scouts from the 6 other teams that had Wilson in for a workout.

Sorry, but you've offered nothing but hyperbole to support the idea that it was an "overwhelming consensus" that Wilson was a late round pick/UDFA prospect.

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I don't think hyperbole means what you think it means. I know they are not "secret." I meant secret to the public. Oh and can you point to any source that would indicate anyone but the Pats rate this guy as a mid-second round pick? Any?

Anyway, is anyone really arguing this was not a reach?

State said:

Re-read my fifth paragraph.

Just for the record, BB's lousy drafting outside of the first round has prevented the best QB in the history of the game from winning a SB since Feb. 2005, the date of our last victory.

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That's a bunch of crap imo. There have been missed picks as with every team, but the entire freakin roster has been turned over since their 1st SB victory 10 years ago, in large part due to shrewd drafting. And here they are coming off another SB appearance, their 5th in 10 years and 2nd in 5 years. They are 3 whiskers away from owning 6 Lombardis instead of 3. No team is close to any of that.

Drafting is only part of roster management, and heavily related to what they do with FA's and keeping their own players. It all goes together and the overall result is beyond reproach.

I am not sure that Kiper could do a worse job than BB when it comes to drafting DBs.

BB has the edge at every other position though!

Where's the Archie Bunker raspberry button on my computer, because that's what I think of Kiper's opinion on anything.

I didn't watch much of the draft and I was at my m-i-l's house and she doesn't have NFL Network, so I was forced to watch the ESPN coverage. Most of the time, when the pick was someone other than whom Kiper said it would be (for any team. not just the Pats - pretty much every pick except the first two), there was dumbstruck silence on his part, which was hastily filled by Gruden proclaiming that whoever just got picked was the best player ever to play the position who would have an immediate impact on his new team. Since everyone knows this is true about 10% of the time, you can understand why I just waited for the Pats pick then tuned out the rest.

I think the Pats draft has the potential to be great because they picked up players where they need them and they usually get at least one impact player per draft, which (despite people's protests here to the contrary) is pretty good and keeps us at the top of the league every year.

If Kiper was a GM, I suspect he'd make Matt Millen look good by comparison.

Another Belichick second-round miss? - AFC East Blog - ESPN

Wilson needs to break the DB second round curse.

DarrylS said:

What Kiper should have said, "It was pretty embarassing on national TV, and I did not know shyt about Tavon Wilson, while ruffling through his papers and notebooks with a red face".

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This. I thought the best moment in the draft nonsense was Kiper not having a clue about Wilson and trying not to look stupid. It didn't work (in fact, it never works for him!)

PatsDeb said:

I think the Pats draft has the potential to be great because they picked up players where they need them and they usually get at least one impact player per draft, which (despite people's protests here to the contrary) is pretty good and keeps us at the top of the league every year.

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I like the way you think! :agree:

I don't care what anyone says, if the Jets made this pick we'd be mocking them so hard. Don't even deny it!

who's denying it?...I mock EVERY pick the Rats make, have made or will ever make...

CheeseMonkeys said:

I don't care what anyone says, if the Jets made this pick we'd be mocking them so hard. Don't even deny it!

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That is true.


doesn't mean we should give the player a hard time.

He's a patriot now. He needs to show us what he has before he's declared a bust.