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Brady v. Brees: Two games to pass Marino


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One is yards after catch and one is air yards according to advancedstats.com. I believed they already include a certain percentage of yards after catch into the QB's air yards number. You will have to read their description of it.

I believe they use a league average for screen passes that would normally result in negative yardage when it comes to air yards. They took it a step further than just raw positive air yards because of so many teams that rely on screen passes.

Just like QB's shouldn't be credited with all the yards after catch, they should not be punished for designed screen passes. Those guys are pretty good about stats and football logic at least when it comes to a couple of the stats they track that I looked into.

Sounds like a bad stat when it accounts for 1600 yards worth of grey area for a QB that doesn't throw many screens at all.
 
Sounds like a bad stat when it accounts for 1600 yards worth of grey area for a QB that doesn't throw many screens at all.

Excuse my stupid assumption. Don't blame them, blame me. I looked up their description of it and what that number is yards adjusted for quarterback sacks yardage and interceptions lost:

Adjusted Yards per Attempt (AYPA) – A quarterback’s Yards per Attempt (YPA) minus sack yards, adjusted by a 45-yard penalty for each interception thrown. 45 yards is chosen because it is approximately equivalent to the Expected Point (EP) value of an interception.

They use the same abbreviations for air yards though and it threw me off. So I guess my estimates will have to do for now for air yards, keeping in mind those screen passing issues and that it's only good for full season starters that are the only ones throwing until someone can point us in the right direction.

I have no idea why air yards are not tracked all things considered. Still looking though. I know they track it, I just don't know where they list them.
 
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AYPA + YPA / EP = PP CA CA DO DO

Total air yards= BNS +FRNKS x FARTS = ToWN DuMP
 
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I'm curious Andy (as it seems you've investigated the matter) how many of those home run throws were with Randy Moss on the roster in 2010?
Don't know. Splits show by season, not by game.
 
Brady himself is his staunchest critic.
It's why he's a contender for the GOAT and won't rest on his laurels.
There's ALWAYS room for self analysis and improvement.
It's BB's and the Patriots theme.
Private industry managers take note.

That doesn't mean ficticious criticism about something that isn't happening is accurate.
I could say that Brady needs to stay in the pocket and stop scrambling at every opportunity and your response would indicate that is a valid criticism.
The criticism that Brady favors the homerun and that invariably turns into 3 and outs is just as silly.
 
Andy, it wasn't meant to be taken literally- more of an expression of frustration, that's all.

Frustration of what. He absolutely doesn't do what you said you are frustrated by. I don't understand. If it was a displaced frustration over something unrelated why post it?
What exactly are you frustrated about offensively in our 11-3 team with a top 3 offense?
 
I have no idea either. It gets frustrating at times, especially in a goal line situation where we can easily run the ball in rather than throwing into a very compressed playing field.

Aren't we somewhere near #1 in red zone offense?
What difference does it make how we score if we score?
 
I hope that is not true

Were I BOB or BB and noticed such a bias, I'd have words with my QB

However, I do not believe this to be so. Sadly for some inexplicable reason like most of the things happening this season, the offense eschews the screen pass. Bledsoe could not throw it. Brady won championships throwing it...Redmond, Antowain Smythe (sic), Faulk... but now has foresworn the pass. At a loss for a rational explanation, I blame Gisele.

That is not true. We have thrown 65 passes behimd the los, which we seem to be a real good representation of the number of screens.
Compared to previous years, its pretty much exactly what we have done.


2011 65 in 14 games 4.6 per game
2010 71 in 16 4.4
2009 82 in 16 5.1
2007 77 in 16 4.8
total 295 in 62 4.7

So we have thrown more screens than last year, and with are about 1 screen total season to date behind the historic average.
 
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Red-zone offense ranking is pretty meaningless. So is red zone defense. I've seen the Pats and other teams swing from 25th to 5th every other week even after week 14.

It has a lot more to do with drive length, field position and even other scoring drives. Teams that start further back, or score often on long plays, will typically have a worse red-zone offense.

If you score 3TD's in a game from outside the red-zone and take the lead, and then on your next drive or final drive you get to the red-zone and opt for a FG, you have a 0% red zone TD efficiency. lol. Who cares?
 
Red-zone offense ranking is pretty meaningless. So is red zone defense. I've seen the Pats and other teams swing from 25th to 5th every other week even after week 14.

It has a lot more to do with drive length, field position and even other scoring drives. Teams that start further back, or score often on long plays, will typically have a worse red-zone offense.

If you score 3TD's in a game from outside the red-zone and take the lead, and then on your next drive or final drive you get to the red-zone and opt for a FG, you have a 0% red zone TD efficiency. lol. Who cares?

