McCourty Moving Forward: CB or S

This really impacts off season moves:

You peg McCourty as starting FS:

You need a corner to start opposite Arrington. Dowling / Moore should be good as your 3rd / 4th CB's. Still need a decent 5th cb prospect. You could also use a back-up better than Ihedigbo.

You peg McCourty as starting CB:

You need a starting FS next to Chung. You can use a better backup than Ihedigbo. Devin, Arrington, Dowling and Moore are 4 of your 5 cb's. Likely only a developmental 5th cb brought in.

The Market:

FA starter quality CB's:
Finnegan
Grimes
Carr - down year, IMO b/c Berry was out all year
Webb - would have to give up a pick
Rogers

FA starter quality FS's:
Goldson - we didn't want to pay what he wanted last year, not sure about this
year
Landry - injuries but great when healthy
Griffin

Round 1-2 CB's in Draft:
Clairborne - out of reach
Kirkpatrick - could be a steal if he falls
Gilmore
Minnifield
Jenkins
Dennard
Hosley

Round 1-2 FS's in Draft:
Barron - IMO can play FS
Lester
Martin
Iloka

While I'm probably missing somebody the overall picture is the market is much better at CB.

Arguments for McCourty at FS:

- Seems to see the ball better from this position
- Struggled many times at CB this season
- Defense has looked good with McCourty at FS

Arguments against McCourty at FS:

- Hasn't had a season of top end production at FS. Already had a season of top end production at CB.
- Has missed some tackles this year. The last thing we need is a FS who misses tackles.

My Take
I like him at FS moving forward. FS is one position where "do your job" is absolutely critical. We've all seen what an out of place safety can do to a D this year. After that it'd be nice to know that somebody back there will be in the right place.

I also believe more impact can be made from FS compared to CB. A good CB will limit or shutdown a certain player but that is partially negated here b/c our CB's generally stay on the same side of the field. A good FS on the other hand should be able to generate more turnovers. I'll take the turnovers over limiting a given player. McCourty is a film junkie with good hands and sub 4.4 speed meaning he should make a lot of picks.

McCourty generally takes his man down when he gets his hands on them but he had a few whiffs this year. I believe the missed tackles were because McCourty was already beaten in man coverage and therefore was out of position. He normally takes good angles running people down from behind. At FS he won't be out of position to start and therefore shouldn't have a problem.

Lastly is the market factor, which is rather self explanitory.

Nicely done. But a couple of points

1. A lot will depend what the Pats do in the off season. At this point its hard to think that the Pats will draft a Safety with one of their first 4 picks. Barron will begone before they pick, and with Lester, Armstrong, and McDonald all going back to school, there doesn't seem to be any other FS prospect worth of a first or second round pick.

2. I was at first against moving McCourty permanently to S, but in this day and age, safeties with good coverage skills are imperative. He is also a very sure tackler.

With Arrington showing he is a solid starter, Dowling coming back, if they draft another big CB with the one of the first 3 picks (Minnefield is my first choice), and Moore isn't a flash in the pan, then, BB would be free to move him permanently to FS

3. What is more likely though is BB keeping him predominantly at CB and occasionally using him in sub packages as a Safety. I think he needs to work this off season and in the OTAs on his press coverage techniques and he'll be back to the high level of play we saw last season. The short off season and the change in defense hurt him.

4. We have plenty of cap money. But if we are going to sign any FA's at all, I'd want it to be on a front line FS.

patfanken said:

Nicely done. But a couple of points

1. A lot will depend what the Pats do in the off season. At this point its hard to think that the Pats will draft a Safety with one of their first 4 picks. Barron will begone before they pick, and with Lester, Armstrong, and McDonald all going back to school, there doesn't seem to be any other FS prospect worth of a first or second round pick.

2. I was at first against moving McCourty permanently to S, but in this day and age, safeties with good coverage skills are imperative. He is also a very sure tackler.

