Eli over Brady?

Pat Kirwin isn't a HOF voter. Every year the guys who are engage in pretty heated debate because a limited number of slots are available. Jim Plunkett won 2 Super Bowls. He isn't in. Coughlin isn't an innovator and he's nearly lost teams including this one more than once.

If and when Eli's name enters the discussion they will look at his body of work (total yards/TD/INT ratio/CP/Career QBR) and see if he was an elite player over an extended period of time in comparison to his peers. To date his stats don't measure up. With guys like his brother (record stat man with a ring) and Brees (record stat man with a ring) and Rogers (also potentially prolific stats - but he has to do it over time) and Brady (rings, trips and stats) contending in the same time frame, not to mention some potential contenders like Bradford and Luck possibly emerging on the horizen as Eli enters his back 9...and of course the Rapist who already has 2... Eli would need a lot better stats and some awards (a league MVP, a passing title, something) to be a lock. You don't get in just for winning a Lombardi or even two unless you have the stats and individual honors and body of work to match. Eli's got more INT's than games started through 8 seasons...he's only made the pro bowl twice and never been an all pro.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

meyerbudNYG said:

i couldn't find the thread where I was debating with u guys all last week about Eli and told you that if we win this week that hes going into the hall of fame:

Listened to Pat Kirwan on satellite radio and he's writing an article to be released tomorrow and he's talking about the Hall of Fame and what it takes to get in there. I think it's going to be on NFL.com. He said "looking at performance and numbers and who's in there, you cannot argue with this: win and they're in- Eli and Tom Coughlin, you cannot make a case against what they have pulled off". Also in his "crystal ball" looking at young talent, for where he is, JPP is beating Bruce Smith's numbers his first two seasons and said "it's a LONG way off, but given his start, he keeps it up, you're looking at a future HOF'er for sure."

Pat Kirwan is pretty neutral and respectable no?

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Is Pat Kirwan considered to be neutral and respectable? Yes.

I would say that while there is a very good chance both would go in, neither is a lock. Even with two championships I still think Eli Manning needs a couple more well-above average years. There is precedent for this: Jim Plunkett (another #1 overall pick) is 2-0 in Super Bowls and 8-2 overall in the playoffs. He's not in the HoF, and I doubt he's ever going to get in unless he buys a ticket. The reason for that is because he only had about four or five good years; that may be enough for a RB, but that's not enough for a QB. Eli still needs to have a couple of very good years before we can assume he'll be in the HoF - and that's after assuming that the Giants win Sunday.

As for Coughlin, I would say that he is even less of a lock. There are a ton of head coaches with two or more championships to their credit that are not in the Hall of Fame. There are a dozen coaches with more wins than he has that are not in the Hall.

In spite of Kirwan's respected opinion, I think he is getting way ahead of himself to presume that both Eli and Coughlin are in the Hall of Fame if the Giants are able to win Sunday. He's getting even further ahead of himself for suggesting a second-year player is headed to Canton.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

Ron Sellers said:

Is Pat Kirwan considered to be neutral and respectable? Yes.

I would say that while there is a very good chance both would go in, neither is a lock. Even with two championships I still think Eli Manning needs a couple more well-above average years. There is precedent for this: Jim Plunkett (another #1 overall pick) is 2-0 in Super Bowls and 8-2 overall in the playoffs. He's not in the HoF, and I doubt he's ever going to get in unless he buys a ticket. The reason for that is because he only had about four or five good years; that may be enough for a RB, but that's not enough for a QB. Eli still needs to have a couple of very good years before we can assume he'll be in the HoF - and that's after assuming that the Giants win Sunday.

As for Coughlin, I would say that he is even less of a lock. There are a ton of head coaches with two or more championships to their credit that are not in the Hall of Fame. There are a dozen coaches with more wins than he has that are not in the Hall.

In spite of Kirwan's respected opinion, I think he is getting way ahead of himself to presume that both Eli and Coughlin are in the Hall of Fame if the Giants are able to win Sunday. He's getting even further ahead of himself for suggesting a second-year player is headed to Canton.

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Excellent points.

Reposting this but not sure if it was seen(last post on a page)

Kirwin wouldn't give the same credit to Rothlisberger who already had two rings

http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2011/despite-post-season-success-roethlisberger-second-tier-qb/
Despite Post-Season Success, Roethlisberger Second-Tier QB | Football News Now

It should be no surprise to Pittsburgh Steelers fans that when NFL.com’s Pat Kirwan put together a list to rank the league’s top quarterbacks, Ben Roethlisberger didn’t make the cut among the top five.

Despite being the youngest player to win the Super Bowl and reaching the NFL’s penultimate stage three times in seven seasons with two Lombardi Trophy wins, Roethlisberger was placed in Group B — a second group of five quarterbacks — with several players who haven’t won many playoff games let alone two Super Bowls. But that’s the usual story for Roethlisberger.

Kirwan writes that Roethlisberger is “a two-time Super Bowl champion (with) three appearances on Super Sunday during his seven-year career. The essence of a winner.” Yet Roethlisberger is lumped in with only one other quarterback who has a Super Bowl victory.

...and just for some perspective:

Kurt Warner wasn't ready to put Rothlisberger in the Hall of fame after he already had 2 rings and was going for his third.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/04/kurt-warner-roethlisberger-hall-of-fame_n_818634.html

Lots more work to do for Eli. Say a few years of consistancy, not just a couple of good years out of many.

Why should Eli get the fast track to the HOF? ...Cause he's a Manning???

