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Why are people in love with Tebow's "wins"?


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Your opinion is noted. However, Skip argued this morning that Tebow should ask for or even demand a trade because of what Skip considers a locker room that is akin to a snakepit in Denver. He made these comments based on the rumors that Brady Quinn was given a package of plays last week prior to the Steelers game and that Tebow was on a short leash, that Quinn might have come in on 3rd downs which is sending a message to Tebow that he is not a capable passer or that he might have replaced Tebow completely if he struggled early. This is why Skip has the reputation that he has. He rants about how great Tebow is, he belittles the rest of the Denver players at times while making his points about Tebow, and he makes stupid comments like that Tebow should demand a trade because Elway and the organization are mistreating him. He flies from one extreme to the other. I don't care if he is knowledgeable or not about what he is ranting about. His rants are over the top, often childish and fluctuate so much that taking him seriously is difficult at best. Give me sharp, reasoned analysis any day over what Skip offers.


Well I don't know anything about the Denver locker room, but let's be honest. Who is really all that great in the Denver line-up? Their receivers are 32nd in dropped passes and they started doing better once Decker got knocked out of the game. They have a pretty good O line, a few good defensive players who play their heart out, but there's a lot of room for improvement there. Again ESPN's job is to make this story even greater than what it is. Saying things like that just makes it all the more "wow".

Although, Skip might have a point if that is going on. Tebow should demand a trade, but as a contract negotiation tactic, after this season. Although I doubt it will come down to that. I do however see some Denver players, if indeed they're not with the new program, getting cut. But none of us really know what's going on.
 
Although, Skip might have a point if that is going on. Tebow should demand a trade, but as a contract negotiation tactic, after this season. Although I doubt it will come down to that. I do however see some Denver players, if indeed they're not with the new program, getting cut. But none of us really know what's going on.

I'm not in the Denver locker room either, but that was Skip's statement about it. He called it a snakepit for Tebow with the organization/coaches planning to yank him quickly in favor of Quinn if he struggled. The funny thing is, putting in a cold, hasn't played all year Brady Quinn would probably have been a complete waste of time. At least Tebow is game-ready.

I disagree though about Denver's players. They have plenty of playmakers. Thomas emerged this past weekend as a threat. Their kicker has been clutch. They have a good offensive line and running backs. They have a couple of excellent pass rushers on defense. My point is that Skip throws the team under the bus while heaping praise on Tebow. Tebow isn't single-handedly winning these games despite what Skip would have us believe in his obnoxious rants. Heck, Tebow would be the first to credit his teammates after a victory. Why can't Skip see this and do the same? Again, this is why I believe Skip is a joke. If he toned it down by half, I might take him more seriously.

The whole demanding a trade things was all pure Skip, unreasonably defending Tebow from all who might have anything negative to say about him.
 
I'm not in the Denver locker room either, but that was Skip's statement about it. He called it a snakepit for Tebow with the organization/coaches planning to yank him quickly in favor of Quinn if he struggled. The funny thing is, putting in a cold, hasn't played all year Brady Quinn would probably have been a complete waste of time. At least Tebow is game-ready.

I disagree though about Denver's players. They have plenty of playmakers. Thomas emerged this past weekend as a threat. Their kicker has been clutch. They have a good offensive line and running backs. They have a couple of excellent pass rushers on defense. My point is that Skip throws the team under the bus while heaping praise on Tebow. Tebow isn't single-handedly winning these games despite what Skip would have us believe in his obnoxious rants. Heck, Tebow would be the first to credit his teammates after a victory. Why can't Skip see this and do the same? Again, this is why I believe Skip is a joke. If he toned it down by half, I might take him more seriously.

The whole demanding a trade things was all pure Skip, unreasonably defending Tebow from all who might have anything negative to say about him.

I agree that they are all team wins, especially for a John Fox team. But I think Skip's mainly put off by their receivers and I am too. I said it long before the Pittsburg game what that team was missing was some play makers on offense other than Tebow and another receiver to step up. As soon as I saw Decker go out, I said, this could actually help them. Their run game is good but they are also prone to fumbles, including Tebow, and the Pats proved that much. I was watching NFL Sound FX and at one point Ben goes "Mcgahee? Rip that ball out". Sure enough they did manage to rip that ball out.