With Arrington showing he is a solid starter, Dowling coming back, if they draft another big CB with the one of the first 3 picks (Minnefield is my first choice), and Moore isn't a flash in the pan, then, BB would be free to move him permanently to FS

3. What is more likely though is BB keeping him predominantly at CB and occasionally using him in sub packages as a Safety. I think he needs to work this off season and in the OTAs on his press coverage techniques and he'll be back to the high level of play we saw last season. The short off season and the change in defense hurt him.

4. We have plenty of cap money. But if we are going to sign any FA's at all, I'd want it to be on a front line FS.

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We do???

(voted cb)

I really like him at FS. With this free agent class and this draft class, it's going to be much easier to find a new CB than a new free safety.

@ay-yo

Very nicely done


My view is that we draft/sign at least one of both. Why does the decision have to be made a priori? Get both a starting potential CB and a safety in before camp and then see who fits best where during camp or as the season progresses if necessary.

I personally believe McCourty is better suited at FS for this team. The main reason being I think teams need the option/ability to play press man coverage in the current NFL. Being a passing league, and with the caliber of QB's now, I think playing only zone would be a disaster. Having two guys on the outside that have the ability to play press man would allow this team to match up better with certain teams. We saw the success that the Steelers had when they went against their normal coverage scheme and pressed the Pats recievers. I think the Pats hopefully have 1 guy that can do that in Dowling, and I think they should draft another this year (Janoris Jenkins, Chase Minnifield, Trumaine Johnson, Donnie Fletcher...). What we have seen from McCourty is that he doesn't have the ability to do that. He seems to have Darius Butler syndrome where he can't get his head around and locate the ball. What we do know however, is McCourty is much better at playing the ball in front of him, he has good ball skills, and for the most part he is a solid tackler. I think having him as primarily a FS could offer a huge amount of versatility to this team, because they can match up better, disguise coverages and also fill a major hole in the defence which would be difficult to fill through the 2012 draft or free agency. Given a full training camp at FS I think he can do a great job.

SeanBruschi54 said:

We do???

(voted cb)

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Not sure how reliable it is. But, NY Jets cap site has us at about 95m with salaries and dead money. Est cap is 122m. I think M.Wright retires and we cut Ochocinco. Saves us another 4m. So, by my poor math capabilities we have about 31m. There will be exceptions that allow us to go higher I'M sure such as; carry over from this year, Three 1M exceptions, etc.

Our free agents I'd like to keep are; Wes Welker, Dan Connolly, BJGE, Kyle Love, Mark Anderson, Matt Slater and a vet like G. Warren. I'm guessing those guys cost about 20m. Need to sign our rookies. Should have room for a couple of vets at S and WR. I'd pick Connolly over Koppen because he will probably cost less and give you similiar production and he's younger. I think we use the 3-4 more next year and Andre Carter isn't a great fit. Plus, he had a serious injury. If he's healthy and it looks like we need him in July. Might be a late signing. Doubt we re-up him in March. Not sure if D.Branch would want to come back or not. Don't think he gets more than 2m if he does return.

I voted CB. Looking at the FA options, I think some of the safeties can be had cheaper than the CBs - Finnegan's or Grimes' style of play would be well-suited to the pats' D but I think they are going to command a lot of money.

I think Griffin would be a solid, comparatively inexpensive option - his skillset is similar to that of Meriweather (i.e., a more coverage-oriented safety) which I think complements Chung's skillset better than Ihedigbo does. Looking at the other options, Landry and Dashon Goldson both have bigger "names" than Griffin, and he's really been out of the limelight since the 08-09 season but I think he can be a contributor on this team. I like Ihedigbo better as a third safety.

I think the lack of an off-season really hurt McCourty last year - I want him back at CB with a solid coverage safety behind him. I especially like the run support he can bring from the CB position. Obviously safeties provide run support too but when you can get it from the cb position it really is a great bonus.

If Mccourty is at CB, CB is then deep and there is a glaring hole at FS for next year.

