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#1 Need - Wide Receiver


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Yea, there we go. Maybe that explains why

Rd2 2006 Trading up for Chad Jackson(one year wonder at UF with 88 of 106 catches) over Greg Jennings(238 receptions at Western Mich)

Rd3 2009 picking ACL+MCL torn Brandon Tate from UNC over Mike Wallace(next pick after Tate)

Rd2 2010 Another gem in Taylor Price

Yeah. SEC>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC.

Tate was more polished coming out of UNC than Wallace. Wallace is still an only deep threat WR. He still runs sloppy routes. He still rarely runs inside routes.

Also, Tate ran back punts and kicks in College. ST value trumped Tate over Wallce.
 
While your overall point has some validity, it ignores the times when the "should have" makes perfect sense. Trading up for Jackson when Jennings was available, choosing Tate over Wallace, drafting O'Connell.... decisions like those are fair game. I've defended the Tate gamble in the past, and I'll never hold it against the Patriots, but let's not pretend that the O'Connell pick was anything but stupid, just to point to one obvious example (and, yes, I was against it at the time).

TBH, if you asked me, "What was the worst pick made in 2008?" I'd have to say the answer was easily Shawn Crable.

QBs are so valuable in this league that I can't fault the Pats for picking what could be a very valuable commodity. That said, I do wonder whether the problem was a massive scouting failure, or simply O'Connell pining for McDaniels after he left for the Broncos. O'Connell was allegedly getting some glowing reviews early in 2009.
 
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Consider this: in his first ten years with the Patriots Belichick drafted Dave Stachelski, Arthur Love, Jabari Hollaway, Daniel Graham, Ben Watson, Andy Stokes and David Thomas as tight ends, as well as Garrett Mills who was a FB/H-back/TE.

Of all those players the only ones that amounted to anything were Watson and Graham, and neither of them really lived up to first-round pick expectations.

So based on your logic Belichick should have therefore stopped drafting tight ends at that point, and not drafted any tight ends in 2010.

Do you really think that would have been a good idea?

homerun1.jpg
 
Yeah. SEC>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC.

Tate was more polished coming out of UNC than Wallace. Wallace is still an only deep threat WR. He still runs sloppy routes. He still rarely runs inside routes.

Also, Tate ran back punts and kicks in College. ST value trumped Tate over Wallce.

at least your firm in your stance. Its easy to say who was a bad pick compared to whom... i mean everyone in the league passed on Desean Jackson, half twice. But Im sure you'd say he's lazy and just a deep threat and wont go accross the middle. You do realize you have welker, gronk and hernandez for that right?... You'd be a fool to not want Wallace on your team, regardless of who you are a fan of.
 
at least your firm in your stance. Its easy to say who was a bad pick compared to whom... i mean everyone in the league passed on Desean Jackson, half twice. But Im sure you'd say he's lazy and just a deep threat and wont go accross the middle. You do realize you have welker, gronk and hernandez for that right?... You'd be a fool to not want Wallace on your team, regardless of who you are a fan of.

This is an option based offense. Every WR plays the X spot. They have to run all the routes. Hence why he got rid of Moss. The only inside route he ran was a quick slant and once in a game crossing pattern.

That's why we traded for Deion Branch. Because he could occasionally run deep and run inside.

And I didn't say he was lazy. I said he runs sloppy routes. That's route running. A major requirement for all our WR. Stop putting words in my mouth.
 
And I didn't say he was lazy. I said he runs sloppy routes. Stop putting words in my mouth.

i'd say lazy routes and sloppy routes are pretty darn close to the same thing...

Plus i was referring to DJax, someone you didnt mention, but made that assumption based on your critique of Wallace. But hey, not trying to get in an argument over two of the most dynamic WR in the game today...

you wouldnt want Wallace on the Patriots, given the opportunity to redraft?

