Is WELKER Traded before the season starts?

Joker · Apr 24, 2012

Mystery Pats Fan said:
No, it is you that can not comprehend. Already two of us have tried to get it into thick heads like yours.

Welker is listed as a wide receiver but he does not play wide..or at least hardly ever. There is no official designation as slot receiver, but if you took the time to listen to the descriptions as the game is being played, you will hear welker being referred to as the slot receiver, just as all of the other players who line up in that position during a game.

Just as wide receivers were called "ends" years ago, in time the position of "slot receiver" may come to be an official designation instead of calling them wide receivers.

So, I will ask you the same thing, debate my position, issue and item by issue... or if you prefer, continue making it personal, showing that you really do not understand the game of this era.

I'm not making anything personal. Personally, you can say any wingnut thing you like as long as you don't try to make everyone else believe what you are saying is TRUE. Now you KNOW what you posted earlier in this thread. You KNOW you stated as FACT that a slot receiver is different from a WR. You have been SHOWN the official Patriot roster from the team site, delineating Welker as a WR, and you come back with this intergalactically moronic "well, they MAY call them slot receivers in the future!!"...yeah , and YOU may admit you are wrong about something...but I doubt it...your particular kind of message board persona is well known on the net...I'd expect you to be an official high up in some nutbag organization like the Flat Earth Society, after reading your work in this thread.

Mystery Pats Fan · Apr 24, 2012

ausbacker said:
What's the difference between a Slot Receiver, a "Wide Receiver" and a Tight End catching a 15 yard completion? Here's the answer - nothing.

Welker is absolutely the Patriots best Wide Receiver. The fact that he plays in the slot plays to the Patriots' strength. Slot receiver is just as valuable as anyone playing outside the hashes. The fact is, every position that catches the ball is just as important as each other. Outside of Brady, Welker and Gronkowski are the two biggest influencers of statistics for the Patriots Offense.

The problem with people who continue to undervalue or understate Wes Welker is his role execution on the team. I don't care that he plays in the slot, he catches the ball from a "wide" position and is therefore, a wide receiver.

Remove the word "wide" from the sentence highlighted and I will agree with you.

So, let me ask you a question. If at the start of a game, the Pats put out Lloyd split wide on the right, and Stallworth split wide on the left, with Welker in the slot.....officially Lloyd and Stallworth would be the wide receivers on the play and must be on the line of scrimmage.... so what would Welker be on that play no matter where he was positioned, as long as he was off of the line of scrimmage and inside of the two wideouts? What is Welker?

A team can only have two players on the field at the same time designated as "wide receiver" and on the line of scrimmage.

Now, on occasion, one of those wide outs can take a step back and another eligible player, can move into position on the line of scrimmage, as long as they are outside of the five linemen....Now who are the wide receivers?

I await your answers.

supafly · Apr 24, 2012

I get the debate regarding slot WR etc, but it this current system it really doesn't matter. As many have pointed out, Welker is indeed our most important WR, as his ability to read and react in conjunction with Brady is his biggest attribute.

Our offense is all about timing, and chemistry--with the ability to improvise. While Calvin Johnson etc may have a different skillset, they cannot do the things that Wes can do either; therefore it becomes a wash in my opinion.

He also has quite a knack for making guys miss with some nifty juke moves, and has not shown any sign of slowing down up to this point in time. The potential hold up in the negotiations has been the length of the pact, at least in my opinion. It would seem that Welker would be looking for his one chance at a major payday, while the NEP are focused on paying for expected production based on previous numbers of WR's who are 31+. Obviously a lessened stance for both sides will likely get a deal done in time for TC.

This offense has been tailored to suit the strengths of our HOF QB, making his decisions quicker and with less chance of taking long, deep drops as in the Randy Moss era. While this is fine to do from time to time and we should see this more with Lloyd here, it also has the ability to cut a QB's life shorter by increasing his tendency to take a game or career changing hit.

There's no doubt that the offense would change dramatically for the worse, although I still believe that we'd be able to stay competitive and make the playoffs. I can't see any benefit to trading 83 for the chance on hitting for a young rookie WR, as we already have a very sure thing.

Joker · Apr 24, 2012

You are just plain nuts....the Patriots run three, four and five wide sets multiple times a game...log off, you're bleeding from all orifices.