If Mccourty is at FS, then there really isn't a glaring hole at CB with Arrington, Dowling, and Moore, but a depth signing or a second round pick would be needed. S in general wouldn't really be a need with Chung, Mccourty, and Ihedigbo. I feel Ihedigbo is good enough to be a #3 safety, but others may disagree.

That is why I want Mccourty at FS IF he can become a high level safety. If he can return to his 2010 CB form, then I welcome him there.

patfanken said:

Nicely done. But a couple of points

1. A lot will depend what the Pats do in the off season. At this point its hard to think that the Pats will draft a Safety with one of their first 4 picks. Barron will begone before they pick, and with Lester, Armstrong, and McDonald all going back to school, there doesn't seem to be any other FS prospect worth of a first or second round pick.

2. I was at first against moving McCourty permanently to S, but in this day and age, safeties with good coverage skills are imperative. He is also a very sure tackler.

With Arrington showing he is a solid starter, Dowling coming back, if they draft another big CB with the one of the first 3 picks (Minnefield is my first choice), and Moore isn't a flash in the pan, then, BB would be free to move him permanently to FS

3. What is more likely though is BB keeping him predominantly at CB and occasionally using him in sub packages as a Safety. I think he needs to work this off season and in the OTAs on his press coverage techniques and he'll be back to the high level of play we saw last season. The short off season and the change in defense hurt him.

4. We have plenty of cap money. But if we are going to sign any FA's at all, I'd want it to be on a front line FS.

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2. I agree that having a safety who excels in coverage is more important than previous years. More and more teams are looking to air it out and attack all areas of the field. In an ever changing league your defensive philosophy and personnel need to adjust accordingly.

3. I'll add injuries too. My memory says he was constantly on the injury report and likely playing below 100% for some games. Missing two games when your trying to figure things out certainly doesn't help. Hopefully he comes back a little stronger next season to help with press coverage.

I don't think we'll see McCourty playing both S and CB next year. We'll finalize our top 5 DB's (with 1 addition at either FS or CB) and let each player develop in their role. Communication is vital back there and the constant turnovers of players certainly doesn't help that.

4. I'd rather spend on a FS than a CB but I just don't see a guy worth the money at FS. I want a veteran to improve the secondary (so not a draft pick) as it's the weakest link to our team.

Barron is a true SS, to the point where's he's almost an extra LB in the box. And Lester is returning to Alabama, so that knocks your two top FSs off the board.

I dont really feel a need to declare McCourty's position. I hope we draft a few DBs, and then we can wait see how things play out. Regardless, Devin will be core to the secondary next year.

One last thing on Barron... if somehow he drops to us (impossible), it would be more likely to play him at SS and shift Chung to FS than the other way around.

Or, and here's the interesting idea, play a split safety scheme more in the mode of what BB presumably had in mind with Milloy and Harrison in the same backfield (until Milloy got cut), and later with Harrison and John Lynch (until Lynch got cut). Hard to get that kind of talent on the roster at once, especially these days with really few quality Safeties in the league.

Maxman and rookBoston,

My thought process regarding declaring McCourty's position is this:

The secondary is the weakest link of our team and fixing it is top priority this offseason. FA has a better chance of fixing that problem next year than the draft. However b/c of the cap we can't afford to bring in 2 starter quality players. Therefore it makes sense to decide where McCourty shall be used and sign a vet at the other position.

ay-yo said:

Maxman and rookBoston,

My thought process regarding declaring McCourty's position is this:

The secondary is the weakest link of our team and fixing it is top priority this offseason. FA has a better chance of fixing that problem next year than the draft. However b/c of the cap we can't afford to bring in 2 starter quality players. Therefore it makes sense to decide where McCourty shall be used and sign a vet at the other position.

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That's a fair argument except to say that if you are expecting a big money/long-term FA pickup then you'll be disappointed. It's not the way BB rolls. He's shown every intention of building his secondary through the draft and I don't see why he'd stop now. I can see a possible trade if that could be worked out or signing a vet on a one year deal but other than that, it'll be draft all the way.

