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The very simple tale of the D vs Denver: gap integrity


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Thanks for the great read!
 
Ok, so I'm overwhelmed by the positive responses this post received. I'm thankful for every one, and I'm glad that people like my interest in studying football. I'm treading lightly here because it is so easy to sound like a douche, but...would there be any interest in me establishing a Patriots deep-dive blog for delivering this kind of content a few times a week? I've been kicking the idea around for a bit. I feel like it's bad form to ask, but given that this is likely the biggest and best aggregation of Pats fans, I would be curious as to your opinions.

Thanks!

absolutely! it would pretty much be required reading.
 
Awesome....I think....I am not an xo guy but I want to be. You said:
"They went to a shifted 43 under, mixed in some 43 over, and brought Ihedigbo down to make what was essentially a modified 44. "

On don't get this '43 under' and '43 over' stuff.....:confused2:

43 Over and Under is just a shifted front, with the ends playing over the tackles, and DT's lined up on the center and guard. The OLB also plays over top of the TE. Basically the over is used to stack defenders to the strong side, and the under is to the weak side.
 
43 Over and Under is just a shifted front, with the ends playing over the tackles, and DT's lined up on the center and guard. The OLB also plays over top of the TE. Basically the over is used to stack defenders to the strong side, and the under is to the weak side.

Thanks! So is it basically about where the OLB ends up lining up?
 
Ok, so I'm overwhelmed by the positive responses this post received. I'm thankful for every one, and I'm glad that people like my interest in studying football. I'm treading lightly here because it is so easy to sound like a douche, but...would there be any interest in me establishing a Patriots deep-dive blog for delivering this kind of content a few times a week? I've been kicking the idea around for a bit. I feel like it's bad form to ask, but given that this is likely the biggest and best aggregation of Pats fans, I would be curious as to your opinions.
Thanks!
Please do. I don't post here much but I read as much as I can -- selectively for the most part -- and you are one of the three or four people I always search for. I feel like I have a good understanding of the game but I learn something every time I read a post where you provide an analysis of a game/drive/play. This thread is no different. Thank you for what you do. It is greatly appreciated.
 
Great Post. Very informative for the less literate fans, like me out there.

I have been wondering for a while about football references that might enlighten those of, unlucky enough to grow up someplace where football wasn't played, about football techniques and and terminology.

I grew up in the US but my town didn't have a football program because of a spinal injury to high school player, in the 60s. We were a soccer school. Since I graduated they started a program and we have won multiple state championships.

Can anyone suggest a reading list to help school me up in the basics?

Thanks
 
Ok, so I'm overwhelmed by the positive responses this post received. I'm thankful for every one, and I'm glad that people like my interest in studying football. I'm treading lightly here because it is so easy to sound like a douche, but...would there be any interest in me establishing a Patriots deep-dive blog for delivering this kind of content a few times a week? I've been kicking the idea around for a bit. I feel like it's bad form to ask, but given that this is likely the biggest and best aggregation of Pats fans, I would be curious as to your opinions.

Thanks!

It'd be great to have a review like this weekly. Keep up the good work!:rocker:
 
Jay, I have a question on those outside rushes that went for big yards. One in particular. It was to the Denver left and in it Ninkovitch is being blocked by the TE. Early it looked like he had him under control, tbut hen snuck a quick look inside as the runner approached. When the RB saw that he broke outside.

Now here's the question. The RB beats Ninko to the outside, but then not a single DB shows up in the picture until the RB is about 8 yds down field. What I'd like you to figure out (if you can) since you have replay, what kind of secondary coverage the Pats were in that would cause that result. There seemed to be no force by an inverted S, nor was a CB ever in sight. Man coverage would somewhat explain it, but IIRC, the down and distance would make that seem unlikely, especially since it seemed to me that the Pats were essentially in zone coverages most of the game.

That lack of run support from the secondry showed up several times early in the game, and IMHO was more the cause of the success Denver had running the ball outside, than Ninko getting sucked in.

I'll look forward to your reply
 
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Jay you pretty much have rockstar status here on patsfans.com we appreciate the unbiased analysis, one of the few here that is neither "homer" nor "chicken little". Just Football analysis...Sweet.

Like Jays52's status if you like his status!
 
Can anyone suggest a reading list to help school me up in the basics?

Thanks

I am looking for such info too.

I have a couple of resources I go to. For one: Wikipedia which has good stuff on basics:
American football positions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
American football strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The second link also has tons of links to more specific things.

I also liked the book 'Take your eye off the ball'. It is good, not great (they assume more knowledge than I have, no appendix, and spotty glossary, terms often used before defined). But generally it is pretty good, I learned a lot.

Also, I have learned a ton from people here in my 'Stupid Football Questions' thread. If you are confused, you can ask questions there and the hard-core XO people often respond with very detailed and useful answers:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england.../704059-not-so-stupid-football-questions.html

Any others I'd like to know for people who are not xo people, but want to be.
 
Great Post. Very informative for the less literate fans, like me out there.

Can anyone suggest a reading list to help school me up in the basics?

Thanks

Get Pat Kirwin's "Take Your Eye Off The Ball".

Kirwin gets great training camp, etc. interviews from Belichick on "Moving The Chains" on Sirius NFL radio as Kirwin is interested in football issues, not the BS that the Felgers of the world blather on about.
 
Thanks! So is it basically about where the OLB ends up lining up?

Guide to NFL Defensive Schemes | The IDP Guru

here's a site with a rundown.
if you remember this offseason the big story was the pats were running a 4-3, and I'm pretty sure it was a 4-3 under, which is just a 4-3 with the line shifted a bit --- kind of ends up looking like an odd front (3-4) with an extra guy tacked on the end of the line, making it technically an even front (4-3).

and read this, too:
http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/06/repost-preview-of-nick-sabans-alabama.html

Saban has been coaching defense – and coaching it quite well – for decades. But there is no question that the defining period of his coaching career was 1991-1994, when he was Bill Belichick’s defensive coordinator with the Cleveland Browns......

ps

you could do a post like this every day and I'd read them, jay.
 
