Does BB Need To Bring In An Experienced DC To Rebuild The Defense?

I don't object to releasing players per se, but where's the personnel plan/direction?

McGowan
Meriweather
Bodden
Wilhite
Wheatley
Butler
Bodden
Sanders
Haynesworth
Crable
etc.

All played multiple games (seasons in some cases) for the team, all gone. The defensive personnel management approach seems to be perpetual turnover with no real improvement or direction.

NEP4Life said:

More than three years of "rebuilding" the defense and no significant progress has been made.

Is it time to bring in an experienced defensive co-ordinator, as Dom Capers was brought in previously, to take over the defensive schemes and personnel?

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should have never let capers go in the first place. I figured it was some type of turf battle that BB didn't want to relinquish total control of the D.

Snake Eyes said:

Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results, if BB isn't up to the task the only logical thing to do is bring in someone else, maybe RAC, perhaps Spags, or Mike Nolan, but it isn't getting done right now, why is a different perspective a bad thing?

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Yes it is which is what is so frustrating.. But what hotshot DC worth is salt is going to trust Belichick to relinquish control of his defense or not wrestle it back when adversity strikes. To me, the only way outside coaches come into this organization is if Belichick leaves. At this point, I'd rather give Belichick more time to get this fixed even though I doubt he'll succeed.

AndyJohnson said:

The defense last year, after week 3 allowed the 3rd fewest points in the NFL. Does that suck?

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Looking at points given up is misleading.

Last year, the Pats gave up a total of 10 turnovers all year. That's amazing, but moreover it meant that the defense was almost never put under stress from bad field position. The Pats offense made it as easy as it can get for its defense. Most other NFL defense didn't have that luxury.

Also, points don't include pick-6 or fumble returned for td, or TD on special team. Looking at that 3rd fewest point stats is reflecting on the whole team, not just the defense. And I think that last year, with the offense being in top 5 all-time, they carried a lot more weight than the defense did.

This year, the offense is less dominant. They are giving up turnovers, and as we saw on Brady's fumble against the Giants, the defense was very quick in 'converting' the offense mistake into a TD.

Defense should be evaluated on efficiency, not on volume stats like points given up. I don't care if the defense played well enough to go into the 4th quarter with a 10-3 score. What I want to see, is when the game is on the line and the defense is on the field, can they get out with the win ? At this time they can't. On the other side, with the game on the line and the offense on the field, even though the Pats offense had been terrible against both the Giants and Cowboys for most of the game, they delivered a TD each time on their final drive.

It's all about efficiency, not volume. On a given situation, can they execute or they can't ?

Well, both Landry and Noll coached for 11 years after their last Super Bowl win.

The outlier is Shula, who won his second Super Bowl in 1973, then hung on for (*gulp*) 22 years.

He has to look for a defensive coordinator this offseason, I know we've played well the last few games, but we can play much better.

NEP4Life said:

I don't object to releasing players per se, but where's the personnel plan/direction?

McGowan
Meriweather
Bodden
Wilhite
Wheatley
Butler
Bodden
Sanders
Haynesworth
Crable
etc.

All played multiple games (seasons in some cases) for the team, all gone. The defensive personnel management approach seems to be perpetual turnover with no real improvement or direction.

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It's a matter of talent or the lack of talent on the Patriots defense not coaching.

Have not read all the threads, but IMO he is continuing his assessment of Pepper and Particia to see who will be the next DC... last year was leaning towards Patricia, but his year Pepper seems to have taken the lead.

The defensive issues persist.

BB the GM has built a secondary of scrubs.

This bodes ill for the playoffs.

NEP4Life said:

BB the GM has built a secondary of scrubs.

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The Patriots have a scouting department. Surely they provide BB with the information he needs to make draft/personnel decisions. If it's perceived that BB is making poor personnel decisions then maybe it's because the information he's getting sucks. Maybe Nick Caserio's role needs to be looked at.

Note : Moved to drafting thread.

