Corner - How Bad Is It?

borg said:

Why would a QB worry about a pass rush....just locate McCourty presnap, hike the ball, and fire it to McCourty's guy....This is what is happening. Instead of needing time to locate a 2nd WR...boom. McCourty's sucktitude affects the pass rush. The interesting thing is there is little safety help for him....maybe a commentary on the ineptitude of the new S group. More likely that offenses keep McCourty near the sidelines where safety help will be late ....their preferable matchup.

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I don't think this is entirely true.

First off let me say McCourty is not having the type of year he had last season. He appears bigger and a bit stiffer, but most important he lacks the explosiveness that he had last year.

That said, think about the Miami game, he is up tight on Marshall and because he has to cover way too long, he gets beat, a lot, all game long.

Same thing happens the next several games.

So then McCourty starts playing off coverage and leaving eight yard gaps bewteen him and the receiver. Why? Cause he knows he does not have a pass rush so he wants to keep everything in front of him. (He also does not trust the safties, but that is a different piece of the puzzle.)

Why does the New England defense get better in the red zone? Because the DB's have to play up and are not so worried about being beaten deep and they know they have LBer help underneath. (Still no trust for the safties)

Bottom line is that the New England secondary is not that talented and except for Arrington having a down year. (Don't blame Boyer for this) but the single biggest factor in their poor play is the utter lack of a New England pass rush, which is forcing the New England DB's play off coverage in order to keep the play in front of them.

If New England ever gets a pass rush, (Can you say trade up and draft Copples?)
I promise it will appear that the DB's are playing much better.

mgteich said:

We have started the season with McCourty, Arrington, Bodden, Molden and Dowling.

We weren't even sure that Dowling would play corner. Molden beat out Butler and Wilhite for a roster spot.

How bad off are we with Arrington, McCourty and Molden as our corners. We also have Jones and Edelman as emergency, injury and garbage time backups?

SOME THOUGHTS
1) I never counted on Dowling.
2) I was disappointed when Bodden was injured. However, this is NOT unexpected when someone is coming back from an injury.
3) Arrington is playing better than anyone could hope. McCourty has contributed much less. However, these are 2 solid starters.

BOTTOM LINE
As McCourty's health improves, this group will be fine. They are probably not good enough to stop GB or NO, but I don't think that anyone is.

If we have some health from McCourty, Chung, Spikes and Fletcher, we should have a reasonable shot at beating BALT and PITT.

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Pretty much how I see it. This defense is not going to be great but healthy they have a shot to be good enough to give them a fighting chance against anyone, GB included because they are not going to be able to stop NE either. I think Belichik has been playing it safe with his injured saving them for when it really counts as he is pretty certain he can set them up for the play-offs without risking those who are hurt. Fletcher and McCourty are 2 guys who could really make a big difference if they can be on the field and playing their best as the patriots haven't had that from them all season.

Ochmed Jones said:

...So then McCourty starts playing off coverage and leaving eight yard gaps bewteen him and the receiver. Why? Cause he knows he does not have a pass rush so he wants to keep everything in front of him. (He also does not trust the safties, but that is a different piece of the puzzle.)

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No, he started playing off because the team switched from man to zone. The team switched from man to zone because the defense, particularly McCourty, was getting beaten like a red-headed stepchild in man coverage.

Ochmed Jones said:

Why does the New England defense get better in the red zone? Because the DB's have to play up and are not so worried about being beaten deep and they know they have LBer help underneath. (Still no trust for the safties)

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It gets better because the spaces in the zones are smaller, which means the defense has a much bigger advantage, and because the deep throw becomes essentially a non-factor, meaning the deep ball defense and deep speed issues also become almost non-factors.

Ochmed Jones said:

Bottom line is that the New England secondary is not that talented and except for Arrington having a down year. (Don't blame Boyer for this) but the single biggest factor in their poor play is the utter lack of a New England pass rush, which is forcing the New England DB's play off coverage in order to keep the play in front of them.

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This would make more sense if it weren't for the pass rush being better this year than last, while the pass defense in the secondary is as bad as it's ever been under BB.

Ochmed Jones said:

If New England ever gets a pass rush, (Can you say trade up and draft Copples?)
I promise it will appear that the DB's are playing much better.