WR taken before Wallace in '09:

Robiskie, Massaquoi, Williams, Tate... all busts

Heyward-Bey, Crabtree, Britt... fair to middling at this point in their careers.

Maclin, Nicks, Harvin... good to great

Aside from Nicks, there is not one receiver i would rather have on any team in any system before taking Wallace.
 
i'd say lazy routes and sloppy routes are pretty darn close to the same thing...
No. Running lazy routes is what Moss did vs the Jets in the first game 2nd half in 2010 and vs the Fins in 2010. Few games in 2009.

Running sloppy routes is when a WR runs too wide off either the hashmarks or the sidelines, thus taking him a tad sec late in cutting in or out. It's like the (I think it was Mario Manningham in the SB on the right side) who ran a go route and instead of maintaining a 7 yard lateral depth from the sidelines, he ran a go route as a 40 yard fade route thus resulting in an in completion. If he had maintained proper lateral depth, that would have been a catch inside Pats territory.
It's also when you are suppose to stop (say 10 yard hitch) 10 yards on a 3rd and 10 but instead stops 8 yards. It destroys a QB to WR connection and can lead to a turnover or a knockdown.

Heck in the SB vs the Saints, Reggie Wayne, a great route runner, ran a sloppy quick in route and gave up inside leverage. Because of that, the ball got INT'd for pick 6.

Route running is a Major requirement for any Pats WR. Take a look at the Tiquann Underwood int vs the Redskins, He was suppose to run a deep in and gain inside leverage. He didn't and Brady for some reason decided to throw the ball and it got int'd.

Plus i was referring to DJax, someone you didnt mention, but made that assumption based on your critique of Wallace. But hey, not trying to get in an argument over two of the most dynamic WR in the game today...

DJAX is another sloppy route runner. A malcontent who really seem to be not the smartest tool in the box. I highly doubt he could learn how to run a coverage based offense.
Pass on him.
you wouldnt want Wallace on the Patriots, given the opportunity to redraft?

Hindsight is 20/20. I could do this all day.
Again, go back to the 2009 draft.
Tate was more polished coming out of UNC than Wallace. Wallace is still an only deep threat WR. He still runs sloppy routes. He still rarely runs inside routes. Tate played ST in college. Wallace did not.

Given the info at that time, I would still take Tate over Wallace.

WR taken before Wallace in '09:

Robiskie, Massaquoi, Williams, Tate... all busts

Heyward-Bey, Crabtree, Britt... fair to middling at this point in their careers.

Maclin, Nicks, Harvin... good to great

Aside from Nicks, there is not one receiver i would rather have on any team in any system before taking Wallace.
Hindsight being 20/20, I would take Nicks first (he runs inside routes while running deep routes) and then Maclin. Then Wallace.
But if we had taken Nicks or Maclin in the 1st round, you would have lost the 2nd round selection from the 2010 draft. A selection that later was Rob Gronk.

You could counter with "Oh we could have traded up that time". I'm not sure. If we had done that, We probably have to give up a future 2011 1st round pick (Solder or what became a 2012 1st round pick) or 2 2nd round picks in 2010. You lose Spikes and semi useless JC.
Pass.
And Tate was a 3rd round picks. 3rd round picks tend to be project players.
 
No. Running lazy routes is what Moss did vs the Jets in the first game 2nd half in 2010 and vs the Fins in 2010. Few games in 2009.

Running sloppy routes is when a WR runs too wide off either the hashmarks or the sidelines, thus taking him a tad sec late in cutting in or out. It's like the (I think it was Mario Manningham in the SB on the right side) who ran a go route and instead of maintaining a 7 yard lateral depth from the sidelines, he ran a go route as a 40 yard fade route thus resulting in an in completion. If he had maintained proper lateral depth, that would have been a catch inside Pats territory.
It's also when you are suppose to stop (say 10 yard hitch) 10 yards on a 3rd and 10 but instead stops 8 yards. It destroys a QB to WR connection and can lead to a turnover or a knockdown.