It matters in relation to the complaint raised, ie the Patriots pass when they could easily run it in for a score. On top of how silly it is to suggest they could easily score and choose not to, the results seem to be real good the way they are doing it.
 
I hear you. Yeah if you're out to look and find problems, no matter what team you look into or what QB you look into, you're going to find them.
 
I hear you. Yeah if you're out to look and find problems, no matter what team you look into or what QB you look into, you're going to find them.

Not exactly, because here it wasn't a matter of finding them, it was a matter of inventing them where they do not exist.
 
IMO, this record is useless.

When you have 2 quarterbacks who will break the record (brady/brees), another one who could have broken it in aaron rodgers (and will in the future)... and than 1 or 2 others who are near it... the record has no significant meaning IMO.


When marino broke 5k yards, who was the next closest QB?
 
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Note: Woah... i just checked passing stats on NFL.com and both eli manning and stafford have 4.5-4.6k passing yardage LMFAO.
 
IMO, this record is useless.

When you have 2 quarterbacks who will break the record (brady/brees), another one who could have broken it in aaron rodgers (and will in the future)... and than 1 or 2 others who are near it... the record has no significant meaning IMO.

When marino broke 5k yards, who was the next closest QB?

How quickly we forget, Dan Fouts had a couple 4,800 seasons in 81 and 83. People used to sling it a lot back then too, though the rules didn't favor passing as much. But before laughing at Stafford and Manning, realize that immortals such as Neil Lomax and Lynn ****ey are in that area with Eli and Stafford at 4,500, and they did it in the 80s. Trust me, Eli and Stafford are much better QBs than Lomax and ****ey.
 
How quickly we forget, Dan Fouts had a couple 4,800 seasons in 81 and 83. People used to sling it a lot back then too, though the rules didn't favor passing as much. But before laughing at Stafford and Manning, realize that immortals such as Neil Lomax and Lynn ****ey are in that area with Eli and Stafford at 4,500, and they did it in the 80s. Trust me, Eli and Stafford are much better QBs than Lomax and ****ey.

I'd like to do a study to find out when exactly running the football came to be seen as "standard" during the 80's. Seems to have been that way for most teams (except some like Buffalo) up until 2000.
 
Some stats and history fun for those that like this. The race for one of the most over-hyped but pretty meaningless record in football continues and got more interesting:

Brady 4897 1 game to go
Brees 4780 2 games to go

Brady leads by about 117 yards and Brees has to face a strong Atlanta team followed by Carolina which I don't expect to give him much trouble. Meanwhile Brady's gotta go up against the Bills which don't have much to play for other than pride. Brady might still be able to pull ahead at the end and I wouldn't put it past him. Having said that though, this definitely deserves an asterisk. On average passing yards per game have increased by about 7% per team since.

But Marino fans are going nuts talking about how much harder it was to pass back in the day. Well let's find out. What's Marino's 5,084 record estimated to be worth today? Well one could argue that if the level of QB's across the league remained fairly the same it would be worth a rough estimate of about ~5,439 yards.

In which case only Brees has a chance to get close to it and may still miss it unless he gets more than 659 yards these past two games. But that depends on whether you think there are less QB's worth a damn in today's league than during Marino's days. However if Brees really wanted to silence the critics, I would put up 700 yards for good measure, that is if Brees really cares that much about it. Then you could say he's probably truly surpassed Marino's single season yardage total. And it will still be as meaningless as the year Marino broke it and surpassed it back in 1984 when it comes to winning and losing.

However, if we're going to criticize the new era of QB's for taking advantage of the new rules, shouldn't we also criticize Marino for breaking the one previously set? Certainly it was even tougher to pass in the 70's than in the 80's, right? So then how much did Marino's record mean in comparisons to say...Joe Namath who passed for 4007 yards with them stinking Jets in 1967?

1967 24 teams 70770 total league passing yards or 2948 average yards per team.
1984 28 teams 102233 or 3651 average passing yards per team.

So Marino's record was 139% over league average yards or 39% higher in 1984. Namath's record was about 136% over league average yards or 36% higher in 1967. A little less but equally impressive considering it was an even tougher era. You could argue Marino earned it or you could argue the 3% is statistical noise and it's not much different than Namath's record set in 1967.

I'm not sure where 2011 will end up but:
2010 32 teams 120,755 yards or 3773 yards per team. So only about a 122 yard increase for the season overall compared 1984. Not nearly as drastic as some people want to make it seem.

In addition, the increase up to 2010 in passing yards has not been nearly as drastic since 1984 as it was from 1967 to 1984. Marino and other quarterbacks in the early 80's probably got the most benefit from the rule changes that took place in the late 70's as far as total yardage and more so than the QB's of this era have gotten with the rule changes since 1984.