Mystery Pats Fan · Apr 24, 2012

Joker said:
I'm not making anything personal. Personally, you can say any wingnut thing you like as long as you don't try to make everyone else believe what you are saying is TRUE. Now you KNOW what you posted earlier in this thread. You KNOW you stated as FACT that a slot receiver is different from a WR. You have been SHOWN the official Patriot roster from the team site, delineating Welker as a WR, and you come back with this intergalactically moronic "well, they MAY call them slot receivers in the future!!"...yeah , and YOU may admit you are wrong about something...but I doubt it...your particular kind of message board persona is well known on the net...I'd expect you to be an official high up in some nutbag organization like the Flat Earth Society, after reading your work in this thread.

THEY DESIGNATE HIM as a wide receiver because officially there is nothing else that they can call him. But once the game starts and he is in the slot, then he is called the slot receiver by every one in the booth. I am sure you have heard that.

And, you seem to prefer to make things personal instead of two way debate.

The question was, originally, who is the best wide receiver. And, my answer is, and I am not alone, that Welker is not the best wide receiver as far as positional naming goes. He is a slot receiver and his job is very different than what we all have gotten to be known as wide receivers....and what they do that the slot receiver does not do.

It is impossible to compare what Welker does, or did, when Randy Moss was out at wide receiver, or any of the other wide receivers in recent years. Their jobs are entirely different. Debate that, if you care to.

Now, maybe the NFL needs to think about making a change and change the slot receivers position into SWR or SR, just as they changed it from "end" to wide receiver....and who is to say that someday that may happen, or not.

Mystery Pats Fan · Apr 24, 2012

supafly said:
I get the debate regarding slot WR etc, but it this current system it really doesn't matter. As many have pointed out, Welker is indeed our most important WR, as his ability to read and react in conjunction with Brady is his biggest attribute.

Our offense is all about timing, and chemistry--with the ability to improvise. While Calvin Johnson etc may have a different skillset, they cannot do the things that Wes can do either; therefore it becomes a wash in my opinion.

He also has quite a knack for making guys miss with some nifty juke moves, and has not shown any sign of slowing down up to this point in time. The potential hold up in the negotiations has been the length of the pact, at least in my opinion. It would seem that Welker would be looking for his one chance at a major payday, while the NEP are focused on paying for expected production based on previous numbers of WR's who are 31+. Obviously a lessened stance for both sides will likely get a deal done in time for TC.

This offense has been tailored to suit the strengths of our HOF QB, making his decisions quicker and with less chance of taking long, deep drops as in the Randy Moss era. While this is fine to do from time to time and we should see this more with Lloyd here, it also has the ability to cut a QB's life shorter by increasing his tendency to take a game or career changing hit.

There's no doubt that the offense would change dramatically for the worse, although I still believe that we'd be able to stay competitive and make the playoffs. I can't see any benefit to trading 83 for the chance on hitting for a young rookie WR, as we already have a very sure thing.

I would not be surprised to see the Pats play a waiting game with Welker.

The Pats might be of the belief, which might be the correct one, that Welker will not draw a lot of attention, if any at all, because of the price tag and most teams believing that what he accomplishes in New England can not be accomplished with another team with a different philosophy on offense and, of course, without Tom Brady.

I believe that may very well happen, and if it does, the team will have the upper hand in the negotiations. That might, as others, including me, have suggest that a blockbuster trade could be in the near future....

ausbacker · Apr 25, 2012

Mystery Pats Fan said:
Remove the word "wide" from the sentence highlighted and I will agree with you.

So, let me ask you a question. If at the start of a game, the Pats put out Lloyd split wide on the right, and Stallworth split wide on the left, with Welker in the slot.....officially Lloyd and Stallworth would be the wide receivers on the play and must be on the line of scrimmage.... so what would Welker be on that play no matter where he was positioned, as long as he was off of the line of scrimmage and inside of the two wideouts? What is Welker?

A team can only have two players on the field at the same time designated as "wide receiver" and on the line of scrimmage.

Now, on occasion, one of those wide outs can take a step back and another eligible player, can move into position on the line of scrimmage, as long as they are outside of the five linemen....Now who are the wide receivers?

I await your answers.

I think you need to have a read of the most recent NFL Rule book. To save time, I've linked it for you.

Mystery Pats Fan · Apr 25, 2012

Joker said:
You are just plain nuts....the Patriots run three, four and five wide sets multiple times a game...log off, you're bleeding from all orifices.