Heck in the SB vs the Saints, Reggie Wayne, a great route runner, ran a sloppy quick in route and gave up inside leverage. Because of that, the ball got INT'd for pick 6.

Route running is a Major requirement for any Pats WR. Take a look at the Tiquann Underwood int vs the Redskins, He was suppose to run a deep in and gain inside leverage. He didn't and Brady for some reason decided to throw the ball and it got int'd.



DJAX is another sloppy route runner. A malcontent who really seem to be not the smartest tool in the box. I highly doubt he could learn how to run a coverage based offense.
Pass on him.


Hindsight is 20/20. I could do this all day.
Again, go back to the 2009 draft.
Tate was more polished coming out of UNC than Wallace. Wallace is still an only deep threat WR. He still runs sloppy routes. He still rarely runs inside routes. Tate played ST in college. Wallace did not.

Given the info at that time, I would still take Tate over Wallace.


Hindsight being 20/20, I would take Nicks first (he runs inside routes while running deep routes) and then Maclin. Then Wallace.
But if we had taken Nicks or Maclin in the 1st round, you would have lost the 2nd round selection from the 2010 draft. A selection that later was Rob Gronk.

You could counter with "Oh we could have traded up that time". I'm not sure. If we had done that, We probably have to give up a future 2011 1st round pick (Solder or what became a 2012 1st round pick) or 2 2nd round picks in 2010. You lose Spikes and semi useless JC.
Pass.
And Tate was a 3rd round picks. 3rd round picks tend to be project players.

At the end of the day, I think the biggest obstacle for WR's is that we run a lot of option routes.

Option routes require a WR to read the defense and based on the coverage run the correct option off of the existing route. It is very hard for rookies to do this correctly. And even when they do finally learn how to do this, it will be two or more years down the line.

Therefore I suggest we use our free agency $ for a smart veteran WR or two that can run the correct route. There is no doubt in my mind that Branch runs the correct routes, but let's face the facts, he can not separate anymore. Age and injuries have robbed him of his burst.

We franchise Welker and sign someone like Lloyd or Wayne that can step in right away and build chemistry with Brady. PS: No WR's that are not intelligent enough to run correct option routes ,ie: Ochosucko, allowed.

Bottom line is we need WR help NOW and rookies take too much time and have a high flame out rate.
 
At the end of the day, I think the biggest obstacle for WR's is that we run a lot of option routes.

Option routes require a WR to read the defense and based on the coverage run the correct option off of the existing route. It is very hard for rookies to do this correctly. And even when they do finally learn how to do this, it will be two or more years down the line.

Therefore I suggest we use our free agency $ for a smart veteran WR or two that can run the correct route. There is no doubt in my mind that Branch runs the correct routes, but let's face the facts, he can not separate anymore. Age and injuries have robbed him of his burst.

We franchise Welker and sign someone like Lloyd or Wayne that can step in right away and build chemistry with Brady. PS: No WR's that are not intelligent enough to run correct option routes ,ie: Ochosucko, allowed.

Bottom line is we need WR help NOW and rookies take too much time and have a high flame out rate.

Agree. Though Kendell Wright played in a similar system.
 
Agree. Though Kendell Wright played in a similar system.

Yes Baylor has their WR running option routes, and that gives him a huge leg up on the competition,but also remember that they had a running QB and that less than half his throws were from a traditional pocket like Brady throws from.

Wright's greatest attribute was running to an open spot when the defense broke down as Griffin started running. Not sure to what degree what Wright did in college will work in our offense, but if I were Carolina, I would be drooling to get this kid to work with Newton since Smith is getting old.
 
Yes Baylor has their WR running option routes, and that gives him a huge leg up on the competition,but also remember that they had a running QB and that less than half his throws were from a traditional pocket like Brady throws from.

Wright's greatest attribute was running to an open spot when the defense broke down as Griffin started running. Not sure to what degree what Wright did in college will work in our offense, but if I were Carolina, I would be drooling to get this kid to work with Newton since Smith is getting old.