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Get Pat Kirwin's "Take Your Eye Off The Ball".

Kirwin gets great training camp, etc. interviews from Belichick on "Moving The Chains" on Sirius NFL radio as Kirwin is interested in football issues, not the BS that the Felgers of the world blather on about.

Yes, it is a fantastic show.

That book was OK, but frankly a little above my head. I understood it better the second time I read it.
 
Jay, I have a question on those outside rushes that went for big yards. One in particular. It was to the Denver left and in it Ninkovitch is being blocked by the TE. Early it looked like he had him under control, tbut hen snuck a quick look inside as the runner approached. When the RB saw that he broke outside.

Now here's the question. The RB beats Ninko to the outside, but then not a single DB shows up in the picture until the RB is about 8 yds down field. What I'd like you to figure out (if you can) since you have replay, what kind of secondary coverage the Pats were in that would cause that result. There seemed to be no force by an inverted S, nor was a CB ever in sight. Man coverage would somewhat explain it, but IIRC, the down and distance would make that seem unlikely, especially since it seemed to me that the Pats were essentially in zone coverages most of the game.

That lack of run support from the secondry showed up several times early in the game, and IMHO was more the cause of the success Denver had running the ball outside, than Ninko getting sucked in.

I'll look forward to your reply

You nailed that one, Ken.

The play is a 1st and 10 on the DEN 18 with 7:18 in the 1st quarter.

Denver is lined up with two TE's to the left of the formation, and one back. The ball is on the far hash, with the strength to the field.

NE is in a balanced 34 with Nink aligned as the Sam, playing head-up on the line on the outermost TE. Deaderick is the playside end in a 5-technique. Arrington is the playside corner, aligned outside the numbers head up on the x. *The safeties are showing 2-deep 20 yards off the line*. The play is a handoff directed between the 5-technique and the sam.

The inside TE and the T doubleteam Deaderick, the outside TE posts Ninkovich. The playside guard rubs Love at the nose and seals Mayo.

The aiming point for the back is the seam between Nink and the doubleteamed Deaderick. There is a hole initially in the B gap, but Fletcher stays home and shuts that lane down, forcing the initial bounce. Ninkovich jars the TE post, and actually lifts his blocker off of his feet. He is square and controls the outside shoulder of the TE. As the play develops, Deaderick penetrates the doubleteam and turns the play outside. Simultaneously, Nink reads the play going inside of him and moves to shed to the inside to make a play. The back sees Deaderick split the doubleteam and this causes the bounce. Nink at this point is committed to the inside. Arrington is coming hard laterally, with the recever trailing him trying to make a block. As this is happening, Fletcher is scraping in pursuit of the play. As the back cuts it outside, it was a perfect storm of positioning. Nink and Deaderick are negated by the bounce out, and Arrington is now is poor position with the receiver now having an easy seal. Nink is still in position to make a play and does a nice job trying to recover. However, his blocker makes a nice hold on the v of his breastplate. Arrington is blocked into Fletcher, taking them both out of the play.

Slater is coming too hard to the C gap, and is now out of position for run support. McGahee is able to get the angle on him, defeats an arm tackle with a stiff arm, and now is in a race to the pylon along the numbers. Of all people, McCourty coming in pursuit is able to finally push McGahee out of bounds after a 28 yard gain.

So, yes DB play is absolutely to blame in this play. However, it was played well initially by the playside defenders. In my mind, it was just a nice play by McGahee and bad luck the way the play went down.

Hell of an observation in real time!
 
Bumped for relevance...

Thanks for the bump.

To anyone who might be reading this, I'm not overly enthused about this game and likely won't be dedicating much time to making a similar post. The reason is that this thread explains exactly how the Patriots are going to beat Tebow on Saturday. With all of the speculative threads on the board right now, this is the explanation of how NE is going to win.
 
It seems like available personnel is a huge determinant for this team in whether the 3-4 can be a base defense against teams with less-than-elite passers. I suspect that the Pats will switch between the 3-4 and 4-3 this weekend to keep Denver guessing. With Chung, Fletcher and Spikes back, the speed and depth is far better than the first go-round.

It's interesting to get to this point and see rookie or non-elite QBs in the AFC when the pre-season was so focused on a building a big defensive line and an aggressive pass rush with Carter, Anderson, Ellis and Haynesworth. Carter went down in Denver in the 1st quarter, fundamentally changing the approach.

This is also not all about the defense. The Denver game provided a great test drive of making the switch mid-stream because Brady and the offense punched the Denver defense in the mouth and kept the heat on. Ochocinco's quick-strike TD put Denver on notice to stay home in their pass coverage. One can imagine that the Patriots will score early again at Gillette.

The 3-4 gets trickier against better offenses since the linebacking crew and defensive backfield is made up of guys with three or fewer years of experience. Our current fave = Sterling Moore - is playing in what, his sixth game in the NFL? It will be fun to watch how the Patriots attack Tebow this week.
 
Thanks for the bump.

To anyone who might be reading this, I'm not overly enthused about this game and likely won't be dedicating much time to making a similar post. The reason is that this thread explains exactly how the Patriots are going to beat Tebow on Saturday. With all of the speculative threads on the board right now, this is the explanation of how NE is going to win.

But wait...if that's what the Pats did last time, and you are John Fox and staff, what do you do in response? What are his options? Despite BB being better at this than he is, he isn't going to just role over and play dead.
 
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