I think your approach has merit, I just don't see it being BB's approach which is the only one that matters after all. Just my opinion.

rookBoston said:

Barron is a true SS, to the point where's he's almost an extra LB in the box. And Lester is returning to Alabama, so that knocks your two top FSs off the board.

I dont really feel a need to declare McCourty's position. I hope we draft a few DBs, and then we can wait see how things play out. Regardless, Devin will be core to the secondary next year.

One last thing on Barron... if somehow he drops to us (impossible), it would be more likely to play him at SS and shift Chung to FS than the other way around.

Or, and here's the interesting idea, play a split safety scheme more in the mode of what BB presumably had in mind with Milloy and Harrison in the same backfield (until Milloy got cut), and later with Harrison and John Lynch (until Lynch got cut). Hard to get that kind of talent on the roster at once, especially these days with really few quality Safeties in the league.

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I hate to disagree with a fellow Patsfan, but you are wrong on this.

However before I start bigging up Barron, I should warn you that he's one of my favourite players in this draft and should be a lock for #27 if he falls that far - I'd even trade up a few slots for him.

Barron is a true SS, to the point where's he's almost an extra LB in the box.

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This just isn't true. Barron is perfectly serviceable as a cover corner although I wouldn't want him man-covering a WR all game long. But put him in zone coverage, or better yet, as over the top support for a corner and you will have one of the best safeties in the league. He's got excellent instincts and makes plenty of plays in pass coverage. Personally I think he's better than Lester in coverage.

One last thing on Barron... if somehow he drops to us (impossible), it would be more likely to play him at SS and shift Chung to FS than the other way around.

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Two things here. Barron is better than Chung at any safety position. I don't think Chung is all that special. He's the best safety we've got but that's not much of a recommendation. secondly, as Chung seems to spend half of every season injured anyway, Barron would be a fine addition regardless as cover at the very least.

Finally, safety is the biggest weakness we have on the team. It makes absolute sense to draft the best one available and as there's a huge drop off after Barron (I'm not a Markelle Martin fan), it makes absolutely perfect sense to draft him should he be available.

Which leads to my final point, and the one I agree with you on. It would be a big surprise should Barron fall to us at 27. But there's a reason for that - he's that good, a genuine first round talent at S.

Sorry to unload on you a bit but I think people lock on to this in the box safety thing because, lets be honest, he's playing against a bunch of poor QB's in the SEC. Of course he's going to be used in run support most of the time. But I've watched most Alabama games this year and tend to focus on Barron and Hightower as my boys for this draft. I don't remember seeing Barron burned once.

I agree that the secondary is our most glaring hole and needs sorting out in some way. I'd say keep McCourty at CB personally, hes previously excelled there and his tackling is a bit dodgy at times which is more of a problem at safety.

Its a weird that this thread was up as I've come on to look for information of Ras-I Dowling.. how much of a part will he play next season? What number will he be on the depth chart?

As for the FS issue we should sign someone cheap but experienced ideally. Michael Griffin (maybe not too cheap?) is available as is Chris Harris. Some excellent corners like finnegan, rogers and carr but I doubt any are cheap. Either way we need two DB's from the draft IMO.

A couple years ago, when Dimitroff took the GM job with ATL, both he and BB independently talked about the "traditional" safety roles (FS v. SS) becoming less distinct. Perhaps the way BB used DBs this season was an anomaly forced on him by the available personnel, but it almost seems as if he's beginning to see the CB/safety roles as being somewhat more interchangeable, too.

MaineMan said:

A couple years ago, when Dimitroff took the GM job with ATL, both he and BB independently talked about the "traditional" safety roles (FS v. SS) becoming less distinct.

Perhaps the way BB used DBs this season was an anomaly forced on him by the available personnel, but it almost seems as if he's beginning to see the CB/safety roles as being somewhat more interchangeable, too.

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Beautifull. God knows I'd agree with him.

I've been proposing that we exterminate both Safety positions for a while, now.