Still cant debate it can you? Instead you just make it personal. Thats the sign of one who know he has been beaten. Keep exposing your inadequacies, they certainly do show.

Any shrink will tell you that a person who refuses to debate issues and instead goes after an adversary in a personal manner is just a person who has no answers and believes that making it personal makes him the winner. unfortunately, the shrink disagrees with that thought and I am sure there is a medical term for it... You need some help. Want a referral?

Mystery Pats Fan · Apr 25, 2012

ausbacker said:
I think you need to have a read of the most recent NFL Rule book. To save time, I've linked it for you.

you just sent seven pages. Identify the part you would like read.

ausbacker · Apr 25, 2012

Mystery Pats Fan said:
you just sent seven pages. Identify the part you would like read.

When you put forward a proposal about the line of scrimmage and two "outside" receivers and one "inside" receiver, it's fairly obvious what you should be reading. Then again, it's not like we didn't see the exact proposition you've put forward with Chad Ochocinco and the receivers given the LOS penalty during the completed 2011 season is it?

Quit being disingenuous.

Joker · Apr 25, 2012

Mystery Pats Fan said:
Still cant debate it can you? Instead you just make it personal. Thats the sign of one who know he has been beaten. Keep exposing your inadequacies, they certainly do show.

Any shrink will tell you that a person who refuses to debate issues and instead goes after an adversary in a personal manner is just a person who has no answers and believes that making it personal makes him the winner. unfortunately, the shrink disagrees with that thought and I am sure there is a medical term for it... You need some help. Want a referral?

a referral? to the hack YOU'VE obviously been seeing? why would I want to waste money on a quack?

tell you what...when you show me that 2+2 = 5, I'll argue your "slot receiver is not a wide receiver theory"...that is, if YOU can find the time...because you will have obviously DISPROVED the mathematical concept that [1] is a subset of [1,2,3,4,5] and proven that the exact opposite is true, that[1,2,3,4,5] is a subset of [1]. Until that climactic day, I will continue to believe you are a space alien refugee from Planet Moron.

Mystery Pats Fan · Apr 25, 2012

Joker said:
a referral? to the hack YOU'VE obviously been seeing? why would I want to waste money on a quack?

tell you what...when you show me that 2+2 = 5, I'll argue your "slot receiver is not a wide receiver theory"...that is, if YOU can find the time...because you will have obviously DISPROVED the mathematical concept that [1] is a subset of [1,2,3,4,5] and proven that the exact opposite is true, that[1,2,3,4,5] is a subset of [1]. Until that climactic day, I will continue to believe you are a space alien refugee from Planet Moron.

First of all, we all know that 2+2 does not +5, it equals 6.

And I am tired because it is already after 1AM and I am going to bed. Will continue this "discussion" tomorrow.

Ron Sellers · Apr 25, 2012

Mystery Pats Fan said:
Not accurate at all. I merely pointed out that there are TWO wide receivers legally on the field at the same time. The others are in the slot and are generally referred to as the slot receiver, and the position can be played by any player wearing a legitimate number, single digit, teens, twenties, thirties, forties and eighties.

Now, if you are not in agreement with that, it would be very simple for you to state your point and debate the issue, rather than making it personal, which seems to be the trend around here.

Not debating with myself at all, merely pointing out the facts as I believe them to be.

As I said, if you, or anyone else, disagrees, make your point as opposed to copping out with something personal that is not relevant to the thread, or the discussion.

If you can not, or will not, discuss and debate your position, then it is obvious that you can not and are admitting that I am correct.

You didn't answer my previous response about what you would define as "best", but apparently you avoided that to focus on the semantics of what is and is not a wide receiver. Please let us know what position the NFL and their referees officially consider Welker to have been playing all these years. The last time I checked split ends, flankers and slot receivers were all wide receivers. Since those first two designations have become obsolete I'm unsure why the sudden urge to resuscitate the three distinct categories.

You do imply that there are two "wide" receivers that are more or less the starters, and the person that occupies the slot position is just some sort of extra that only gets on the field on a rare occasion. Perhaps you could explain then that this part-timer was on the field for more offensive plays than any other "true" wide receiver, tight end or running back - i.e., any player that handled the ball other than Brady - with the lone exception of another player that was not a "wide receiver", Rob Gronkowski?

Or maybe his contributions don't count either?