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I expect that the Patriots will work very intensely with McCourty during the upcoming offseason, and I expect a much improved McCourty next season.

As for the draft, the Patriots have needs at S, OLB and WR at a minimum, which means that BB will draft a TE and a tackle with his first two picks.

I'm not inclined to separate the CB play from the rest of the coverage unit. Over the top help, brackets inside, etc. means that CB play is influenced by the other units...and vice versa.

If the coverage unit was inept, the Pats would be unable to prevent scoring equally across all 4 quarters. That simply isn't happening (stats from here):

Q1 = 3.3 points (2.2 Home/3.6 Away) - Rank #11
Q2 = 4.7 points (2.8 Home/6.5 Away) - Rank #4
Q3 = 3.6 points (3.3 Home/3.8 Away) - Rank #8
Q4 = 9.0 points (9.8 Home/8.2 Away) - Rank #31

Outside of the 2nd quarter away anomaly, the scoring D is phenomenal until the 4th quarter...then it falls off a cliff. Part of it is garbage time scoring. But I believe most of the scoring is a result of overall team breakdowns and the inability of the defense to hold a lead.

If the Pats secondary was historically bad, then the opposing offenses are equally bad for not being able to take advantage until they fall behind. While it is easy to make snap judgements, the reality here is much more complex.

Obviously the Pats need to do better late in games, but that is a much smaller problem space than "can't play man" or "just find McCourty and throw there" or some of the other garbage being thrown around.

Metaphors said:

I'm not inclined to separate the CB play from the rest of the coverage unit. Over the top help, brackets inside, etc. means that CB play is influenced by the other units...and vice versa.

If the coverage unit was inept, the Pats would be unable to prevent scoring equally across all 4 quarters. That simply isn't happening (stats from here):

Q1 = 3.3 points (2.2 Home/3.6 Away) - Rank #11
Q2 = 4.7 points (2.8 Home/6.5 Away) - Rank #4
Q3 = 3.6 points (3.3 Home/3.8 Away) - Rank #8
Q4 = 9.0 points (9.8 Home/8.2 Away) - Rank #31

Outside of the 2nd quarter away anomaly, the scoring D is phenomenal until the 4th quarter...then it falls off a cliff. Part of it is garbage time scoring. But I believe most of the scoring is a result of overall team breakdowns and the inability of the defense to hold a lead.

If the Pats secondary was historically bad, then the opposing offenses are equally bad for not being able to take advantage until they fall behind. While it is easy to make snap judgements, the reality here is much more complex.

Obviously the Pats need to do better late in games, but that is a much smaller problem space than "can't play man" or "just find McCourty and throw there" or some of the other garbage being thrown around.

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Include % pass vs rush for each quarter and you will make a better case....or debunk it

Ivan said:

I really hate to call anyone a ****** but in your case i will make an exception.

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Fact: QBs are firing at McCourty to the tune of 120+ passer rating.
.........McCourty is getting abused on sideline patterns
.........Safeties aren't doubling the wide WR at the snap because the center of the field would be left open.
Gameplan: locate McCourty, fire at McCourty, score on McCourty. Sorry to get your fanboy panties in a bunch.

Based on his performance this season, McCourty has the potential to become the new "sorriest corner in the league."

Seriously, his twin brother's so much better than him and that guy was a 6th round pick. Not from the same draft class, but nonetheless.

BaltimorePatsFan said:

Based on his performance this season, McCourty has the potential to become the new "sorriest corner in the league."

Seriously, his twin brother's so much better than him and that guy was a 6th round pick. Not from the same draft class, but nonetheless.

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Thank you for your typical glass-is-broken-into-shards-on-the-ground perspective.

JackBauer said:

Thank you for your typical glass-is-broken-into-shards-on-the-ground perspective.

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Thank you. I take my trolling very seriously.

borg said:

Include % pass vs rush for each quarter and you will make a better case....or debunk it

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No. Your premise is that it is inordinately easy to pass against the Pats, particularly McCourty. If that is the case, why would it matter which quarter the Pats defense was abused? Why run early if it is so easy to pass?