If it were up to me, we'd haul in Trumaine Johnson and Desmond Marrow, at least. That would give us 4 guys, at a minimum, with at least the raw skill sets to play either Safety or Corner at an high level:

Devin McCourty
Ras I Dowling
Trumaine Johnson
Desmond Marrow

Stephon Gilmore greatly intrigues me, as well, but he's getting Expensive.

MaineMan said:

A couple years ago, when Dimitroff took the GM job with ATL, both he and BB independently talked about the "traditional" safety roles (FS v. SS) becoming less distinct. Perhaps the way BB used DBs this season was an anomaly forced on him by the available personnel, but it almost seems as if he's beginning to see the CB/safety roles as being somewhat more interchangeable, too.

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This is a valid point. In the BB defense both safeties need to be able to communicate, tackle and cover.

I don't know where McCourty fits best, but first I need to know why he regressed this season. Was it a case of bulking up too much in the offseason or was it a change to the 4-3 or is there something else going on like a loss of confidence or undiclosed injury?
If you think McCourty can bounce back to his all star form, then you leave him at CB.

Second, in my mind you can NEVER have enough good DB's. So while I think we need to take Cox and Hightower in the first round, I see no reason we can not come back in the second and take CB Minnifield of Virginia and FS Martin in the second round.

I wasn;t all that impressed with what I saw of Dowling earlier in the year, but one thing is for sure, he looks like a guy that could break Carble's record for the most weeks on IR in a career. So having another CB is an absolute must.

In summary if McCourty starts at CB and Chung and Ivebeenaho at safety, then we need a CB to start opposite McCourty since Arrington seems to work best as a slot nickel CB.
We let Minnifield, Moore and Dowling battle it out that spot. Meanwhile in subpackages, we continue to move McCourty to FS for Ivebeenaho and bring in the loser of the CB starter battle. At least until Martin is ready to claim the FS FT from Ivebeenaho.

And finally just because I do not think Chung can play 16 games a year, I might take SS Smith of Notre Dame in the fourth round as well.

Ochmed Jones said:

This is a valid point. In the BB defense both safeties need to be able to communicate, tackle and cover.

I don't know where McCourty fits best, but first I need to know why he regressed this season. Was it a case of bulking up too much in the offseason or was it a change to the 4-3 or is there something else going on like a loss of confidence or undiclosed injury?
If you think McCourty can bounce back to his all star form, then you leave him at CB.

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While I think that injuries certainly hampered him for part of the season, I'd mostly attribute McCourty's regression to two things. First, as a guy who'd played almost exclusively zone for most of his career, he unsurprisingly struggled to transition to man-coverage (especially press) without his sophomore summer OTAs. When the defense shifted to zone at times this season, he seemed significantly more comfortable. Second, his lapses in man were made worse by the lack of quality deep safety coverage behind him (when he apparently expected it to be there). He seems a smart, talented, athletic guy, but it remains to be seen whether he eventually develops decent man understanding/technique. Until that point, I'd expect to continue to see him shifting roles.

Second, in my mind you can NEVER have enough good DB's. So while I think we need to take Cox and Hightower in the first round, I see no reason we can not come back in the second and take CB Minnifield of Virginia and FS Martin in the second round.

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I don't know about drafting a bunch more DBs this year, although I suppose tha it would have to be early, if at all. And your specific selections may be as good as any. But the "never have enough good DBs" thing, I agree with 110%. The Rams put, literally, EIGHT DBs on IR over the course of this season. Also, DBs as a group (especially mid-field coverage guys, it seems) typically miss more games to injury over the course of a season than any other unit, offensive or defensive, so it definitely pays to have a lot of reserves.

I wasn;t all that impressed with what I saw of Dowling earlier in the year, but one thing is for sure, he looks like a guy that could break Carble's record for the most weeks on IR in a career. So having another CB is an absolute must.