Like I said, I agree with you, they have good players at O-line, Champ's awesome, Dumervil, and a few others on defense. Prater of course. Those guys are players but as a defense, overall, they have holes and play inconsistent. But when it comes to other guys like Decker? I'm just not impressed with his play as a receiver. Tight ends? Roasario? Used to watch him struggle to start with the Panthers. Special teams defense? Terrible. Sole difference maker in the playoff game, imo, was special teams and Thomas stepping up. Tebow didn't really pass that ball any better than he did earlier in the season. Him and Thomas just connected, whereas him and Decker and a lot of others didn't. And as far as special teams, Fox and their offense kept them on the bench for most of that game. They gave up so much field position against the Pats, Bills and KC it was ridiculous. Couldn't cover a punt for the life of them.

But I think Skip is mainly referencing the receivers because when it comes to Tebow as a passer, honestly, their receivers this year, just have not given him much help. They don't do much to help that completion %. I've even heard ball rotation excuses, even among Bronco fans, and having to adjust to a left handed passer. lol. What the heck does ball rotation have to do with catching a football when you are getting pelted on your helmet, shoulder pad, arm, chest, even in between their hands with the ball and you don't come down with it? I can understand a short pass that's just zipped too hard. But some of these were long downfield balls that were hitting them and they just didn't come down with them. And I think Tebow's criticism as a passer is kind of giving some of these guys a break. Even if it's a good throw, and the receiver drops it or might slip and miss his route, it's automatically perceived as Tebow's fault.

I look around the league and I see other receivers really fighting for the football. I see them catching balls that look a lot worse or less accurate than some of the ones Tebow's thrown. I see physical receivers that want it. Maybe I'm just used to watching Steve Smith catch the ball though. But I see guys sliding, making crazy acrobatic catches, adjusting on the fly to a throw, flexing their bodies, hanging on even after big hits, one hand catches, etc. I don't see much of that when the ball's in the air with the Broncos. I see the ball hit them and they drop it a lot.

Then I watch Decker against Kansas City literally "fake" a fall to the ground after failing to come down with the ball. Granted it was a bit underthrown but to throw yourself to the ground like an actor or a soccer player? What's all that about?

Thomas really stepped up big after Decker went out, but when it's all said and done, NE's defense really doesn't have much to worry about outside of Tebow. In terms of match-up, there's not a single guy that's worth wasting double coverage on. Even Thomas. He's fast, but he's not physical. Should be able to use a spy once again on Tebow, even with Thomas emerging as a receiver.
 
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first of all. skip totally lied about the locker room being against tebow. that whole quinn thing was just some random rumour that was started on a message board somewhere.
 
first of all. skip totally lied about the locker room being against tebow. that whole quinn thing was just some random rumour that was started on a message board somewhere.

Which illustrates my point about Skip perfectly. He is an idiot. He is so over the top regarding Tebow, that he has to resort to making stuff up about a divided locker room? I have no problem with supporting your guy but Skip goes so far beyond that. Like I said before, he is impossible to take seriously, whether he actually has a good point to make or not.
 
first of all. skip totally lied about the locker room being against tebow. that whole quinn thing was just some random rumour that was started on a message board somewhere.

Wait a second. That wasn't Skip lying. They were not the only ones reporting that. Even NBC and I'm not sure if it was Fox but I think that was just a cunning play on words: "third down package". I'm sorry.....a what? I've heard of letting your back-up get practice reps. I've heard of trick plays but a "third down package"? Denver were one of the worst in third down conversions so you can kind of see how that one was born.

I don't think you can put that on Skip for reporting something a lot of others reported. That's why you gotta love these anonymous "league sources". It's doing wonders for the Jets too. Although I gotta admit, some of the comments in response to that article were pretty funny looking back, especially from Steelers fans.

So, I guess the Broncos are trying to make this playoff appearance as embarassing as possible?

The Tebow experiment/fad is over.
John did not want to start Tebow to begin with because anyone could tell he was not ready. When Tebowmania made John switch to Tebow and the team started winning, all looked good. Now that the NFL knows how to defend the read-option of a very good running QB, it is time to move on. 2011 was the rebuilding year anyway.
We ARE West champs!!

Man, the Steelers are gonna kill these guys.

Even completely ice-cold, I would expect that Brady Quinn will be able to complete more passes than Tim Tebow. I won’t say the Broncos have any chance of victory, I am just saying he would complete more passes.

* Since I am being negative about Tebow, I need to say that I do like the kid, was always a fan and hoped he would be successful.

p.s. he wasn’t.

P.S. lol

I love how some haters immediately throw in "I like the kid" though. A little afraid of the almighty are we? God reads the internet so I guess if you're going to hate on Tebow, you gotta put an asterisk and ask for forgiveness.;)
 
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[Disagreement that Tebow is the worst passer in the NFL]
Obviously not...