In the NFL, you can't hide an inept defender like a Little League rightfielder. If you can't play, you get picked on and teams score at will. That just isn't happening against the Pats. What is your explanation for that? Are teams too stupid to realize what to do until the 4th quarter?

mgteich said:

We have started the season with McCourty, Arrington, Bodden, Molden and Dowling.

We weren't even sure that Dowling would play corner. Molden beat out Butler and Wilhite for a roster spot.

How bad off are we with Arrington, McCourty and Molden as our corners. We also have Jones and Edelman as emergency, injury and garbage time backups?

SOME THOUGHTS
1) I never counted on Dowling.
2) I was disappointed when Bodden was injured. However, this is NOT unexpected when someone is coming back from an injury.
3) Arrington is playing better than anyone could hope. McCourty has contributed much less. However, these are 2 solid starters.

BOTTOM LINE
As McCourty's health improves, this group will be fine. They are probably not good enough to stop GB or NO, but I don't think that anyone is.

If we have some health from McCourty, Chung, Spikes and Fletcher, we should have a reasonable shot at beating BALT and PITT.

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After watching the Colt's game, if you believe McCourty, healthy or not, is
an asset to this team, I don't know what else to say.

If you judge that McCourty is not an asset to the team based on his first game back fter an injury, I don'y know what else to say.

The Boston Patriot said:

After watching the Colt's game, if you believe McCourty, healthy or not, is
an asset to this team, I don't know what else to say.

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At some point people need to feel it's okay to criticize BB on not rebuilding this defense well. He simply has not done a good job at all. He has not been nearly aggressive enough in finding pass rushers especially with all of those picks he's had all these years and let's face it the Pats still have a pretty weak secondary that no one really trusts. I'd like to see Kraft or someone else get involved in management and make it a strong issue to go all out to build a top notch defense here again. There were some pretty good CB's on the market in the off season and the Pats weren't in the stakes at all to get any of those top dogs out there like Nnamdi or Joseph. Mario Williams might end up being available after this season possibly. I'm not sure if the Texans will spend the money to resign him or not, but he'd be a pretty damn good upgrade to that pass rush.

mgteich said:

If you judge that McCourty is not an asset to the team based on his first game back fter an injury, I don'y know what else to say.

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There isn't anything you can say in defense of that effort, even playing the
'first game back after an injury' card. They might as well have put a lineman
back there. He couldn't have done worse.

What excuse is there for "it's only McCourty's second game back" now?

I am inetersted in what else is there since he was beaten soundly by a #3 WR (Gaffeney) today. He gave up 1st down after 1st down, mixing in a 59 yard and a penalty.

mgteich said:

If you judge that McCourty is not an asset to the team based on his first game back fter an injury, I don'y know what else to say.

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I wish I could point to the problem with McCourty.

As good as he was last year at driving on the ball on the air, he looks like a completely different player this year. His man is either wide open, or he covers but allows the reception.

I can't see what it is he is doing that leads to such poor results. Apparently the coaches don't either.

Arrington is an average corner. He's had an OTIS type season - there for the fortuitous INT, but burned on quick cuts.

Teams should never bother running.

I'm sort of tired of the 'let's cut a player Sunday morning and pick someone else up off the street' approach to the defense. It's not clear how adding a defensive player a couple hours before gametime really helps the team, but it's also not obvious that anyone has played any worse than the core secondary.

It's time for some coaching magic.

Urgent said:

I wish I could point to the problem with McCourty.

As good as he was last year at driving on the ball on the air, he looks like a completely different player this year. His man is either wide open, or he covers but allows the reception.

I can't see what it is he is doing that leads to such poor results. Apparently the coaches don't either.

Arrington is an average corner. He's had an OTIS type season - there for the fortuitous INT, but burned on quick cuts.

Teams should never bother running.

I'm sort of tired of the 'let's cut a player Sunday morning and pick someone else up off the street' approach to the defense. It's not clear how adding a defensive player a couple hours before gametime really helps the team, but it's also not obvious that anyone has played any worse than the core secondary.

It's time for some coaching magic.

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You've been witnessing coaching magic all season. This team's defense is terrible, yet the team is two games up in the division and on the way to the playoffs.

robbomango said:

new potential

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Give this man a contract!

We should move VW to CB. PROBLEM SOLVED!