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I liked what little I saw of Dowling, especially in press-man, but with the emphasis on "little". He didn't see enough action, IMO, to warrant a judgement either way. BTW, Crable doesn't hold the record for most career weeks on IR. That belongs to Tank something-or-other, the Harrison-sized strong safety that BB picked up as a UFA from the Bears a few years back. He was in the league seven years and spent most of FOUR of them on IR. Actually, Josh Barret is far closer to Crable's mark than Dowling is. Anyway, I don't see any particular reason for Dowling to necessarily follow that path - he didn't miss a game his first 3 1/2 years in college. Of course, then there's the thing about NFL DBs getting injured a lot.

In summary if McCourty starts at CB and Chung and Ivebeenaho at safety, then we need a CB to start opposite McCourty since Arrington seems to work best as a slot nickel CB.
We let Minnifield, Moore and Dowling battle it out that spot. Meanwhile in subpackages, we continue to move McCourty to FS for Ivebeenaho and bring in the loser of the CB starter battle. At least until Martin is ready to claim the FS FT from Ivebeenaho.

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I don't disagree with your line-up speculation, but I do feel it's a bit early to indulge in detailing the potential roles of new guys when there are already a bunch of young guys on the roster with possibly some potential. Sergio Brown, for as poorly as he seemed to function in his first season attempting to play safety, was really no worse than Meriweather was in HIS first season. And Brown is more athletic. Barrett, if he can stay healthy, might step up. Tarpinian (another "IR-guy") seems like he might have a unique (to the Pats), as yet unexplored role in coverage. Malcolm Williams hasn't done much beyond special teams yet, but he put up Combine numbers comparable to 1st-round CBs last season. All of these guys likely get another shot in camp, even though it's almost certain that BB picks up at least one (if not two or three) new bodies during draft weekend. He almost always has in the past. Whether he spends high or not depends on whether he sees draft prospects who HE feels have more potential to contribute sooner than guys he's already worked with.

And finally just because I do not think Chung can play 16 games a year, I might take SS Smith of Notre Dame in the fourth round as well.

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I actually like Smith a lot, but, WRT Chung not being able to play a full 16-game season, I'll just refer back to the stat about DB injuries around the league. IOW, there's apparently a significantly high risk of injury for ANY DB and I don't really think the probability is necessarily any higher for any one DB (NOT named Bob Sanders) over any other. It's entirely possible that Chung and Dowling BOTH make it through 2012 unscathed, but the Pats lose someone else to IR.

manx, since you're so high on Barron, I took the opportunity to watch some YouTube film to refresh my memory of him.

Here's what I saw:
- great tackler, strong hands
- very decisive
- great anticipation of the play
- big and physical, looks like a LB even standing next to Hightower
- will line up on the slot receiver or TE
- will line up as a linebacker against the run
- does not have great recovery speed
- does not look like a cover corner, even on the slot tends to drop the guy after 5 yards... this may be the scheme not an indication of his ability
- strong in the box, but can get burned in the open field

In interviews, his early years he's pretty uncomfortable answering questions. Seems like a quiet guy. More recent interviews, he's more confident speaking to media. But honestly, he's not a great interview. Has good substance in his answers. Seems thoughtful.

I'm sold. Put him on the roster. BB will figure out how to place the talent around him. He would be the anchor to the secondary. But I stick by my claim that he's a true SS. He's not nearly as good in man coverage as he is roaming the field.

I remember a play where Rodney Harrison was playing deep safety against the Colts, playoff game. 3rd down. At the snap, Rodney let the TE run right down the seam, wide open, and hit the slant route where the ball was going to Reggie Wayne. It was an incredible instinctive play. He knew where the play was going, I assume based on down and distance and formation and tendencies. He covered an incredible amount of field to get to the spot before the ball got there. Huge gamble, because if Peyton pumps and throws to the TE instead, it's a TD. But it was exactly the play that was needed and somehow he knew. I must have watched that play a dozen times, trying to figure out what Rodney saw that tipped him off. I never did figure it out, only that he read the play and moved IMMEDIATELY on the snap.

I could see Barron making that play.