Top 4 rounds over the last 5 years (excluding 2011) between the Steelers and Pats:

New England drafts (06 - 10)

2010

1 Devin McCourty Rutgers (Good - Jury is out)
2 Rob Gronkowski Arizona (Great)
2 Jermaine Cunningham Florida (Incomplete/Not looking good)
2 Brandon Spikes Florida (Good)
3 Taylor Price Ohio (Bust)
4 Aaron Hernandez Florida (Very Good)

2009

2 Patrick Chung Oregon (Good)
2 Ron Brace Boston College (Incomplete/Not looking good)
2 Darius Butler Connecticut (Bust)
2 Sebastian Vollmer Houston (Good)
3 Brandon Tate North Carolina (Bust)
3 Tyrone McKenzie South Florida (Bust)
4 Rich Ohrnberger Penn State (Adequate)

2008

1 Jerod Mayo Tennessee (Very Good)
2 Terrence Wheatley Colorado (Bust)
3 Shawn Crable Michigan (Bust)
3 Kevin O'Connell San Diego State (Bust)
4 Jonathan Wilhite Auburn (Adequate)

2007

1 Brandon Meriweather Miami (Good)
4 Kareem Brown Miami (Bust)

2006

1 Laurence Maroney Minnesota (Semi-Bust)
2 Chad Jackson Florida (Bust)
3 Dave Thomas Texas (Adequate - Hurt)
4 Garrett Mills Tulsa (Bust)
4 Stephen Gostkowski Memphis (Very Good)



Pittsburgh Drafts (06 - 10)

2010

1 Maurkice Pouncey Florida (Great)
2 Jason Worilds Virginia Tech (Jury is out)
3 Emmanuel Sanders (Very Good)
4 Thaddeus Gibson Ohio State (Adequate/Bust)


2009

1 Evander Hood Missouri (Very Good)
3 Kraig Urbik Wisconsin (Bust)
3 Mike Wallace Mississippi (Great)
3 Keenan Lewis Oregon State (Bust)


2008

1 Rashard Mendenhall Illinois (Very Good)
2 Limas Sweed Texas (Bust)
3 Bruce Davis UCLA (Bust)
4 Tony Hills Texas (Bust)


2007

1 Lawrence Timmons Florida State (Very Good)
2 LaMarr Woodley Michigan (Great)
3 Matt Spaeth Minnesota (Adequate)
4 Daniel Sepulveda Baylor (Adequate)
4 Ryan McBean Oklahoma State (Bust)


2006

1 Santonio Holmes Ohio State (Great)
3 Anthony Smith Syracuse (Bust)
3 Willie Reid Florida State (Bust)
4 Willie Colon Hofstra (Very Good)
4 Orien Harris Miami (FL) (Bust)

The Pittsburgh Steelers are a team of comparison and I use them because we have both traditionally been picking in the bottom of each round.

Pats (25 total picks)

4 - 1st round picks
9 - 2nd round picks
6 - 3rd round picks
6 - 4th round picks

Steelers (22 total picks)

5 - 1st round picks
3 - 2nd round picks
8 - 3rd round picks
6 - 4th round picks

(13 round 1 and 2 picks for the Pats compared to only 8 for the Steelers)

3 less total picks compared to the Patriots over the last 5 years and notice the 2nd round pick totals comparison:

The Steelers have only had (3) - 2nd round picks compared to the Patriots
(9) - 2nd round picks. The total of first rounders is comparable (5 for Pitt, 4 for the Pats) and look at the value they got from their picks, even when drafting more lower round picks than the Pats.

Pitt

(4 - Great picks)
(3 - Very Good picks)

New England

(1 - Great pick)
(3 - Very Good picks)

It's time to get someone else in here who can pick the groceries.

The_Riddler said:

2006

1 Santonio Holmes Ohio State (Great)
3 Anthony Smith Syracuse (Very Good)
3 Willie Reid Florida State (Bust)
4 Willie Colon Hofstra (Very Good)
4 Orien Harris Miami (FL) (Bust)

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I still agree with your post, but Anthony Smith was a very good pick? Lol.