Really, Tebow's accuracy is so much worse than any other starting NFL QB that I can remember that I'm really surprised you're arguing otherwise. I root hard for Tebow and am glad for his success. But he has major problems with footwork (leading to less accurate passes), arm motion (leading to slow speed of delivery and inaccuracy) and decisiveness (leading to holding on to the ball in a manner that is much worse than I ever saw with Drew Bledsoe).

I saw 3 passes highlighted from last week's game showcasing Tebow's inaccuracy (one across most of the field to a receiver on the right sidelines about 10 yards down the field with a defender pretty close where the ball wasn't close to catchable but a throw that many NFL QBs make, one over the middle of the field where the ball bounced to the receiver and one short throw to a wide open receiver 10 yards down the field on the left sideline where a good jump by the receiver still couldn't touch the ball). These passes are not an anomaly. They are typical of what observers saw everyday at training camp, practices and during games on Sunday.

You really believe Tebow can make a perfect pass as accurately as he did in OT, hitting his receiver in stride which was all on him, not his receiver, but he can't complete a much simpler pass in regular time when he has a clear lane, no one in front of him and plenty of time to throw? What would be the explanation? He farted? His arm has jerks that just show up at times and makes the ball fly out of bounds or on the ground but magically always seems to be out of reach of any defenders who have their eyes on it?

Yes, I really believe Tebow is inconsistent. You make completing a pass 15+ yards up the field with no pressure, no one in the passing lane against trailing single coverage where there is good separation sound like rocket science. Actually, this is a pass NFL QBs are expected to make. Consistently. It was a very good pass and Tebow does make some very good passes. The problem isn't his very good passes; it's the number of inaccurate passes that's the problem.

It's not simply that they didn't expect Tebow to throw, but it's also such a high risk call, from a play calling and coaching perspective. It only makes sense to call it as a means of surprise, but it requires you have an incredible amount of confidence in your quarterback to not make a mistake, and not so much complete the pass but AVOID the interception. That's what it mainly requires. The ability to first, avoid the interception, at all costs first. Completion, and yards after catch comes second in that situation and are more of an afterthought.

This is really over the top. Calling what we later found out was his "favorite play" and throwing into single coverage against a defense that all game long has been stacked to stop the run is a "high risk call"? In what world are you living? Oh, that's right, you're in Tim Tebow's world where there is evidently little to no expectation that an NFL QB can throw the ball. :rolleyes:

[Discusion of Tebow's great decision making]

Tebow's decision making is well below NFL average. Earlier in the year he threw a lot of balls away or ran the ball out of the pocket. He's trying to throw the ball more which has led to more interceptions the past month. He struggles when his first read isn't open. He struggles to throw the pass at times when his first read is open. He thrives on extending the play when a receiver gets totally clear of a defender or in throwing the ball well down the field over the defenders.

There's a lot about TebowMania that I really enjoy. However, I also understand that part of TebowMania is the desire, in fact the need, to irrationally claim Tebow is not what he is. He is a very inaccurate passer by NFL standards. If this doesn't change, this will derail his career as a QB.
 
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I think the problem with "Tebowmania" is the media and fans aren't being objective when analyzing Tim Tebow. Because he is a good role model and a hard worker that loves the game, we want him to be a great quarterback. If it were suggested otherwise, it would go against the value that hard work pays off. Suddenly, we start saying that his pass in OT was a great pass. It wasn't a great pass. It was a good pass that any NFL quarterback should be able to make. It was a 15 yard in-route where the receiver had DB beat. Trent Dilfer even said any high school QB should be able to complete that pass.

I think if we look at this objectively, here is what Tebow is:

A great role model, maybe one of the best of all time.
A great leader
A great competitor
A great runner
Tough
A decent decision-maker

Here is what Tim Tebow doesn't have:

Accuracy
Anticipation
A quick release
A strong arm
A tight spiral
Good footwork

The main thing that bothers me is that we want to say he's a great quarterback when he's not. Can you win games with Tim Tebow? Yes. But you can also win games with Alex Smith, Joe Flacco, Trent Dilfer, Vince Young, Matt Flynn, John Skelton, and countless others. Is Tim Tebow at least an average QB when you look at the entire package? Maybe. I think he's a lot closer to Colt McCoy than he is to Ben Roethlisberger. At this point in his career, I'd probably lump him with Andy Dalton, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco, Healthy Matt Hasselbeck, and Tavaris Jackson.

But, I'd still rank the following QBs ahead of him:

Brady, Rogers, Brees, Peyton Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Romo, Eli Manning, Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, Matt Stafford, 2011 Alex Smith, Matt Schaub, Matt Ryane, Cam Newton.