Do you know how many vids are there of Wright?

If there isn't much, I might restart my video work and start making vids of him if I have any Baylor games.
 
Do you know how many vids are there of Wright?

If there isn't much, I might restart my video work and start making vids of him if I have any Baylor games.

A couple good videos of him, but a ton on Griffin and you know who Griffin is throwing to on quite a few plays per video.

PS: There is a lot of video on Griffin running and you see Wright blocking on the outside for him. Another reason Carolina would be nuts to pass on this kid.
 
A couple good videos of him, but a ton on Griffin and you know who Griffin is throwing to on quite a few plays per video.

PS: There is a lot of video on Griffin running and you see Wright blocking on the outside for him. Another reason Carolina would be nuts to pass on this kid.

In my mocks, I don't have him falling past Jacksonville. just seems like a Gene Smith kind of guy. I saw one scout say how much Kendall Wright bailed out RGIII last year and he might be just the help Gabbert needs. YAC and screens will help Gabbert find his feet.
 
Greg Bedard has an article which in part focuses on the difficulties of the Patriots passing offence. There's nothing really revelatory but I think it boils things down nicely and demonstrates just why it's so tough for new WR's to fit in here:

We all know the struggles that receiver Chad Ochocinco had in assimilating into the Patriots offense, and that puts his future with the team in doubt.

Receivers coach Chad O’Shea related some of the complexities with the offense that can make things difficult for a new receiver.

“At times, there are four decisions that a receiver needs to make after the snap the way our offense is,’’ O’Shea said. “That’s one of the advantages of our offense, that we give players a lot of flexibility within the system to take what the defense gives us. And that’s definitely something that’s unique about our offense.’’

Recognizing blitzes is something receivers have to do as well. They often have to break off their route if a defense sends extra players.

“It’s on everybody,’’ O’Shea said. “We always say we need to see everything through the same set of eyes. So receivers have responsibilities in blitz, we have responsibilities in our route conversions, and the most important thing is the quarterback and receiver have to be on the same page. That’s why it takes time.’’

Playing with a veteran quarterback like Tom Brady is also an issue.

“They have a quarterback that has played within the same system for a number of years, so he’s so advanced within the system and you have players trying to play within the same system,’’ O’Shea said.

“Tom’s level of advancement in the system is a difference to the new player because he moves fast and they need to move fast with him.’’

I don't know what the answer is, or just how advanced our system is compared to others. I mean could Torrey Smith, to take one example, have had success within the system when Ochocinco didn't? Why did Hernandez and Gronk fit in so quickly when almost any drafted WR doesn't seem able too.

Obviouusly this system has created a huge amount of success over the years and we have a QB who's become a master (great passer, he is) but have we optioned ourselves into a corner where finding talent becomes next to impossible. Perhaps instead of WR 40 times, we should be looking at their wonderlic scores (half-joking).
 
Greg Bedard has an article which in part focuses on the difficulties of the Patriots passing offence. There's nothing really revelatory but I think it boils things down nicely and demonstrates just why it's so tough for new WR's to fit in here:...

And another interesting piece from nepatriotsdraft.com, looking at WR picks since 2002:

Something that is somewhat baffling to me is why the Patriots draft some of the receivers they do. The Patriots run a precision passing offensive built on quick decisions, option routes and reading coverages.

The Patriots seem to be drafting WRs based on projection rather than what they can ACTUALLY do. It’s also apparent that the Patriots heavily weigh a receiver’s ability to return kicks and tend to shy away from guys who can’t....

For a team that values production at the college level highly, they certainly don’t weigh that heavily at the WR spot. Each WR drafted has had some sort of question mark on them and was taken over much more productive college receivers.