He was a starter for one season before getting released and even during that season got benched.

BaltimorePatsFan said:

I still agree with your post, but Anthony Smith was a very good pick? Lol.

He was a starter for one season before getting released and even during that season got benched.

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Thanks, I missed one. I have made the correction.

I think you're being a little too generous when evaluating talent the Pats drafted:

New England drafts (06 - 10)

2010

1 Devin McCourty Rutgers (Adequate, arrow is point down, hopefully will rebound soon)
2 Rob Gronkowski Arizona (Great, best TE in the game)
2 Jermaine Cunningham Florida (Bust)
2 Brandon Spikes Florida (Adequate, needs to get healthy)
3 Taylor Price Ohio (Bust)
4 Aaron Hernandez Florida (Very Good)

2009

2 Patrick Chung Oregon (Good)
2 Ron Brace Boston College (Bust)
2 Darius Butler Connecticut (Bust)
2 Sebastian Vollmer Houston (Good)
3 Brandon Tate North Carolina (Bust)
3 Tyrone McKenzie South Florida (Bust)
4 Rich Ohrnberger Penn State (Adequate)

2008

1 Jerod Mayo Tennessee (Very Good)
2 Terrence Wheatley Colorado (Bust)
3 Shawn Crable Michigan (Bust)
3 Kevin O'Connell San Diego State (Bust)
4 Jonathan Wilhite Auburn (Bust)

2007

1 Brandon Meriweather Miami (Bust)
4 Kareem Brown Miami (Bust)

2006

1 Laurence Maroney Minnesota (Bust)
2 Chad Jackson Florida (Bust)
3 Dave Thomas Texas (Adequate)
4 Garrett Mills Tulsa (Bust)
4 Stephen Gostkowski Memphis (Good)

DDR had more of an impact than Daniel Thomas.

I'm having a difficult time following the criteria (if there even was any) that either of the two folks above used for their labels. For example, why is Santonio Holmes 'great' while Brandon Meriweather and Laurence Maroney are 'busts'? What is that based on, one play? And how is it that Willie Colon and Emmanuel Sanders are both 'very good', while Sebastian Vollmer, for example, is a notch below at 'good'?

The only conclusion I am seeing from this exercise is that the grass is much, much greener on the other side.

The_Riddler said:

Note : Moved to drafting thread.

Top 4 rounds over the last 5 years (excluding 2011) between the Steelers and Pats:

...

It's time to get someone else in here who can pick the groceries.

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What a joke. I read those draft picks and came away wondering why, exactly, you would criticize the Patriots for drafting at nearly the same level as one of the better front offices in the league.

Funny how when you don't exclude the "Good" players, the complexion of our drafts completely change:

(1 - "Great" pick)
(3 - "Very good" picks)
(5 - "Good" picks)

That's 9 starting quality selections. And I have no idea how Emmanuel Sanders got evaluated to the same level as Aaron Hernandez.

I'd also argue that Vollmer should be nothing less than a "Very Good" pick, seeing as you claim that Colon is one, and Vollmer is easily twice the player he is.

The answer is still yes. Bring in an experienced DC who can still implement BB's system, make some minor tweaks to it, and have his say on draft day. Following the season, a big part of the defense needs to be completely re-tooled. Get someone on the defensive side of the ball that's been successful in this league before and hire him.

KontradictioN said:

The answer is still yes. Bring in an experienced DC who can still implement BB's system, make some minor tweaks to it, and have his say on draft day. Following the season, a big part of the defense needs to be completely re-tooled. Get someone on the defensive side of the ball that's been successful in this league before and hire him.

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DC's don't get a say on draft day anywhere. And being successful in this league before doesn't necessarily correlate to success here or anywhere else for that matter. Coordinator's by and large make their bones by making the best of the hand they are dealt by the HC and/or GM.

Bill has had total control of football ops since the day he arrived here. The day that changes will be the day he seriously contemplates moving on.

I’d definitely like a DC brought in, I wanted RAC as well as Mike Nolan and Wade Phillips.