So, assuming I didn't miss any, I'd currently rank 16 QBs ahead of Tebow. You can argue a few of those, but you could also argue that Matt Cassell, Andy Dalton, and Josh Freeman (assuming he goes back to 2010 form) are better than Tebow. This puts Tebow in the middle of the pack, making him an average QB. The frustrating thing about Tebow for non-Tebow fanboys is that he's treated as though he's great, when he is clearly not.
 
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Yes, I really believe Tebow is inconsistent. You make completing a pass 15+ yards up the field with no pressure, no one in the passing lane against trailing single coverage where there is good separation sound like rocket science. Actually, this is a pass NFL QBs are expected to make. Consistently. It was a very good pass and Tebow does make some very good passes. The problem isn't his very good passes; it's the number of inaccurate passes that's the problem.

Tim Tebow isn't accurate as a passer? So wait, are we now criticizing him for throwing a short pass that went for a lot of yards after catch? In that case...who is the most efficient deep ball thrower in the NFL in 2011? Who is #1 in air yards per attempt?

Interesting...
NEXT LEVEL: The Steelers allowed 7.8 yards per attempt on passes that traveled 15 yards or more in the air during the regular season, best in the NFL. Tim Tebow, the NFL leader in air yards per attempt (12.3 air yards/att), took advantage of a beat up Steelers defense without safety Ryan Clark for the entire game and defensive linemen Casey Hampton and Brett Kiesel for most of the game and aired it out deep.

Pittsburgh Steelers vs. Denver Broncos - Recap - January 08, 2012 - ESPN

So what about all those OTHER passes throughout the season?

Tim Tebow has a lower completion % because he attempts more long ball passes on fewer attempts and avoids the pick. One other reason is because Denver also happens to have the #1 rushing offense in the NFL and runs a John Fox offense. This is like the equivalent of Brady haters saying he can't throw the deep ball, because he happens to play in a west coast style offense which requires completing a lot of short passes.

So are you really saying Tim Tebow is more accurate at throwing a deep 50 yard pass than a 10 yard completion? Well if you believe that, then he must have divine intervention because that is the only way a freaking quarterback will EVER be more accurate with a long ball than a short ball. He's breaking laws of physics if that's what Tebow is doing. Pretty amazing.

Come on folks, it's becoming borderline ridiculous. The guy throws a mean deep ball. He was on a record setting pace in interception % and yet, plays with the 32nd worse receiving core in dropped passes, yet he's still an inaccurate quarterback? He doesn't have a strong arm yet he's #1 in the NFL in air yards %?

I'm beginning to think there are a whole bunch of people that have no idea what accuracy actually refers to.
 
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The OP compared Tebow to Vince Young, some delusional posters tried comparing him to Brady. I always thought he compared to Ray Lucas at QB.

Tebow's numbers this year leading his team to an 8-8 record:

7 wins 4 losses 126 completions 271 attempts 46.5% 1729 yards 12 TD 6 INT

Ray Lucas '99 season with the Jets leading his team to an 8-8 record.

6 wins 3 losses 161 completions 272 attempts 59.2% 1678 yards 14 TD 6 INT

Lucas won 2 more games as a starting QB the rest of his career.

Like how you conveniently left out the rushing statistics. Tebow compared to Ray Lucas. Are you serious?
 
Tim Tebow isn't accurate as a passer? So wait, are we now criticizing him for throwing a short pass that went for a lot of yards after catch?

I have absolutely no criticism, only praise, for the intermediate pass that went for a lot of yards after the catch.

In that case...who is the most efficient deep ball thrower in the NFL in 2011? Who is #1 in air yards per attempt?

I actually wrote in a thread earlier this week that I think Tebow is more accurate than Tom Brady in throwing the long ball. Unfortunately, that's as much a criticism of Tom Brady (at least this year, perhaps not historically true) as it is a compliment to Tebow. At any rate, I gladly concede that the inaccuracy problems are with the intermediate and short passes and that the long passes look pretty good from what I've seen.

In response to the general yards per attempt point, this is what happens when you have a disproportionate number of long pass attempts (along with some good runs after the catch); you get a really good yards per attempt number. If Tebow threw about the same percentage of short and intermediate passes as other QBs, then I'd expect his YPA numbers to be average at best. In other words, good YPA don't always correlate to accurate passing.

Tim Tebow has a lower completion % because he attempts more long ball passes on fewer attempts and avoids the pick.

Agreed, this is a factor.