The author has some stuff on what the Pats should do in assessing and drafting receivers; guys who he says could help them are:

Notre Dame WR Michael Floyd
Arkansas WR Joe Adams
Rutgers WR Mohamed Sanu
Toledo WR Eric Page
WMU WR Jordan White
Iowa WR Marvin McNutt
Arkasas WR Jarius Wright
 
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And another interesting piece from nepatriotsdraft.com, looking at WR picks since 2002:



The author has some stuff on what the Pats should do in assessing and drafting receivers; guys who he says could help them are:

Notre Dame WR Michael Floyd
Arkansas WR Joe Adams
Rutgers WR Mohamed Sanu
Toledo WR Eric Page
WMU WR Jordan White
Iowa WR Marvin McNutt
Arkasas WR Jarius Wright

With a lot of work I could see Jarius Wright someday taking over for Welker. Same type of frame, really quick nice hands but with blazing speed to stretch the field. He could certainly be a option in the 4th or later. Got a feeling his combine is going to move him up though.
 
And another interesting piece from nepatriotsdraft.com, looking at WR picks since 2002:



The author has some stuff on what the Pats should do in assessing and drafting receivers; guys who he says could help them are:

Notre Dame WR Michael Floyd
Arkansas WR Joe Adams
Rutgers WR Mohamed Sanu
Toledo WR Eric Page
WMU WR Jordan White
Iowa WR Marvin McNutt
Arkasas WR Jarius Wright

1. It's all about value. BB wants to find the diamond in the rough and all the characteristics Mike Loyko says the Patriots should target is the same characteristic every GM in the NFL is targeting; hence no value. Maybe the need at the position will lead to a sea change in the way BB looks at WR but I'm not overly hopeful.

2. I think Sanu best encompasses the physical characteristics described in the article but as a borderline 1st rounder, I'm worried BB won't see the value.

3. The one good thing though is that this is such a deep class there could well be value to be had. Devier Posey, Ryan Broyles, Greg Childs, Marvin Jones all have good upside but all may fall due to the depth in class.
 
...I don't know what the answer is, or just how advanced our system is compared to others. I mean could Torrey Smith, to take one example, have had success within the system when Ochocinco didn't? Why did Hernandez and Gronk fit in so quickly when almost any drafted WR doesn't seem able too.

Obviouusly this system has created a huge amount of success over the years and we have a QB who's become a master (great passer, he is) but have we optioned ourselves into a corner where finding talent becomes next to impossible. Perhaps instead of WR 40 times, we should be looking at their wonderlic scores (half-joking).

I think the answer is going to be re-signing Welker and Branch, bringing in an established veteran (i.e. Lloyd, Wayne, etc...) and drafting a WR in round 1 or 2. The veteran will have all offseason to get everything down, and the receiver can be allowed to learn at an easier pace. A guy like Jefferey (Just an example) could be groomed behind the Lloyd-style player, while a guy like Adams could be groomed behind Branch.

That's just my feeling, combined with what I've read from people like Reiss.
 
Please no; not another Patriots WR pick(s). No no no...
Ugh this is like a train wreck in slow motion; you know it is going to happen and there is nothing we can do about it...ugh. We can only hope that BB goes the Free Agent route instead....ha
 
Please no; not another Patriots WR pick(s). No no no...
Ugh this is like a train wreck in slow motion; you know it is going to happen and there is nothing we can do about it...ugh. We can only hope that BB goes the Free Agent route instead....ha

I'm assuming you missed this post:

Consider this: in his first ten years with the Patriots Belichick drafted Dave Stachelski, Arthur Love, Jabari Hollaway, Daniel Graham, Ben Watson, Andy Stokes and David Thomas as tight ends, as well as Garrett Mills who was a FB/H-back/TE.

Of all those players the only ones that amounted to anything were Watson and Graham, and neither of them really lived up to first-round pick expectations.

So based on your logic Belichick should have therefore stopped drafting tight ends at that point, and not drafted any tight ends in 2010.

Do you really think that would have been a good idea?
 
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