Final '11 offensive snap counts - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

PATRIOTSFANINPA · Apr 25, 2012

Don't get me wrong because I love little Wes,but if Wes knows what's best for him it would be to sign and finish his Career here.

I definitely think Wes is who he is now because of who is throwing him the ball and the team he has been a part of.

If Wes was a receiver on just about every other team in the NFL,he is an average joe with about 400 to 600 yards receiving and no one would be even talking about him......Wes is a beneficiary of being a member of the Patriots and in no way would he even come close elsewhere to what he has accomplished here.

If Wes leaves NE,it's a mistake on his part because it's all going to be downhill IMO.

Ron Sellers · Apr 25, 2012

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:
Don't get me wrong because I love little Wes,but if Wes knows what's best for him it would be to sign and finish his Career here.

I definitely think Wes is who he is now because of who is throwing him the ball and the team he has been a part of.

If Wes was a receiver on just about every other team in the NFL,he is an average joe with about 400 to 600 yards receiving and no one would be even talking about him......Wes is a beneficiary of being a member of the Patriots and in no way would he even come close elsewhere to what he has accomplished here.

If Wes leaves NE,it's a mistake on his part because it's all going to be downhill IMO.

For some reason I do believe that Green Bay, New Orleans, Denver, and several other teams would figure out a way to get more than 400 yards out of Wes Welker if he happened to be on their roster.

Yes, his best fit is on the Patriots - but let's not overstate his skill set and pretend that this is the only place that could figure out a way to get more than 25 yards per game out of him.

condon84 · Apr 25, 2012

While it might seem highly unlikely that Welker gets traded, I'm not going to rule it out and will not be surprised if he does get traded. He is on the other side of 30, his role in the offense where he is most effective (in the short/intermediate middle part of the field) is also where Hernandez is most effective. Welker is not indispensable. IMO Brady is the main reason why Welker became an elite receiver. Welker is a hard worker and a great teammate, but I think some of you are overlooking Brady and this offense's role in making Welker look great.

PATRIOTSFANINPA · Apr 25, 2012

Ron Sellers said:
For some reason I do believe that Green Bay, New Orleans, Denver, and several other teams would figure out a way to get more than 400 yards out of Wes Welker if he happened to be on their roster.

Yes, his best fit is on the Patriots - but let's not overstate his skill set and pretend that this is the only place that could figure out a way to get more than 25 yards per game out of him.

I did say 'on just about every team',but yeah QBs like Brees,Manning and Rodgers would be only 3 of the other 31 teams where Wes would be more than average.....still NE is best for him because Brady and Wes have had something special for 5 years now.

Deus Irae · Apr 25, 2012

Ron Sellers said:
For some reason I do believe that Green Bay, New Orleans, Denver, and several other teams would figure out a way to get more than 400 yards out of Wes Welker if he happened to be on their roster.

Yes, his best fit is on the Patriots - but let's not overstate his skill set and pretend that this is the only place that could figure out a way to get more than 25 yards per game out of him.

Welker, while still clearly improving at age 25, and in his final year with the Dolphins, led his team with 67 receptions and had 687 yards receiving with Joey Harrington, Cleo Lemon and Daunte Culpepper's corpse at quarterback, despite only starting 2 games and being behind Chambers and Booker on the theoretical depth chart. So, and I'm sure that I'm not saying anything here that you don't already know, anyone telling you that Welker would be a 400 yard receiver anywhere else can be disregarded as a serious football poster.

PATRIOTSFANINPA · Apr 25, 2012

condon84 said:
While it might seem highly unlikely that Welker gets traded, I'm not going to rule it out and will not be surprised if he does get traded. He is on the other side of 30, his role in the offense where he is most effective (in the short/intermediate middle part of the field) is also where Hernandez is most effective. Welker is not indispensable. IMO Brady is the main reason why Welker became an elite receiver. Welker is a hard worker and a great teammate, but I think some of you are overlooking Brady and this offense's role in making Welker look great.

That's exactly my sentiments

Brady has made Wes the receiver he is today and both work together like peanut butter and chocolate.

ausbacker · Apr 25, 2012

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:
That's exactly my sentiments

Brady has made Wes the receiver he is today and both work together like peanut butter and chocolate.

In the same token, Brady's numbers have gone through the roof since Wes Welker and more skilled position players were put around him. The argument goes both ways.

It aggravates me that people can't or similarly dismiss the notion that good players can make good players great players. They aren't mutually exclusive.

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