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

meyerbudNYG said:

i couldn't find the thread where I was debating with u guys all last week about Eli and told you that if we win this week that hes going into the hall of fame:

Listened to Pat Kirwan on satellite radio and he's writing an article to be released tomorrow and he's talking about the Hall of Fame and what it takes to get in there. I think it's going to be on NFL.com. He said "looking at performance and numbers and who's in there, you cannot argue with this: win and they're in- Eli and Tom Coughlin, you cannot make a case against what they have pulled off". Also in his "crystal ball" looking at young talent, for where he is, JPP is beating Bruce Smith's numbers his first two seasons and said "it's a LONG way off, but given his start, he keeps it up, you're looking at a future HOF'er for sure."

Pat Kirwan is pretty neutral and respectable no?

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Part of the problem is that the Hall has limited space. In front of whom do you put Eli?

(potential HOF candidates from the draft classes around him)

From 2002 Draft:
Freeney - Slightly in favor of Freeney
Ed Reed - In before Eli

From 2003 Draft Class:
Polamalu - In before Eli
Asomghua - Toss up
Antonio Gates - Toss up with the way the TE game has evolved to erase his records, but probably still in before Eli

From his draft class:
Jared Allen - In before Eli
L Fitzgerald - Star is fading a bit out there in Arizona...maybe
Roethlisberger - Now you're probably up for a debate
Welker - Welker will be in before Eli

From 2005:
Rodgers - No way Eli beats him in
DeMarcus Ware - Ware will get in before Eli probably

From 2006:
Devin Hester - Lock, in before Eli
MJD - Eli will be in before him

Just some food for thought. That's not to mention all the WRs and QBs from previous years that are lining up to get in.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

good game gentlemen

told you not to sleep on Eli

It was a great game.

Eli had a good game but so did Brady. His receivers let him down on a few plays while Manning's receivers made the big plays.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

meyerbudNYG said:

good game gentlemen

told you not to sleep on Eli

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Agreed. Eli has passed Brady.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

g650 said:

Agreed. Eli has passed Brady.

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2 > 3

This is the kind of Wall Street math that has gotten this nation into so much financial trouble.

Thanks NY

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

upstater1 said:

2 > 3

This is the kind of Wall Street math that has gotten this nation into so much financial trouble.

Thanks NY

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I think if you polled most NFL execs they'd take Eli. Look at who wins?

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

g650 said:

I think if you polled most NFL execs they'd take Eli. Look at who wins?

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"You think"...that was your first mistake. Eli IS the hot choice right now because he has beaten Brady in the SB twice, but based on their body of work there is no comparison. Come see me when Eli is 34 and let's measure him up to Brady. Until then...too da loo.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

fair catch fryar said:

"You think"...that was your first mistake. Eli IS the hot choice right now because he has beaten Brady in the SB twice, but based on their body of work there is no comparison. Come see me when Eli is 34 and let's measure him up to Brady. Until then...too da loo.

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If your own radio station is saying it, it should tell you something. I'll revise my post to read "I know" that Eli is better.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

g650 said:

I think if you polled most NFL execs they'd take Eli. Look at who wins?

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What a laughable post. Brady wins. He's won more than Eli, and will continue to. Brady is the winningest regular season and playoff QB in NFL history.

The only thing Eli has on Brady is age, and that may be a consideration for some. If you had a need for one year only, 95% of GMs take Brady.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

g650 said:

If your own radio station is saying it, it should tell you something. I'll revise my post to read "I know" that Eli is better.

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Again proving your stupidity by placing any value form the talking heads on the radio. Thanks for the laugh. bahahaha

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

fair catch fryar said:

Again proving your stupidity by placing any value form the talking heads on the radio. Thanks for the laugh. bahahaha

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They're your Boston talking heads. I think that says it all.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

upstater1 said:

What a laughable post. Brady wins. He's won more than Eli, and will continue to. Brady is the winningest regular season and playoff QB in NFL history.

The only thing Eli has on Brady is age, and that may be a consideration for some. If you had a need for one year only, 95% of GMs take Brady.

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The only GM taking Brady is Billy. Eli has passed him. Most football fans see that.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

g650 said:

The only GM taking Brady is Billy. Eli has passed him. Most football fans see that.

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I cant say this is true.

If this is true, then he's passed his brother, which I still don't think he comes close too, he's better than Aaron Rodgers? Drew Brees?

There is no way in hell. Now if he comes back next season and does something similar, like not throwing 25 picks and missing the playoffs 2 seasons straight, then he may get my vote.

Consistency is what makes teams elite. Not to take anything away from Manning but not yet. Do it again next season and then maybe. Make the playoffs on a consistent basis, beat the Redskins.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

g650 said:

The only GM taking Brady is Billy. Eli has passed him. Most football fans see that.

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You are wrong.

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

fair catch fryar said:

"You think"...that was your first mistake. Eli IS the hot choice right now because he has beaten Brady in the SB twice, but based on their body of work there is no comparison. Come see me when Eli is 34 and let's measure him up to Brady. Until then...too da loo.

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So what if we win next next year and eli is 3/3... could i ask u then?

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

upstater1 said:

What a laughable post. Brady wins. He's won more than Eli, and will continue to. Brady is the winningest regular season and playoff QB in NFL history.

The only thing Eli has on Brady is age, and that may be a consideration for some. If you had a need for one year only, 95% of GMs take Brady.

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if ur aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle

Re: Eli vs Tom debate

meyerbudNYG said:

if ur aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle

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Speaking from experience? So what do you call her/him when you greet her/him? Ancle or Auntle?