But really, haven't you been watching Tebow? Haven't you heard the analysis of his accuracy from all those that have been watching Tebow? Do you refuse to believe your eyes and your ears? :confused:

Come on folks, it's becoming borderline ridiculous.

Indeed it has.

I'm beginning to think there are a whole bunch of people that have no idea what accuracy actually refers to.

I'm convinced of it. ;)
 
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Like how you conveniently left out the rushing statistics. Tebow compared to Ray Lucas. Are you serious?

He compares better to Roethlisberger. Not as accurate of a passer but a better runner and both are better when scrambling and tough to bring down. Give Tebow Hines Ward in his prime, Plaxico when he was young and useful, Bettis and fast Willie Parker and see how well Tebow does.

Tebow is legit. He is not great but he is not terrible either. However, Elway is far....from being in the same class as Brady.

Elway's best TD season = 27 with 11 INT. He never had a season where he did NOT throw for double digit INTs. I don't really have to list Brady's stats do I? Yes it was a bit of a different league then but still Elway's comp % was only above 60% for three of his 16 seasons. Yet Denver fans think he is the greatest of all time. That is just so laughable to me.
 
Elway is far....from being in the same class as Brady.

Elway's best TD season = 27 with 11 INT. He never had a season where he did NOT throw for double digit INTs. I don't really have to list Brady's stats do I? Yes it was a bit of a different league then but still Elway's comp % was only above 60% for three of his 16 seasons. Yet Denver fans think he is the greatest of all time. That is just so laughable to me.

The fact that the league and it's rules were very different means such a comparison is flawed from the outset, give young Elway what Brady/Brees/Rodgers have and I think you'd see a lot more TDs and less INTs. To more accurately compare you'd want to see how Elway did relative to the rest of the league in his day, and compare that differential to how Brady is relative to the rest of the league today.
 
the-fear-of-god.jpg
 
The fact that the league and it's rules were very different means such a comparison is flawed from the outset, give young Elway what Brady/Brees/Rodgers have and I think you'd see a lot more TDs and less INTs. To more accurately compare you'd want to see how Elway did relative to the rest of the league in his day, and compare that differential to how Brady is relative to the rest of the league today.

Jim Kelly: Best season 33 TDs and 17 INT; season before 24 TDs and 9 INTs. 7 of 11 seasons at 60% comp. or better

Drew Bledsoe: Best season 28 TDs and 15 INT; Comp % above 60 four out of 15 years.

Warren Moon: Best Season 33 TDs (did it twice actually) and 13 INT; Comp % above 60 in six of 16 seasons.

Mark Brunell: Best Season 23 TDs and 10 INT; Comp 60%+ in six of 12 seasons where he was the starter.

I won't even list Marino, Montana and Young.

Elway = FAR from GOAT.
 
Both QBs suck and VY was overrated but not to the extreme like they are doing Tebow, who IMO, is only a better person but no much better of a QB than VY.

It's only because Tebow isn't private about his beliefs, that the media has taken such an interest in him. They are waiting to see him fail/sin. Just imagine if they find Tebow making out with a chick somewhere, she will be blown up in this travesty of Tebowmania and will be very high-profiled as well. Even tabloids got him hooked up with Katy Perry now.

As soon as he messes up, he will be brought down to the rest of the below-average QBs level, in terms of media discussion. He may get better on the field, but as for now, he's no better than Young.
 
Thanks for the long, stupid, annoying post "NinjaZX"...
 
Jim Kelly: Best season 33 TDs and 17 INT; season before 24 TDs and 9 INTs. 7 of 11 seasons at 60% comp. or better

Drew Bledsoe: Best season 28 TDs and 15 INT; Comp % above 60 four out of 15 years.

Warren Moon: Best Season 33 TDs (did it twice actually) and 13 INT; Comp % above 60 in six of 16 seasons.

Mark Brunell: Best Season 23 TDs and 10 INT; Comp 60%+ in six of 12 seasons where he was the starter.

I won't even list Marino, Montana and Young.

Elway = FAR from GOAT.

Ok, what did they have in the way of a supporting cast relative to Elway? Did Elway every have a blue chip receiver to throw to like Montana did? How much of a running game did Elway have to lean on? The big knock on Marino was that he never won the big one, would that have been different if he was coached by Bill Walsh?

Sorry but statistics give a snapshot without context.
 
Like how you conveniently left out the rushing statistics. Tebow compared to Ray Lucas. Are you serious?

I am serious, in fact Timmy Tebow has a ways to go before he is on Ray Lucas' level, the numbers say Lucas is the better QB. Deal with it.
 
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