In the early and mid-70's it was actually harder than the 60's to pass. One of the toughest generation: In the 70's it stayed around a pretty consistent 60k and dipped lowest in 1973.

1969 72370 total passing yards
1973 58009 total passing yards (the lowest dip before going back up)

And the largest incremental increases came in the late 70's:
1977 63594
1978 79557
1979 89170
1980 95935

What was the cause of it? Rule changes was one of it. For example, just in 1978 alone:
* To open up the passing game, defenders are permitted to make contact with receivers only to a point of five yards beyond the line of scrimmage. This applies only to the time BEFORE the ball is thrown, at which point any contact is pass interference. Previously, contact was allowed anywhere on the field. This is usually referred to as the "Mel Blount Rule"
* The offensive team may only make one forward pass during a play from scrimmage, but only if the ball does not cross the line and return behind the line prior to the pass.
* Double touching of a forward pass is legal, but batting a pass towards the opponent's end zone is illegal. Previously, a second offensive player could not legally catch a deflected pass unless a defensive player had touched it. This is usually referred to as the "Mel Renfro Rule". During a play in Super Bowl V, Baltimore Colts receiver Eddie Hinton tipped a pass intended for him. Renfro, the Cowboys defensive back, made a stab at the ball and it was ruled that he tipped it ever so slightly (which he denied) into the arms of Colts tight end John Mackey, who ran for a touchdown. Later, this rule was also the one in question during the Immaculate Reception in 1972. But despite these two incidents, the rule change did not occur until this season.
* The pass blocking rules were extended to permit extended arms and open hands.
* The penalty for intentional grounding is reduced from a loss of down and 15 yards to a loss of down and 10 yards from the previous spot (or at the spot of the foul if the spot is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage). If the passer commits the foul in his own end zone, the defense scores a safety.
* Hurdling is no longer a foul.
* A seventh official, the Side Judge, is added to the officiating crew to help rule on legalities downfield. The addition of 15 officials (one per crew) forced three-digit numbers to be used for the first time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_NFL_season

Now there is no rule change that took place since 2010 that's nearly as drastic as some of the ones that took place before it to explain the sudden yardage increase in 2011. The kick-off rules resulting in more touchbacks explains a portion of it but it has actually forced teams to travel a longer field which, while it increases the amount of yards credited to the total offense, it's not actually any easier for the offense when it comes to playing the game. You could argue it's a bit harder for offenses to score points this year than in the past since they have to travel a bit longer. I think the biggest difference is re-introduction of some high octane style offense like the Air Coryell by the Carolina Panthers as well as the lock-out, catching defenses unprepared earlier in the season. Lately, if you will notice, there have not been too many 400+ passing yard games.

But wherever the new QB single season passing records may end up, for them to be on the same level, they should probably be somewhere around 39% or higher compared to league average for good measure. In which case, not even Brees might get there this year. But it's also not worth 6,000 yards like some are going around saying. About 5,400-5,500 yards is the spot to shoot for.
 
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I'd like to do a study to find out when exactly running the football came to be seen as "standard" during the 80's. Seems to have been that way for most teams (except some like Buffalo) up until 2000.

You also had more talented running backs back then, Eric ****erson,Marcus Allen, Barry Sanders, Emitt Smith. I would take all four over all RBs today other than Peterson. And there were more great RBs than just these 4.
 
In addition, the increase up to 2010 in passing yards has not been nearly as drastic since 1984 as it was from 1967 to 1984. Marino and other quarterbacks in the early 80's probably got the most benefit from the rule changes that took place in the late 70's as far as total yardage and more so than the QB's of this era have gotten with the rule changes since 1984.

More games undoubtedly accounts for much of the rise between 1967 to 1984. They went from a 14 game season to a 16 game season.
 
I agree that trophies and rings are more important than individual stats/records, and I have said so often out here. But I do have to admit that I find it amusing when people dis a record like this one.

If the record is so "useless" and "insignificant," how come no one has exceeded it in the 33 seasons since the NFL went to a 16 game schedule in 1978? And before you tell me that the run was more important 25 years ago and it's been a pass happy league in recent times, I point out that Marino set the record 27 years ago.

Several have observed in this thread, "Oh, old so and so, who never accomplished squat, threw for 4,500 yards, etc." But the difference between a 4,500 or 4,600 yard season and a nearly 5,100 yard season is two or three games. That means Marino accomplished in 16 games what they would have needed 18 or 19 games to accomplish; I wouldn't want to tell Dan Marino to his face that that's pigeon ****.

So, yeah, it's not as important as winning the last game of the season (and I don't mean the Pro Bowl :)), but it is a big deal.
 
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