Underwood draws notice at WR + Gaffney comments on 3rd WR role

VJCPatriot said:

If Gronk outscores Calvin Johnson how is that overrating the matchup? Also how many TD runs has Calvin Johnson blocked for compared to Gronk?

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funny you mention that

BenJarvus Green-Ellis, RB for the New England Patriots at NFL.com
the top highlight on the right is GRONK blocking for the lawfirm into the endzone.

VJCPatriot said:

If Gronk outscores Calvin Johnson how is that overrating the matchup? Also how many TD runs has Calvin Johnson blocked for compared to Gronk? Football is a game of mismatches. Gronk is just the best in the game at his position right now and his offensive numbers are beastly. He is neck and neck with CJ for the receiving TD crown AS a tight end! Do you realize how insane that is?

I thought this thread was about Underwood... LOL.

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Well, first, let's note that Stafford is not Brady.

Second, let's note that Johnson is drawing double coverages by the best pass defenders on the field, while Gronk is not.

Third, TDs are a relatively inconsistent number, as even the current single season record holder, Randy Moss, demonstrates when you look at his career numbers. Yes, he's got the record with 23 catches in a season. He also had years with 7,8,3 and 5 TD receptions, with a couple of those numbers coming in his prime receiving years.

Fourth,

Graham: 75 catches for 1046 yards.
Gronk: 65 catches for 928

So, going with a "look only at the numbers" approach, one can easily argue that Graham is at least the equal of Gronk. I know you're going to try arguing that Gronk has more TDs, but Graham has more catches and more yards. And, after all, it's all about the numbers, right?

back on topic, on NESN they were breaking down video of ochos 10snaps today...and it was pretty clear that he didnt look like he knew what he was doing out there.

they then went to Underwood on his 10yard catch where he knew exactly where to be, so brady got him the ball for a 10yd gain. im hoping to see more of the kid this week against the redskins

RIpats88 said:

back on topic, on NESN they were breaking down video of ochos 10snaps today...and it was pretty clear that he didnt look like he knew what he was doing out there.

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Which brings us full circle to the commentary that Troy Brown and Wiggy have been offering all year. Gaffney's retrospective confirmed this.

A buddy of mine who played WR for a Div I school (who is now a working stiff just like me) had a great analogy that made me understand a little what OC is going through here. He likened what OC is going through here to going to a foreign country, staying there for a few weeks, learning the language to be functional but never enough to apply it to casual conversation or cultural situations where you need to be savvy. Your reactions are slowed. You are overly cautious and afraid to make mistakes which makes you timid. I could relate to that.

He likened his experience as a freshmen in his college football program to that same kind of experience both he and I had both shared. It made sense.

With that said, my gut tells me that OC needs another year in this system to be truly productive. The question is do his contract and age allow for it.

Deus Irae said:

Well, first, let's note that Stafford is not Brady.

Second, let's note that Johnson is drawing double coverages by the best pass defenders on the field, while Gronk is not.

Third, TDs are a relatively inconsistent number, as even the current single season record holder, Randy Moss, demonstrates when you look at his career numbers. Yes, he's got the record with 23 catches in a season. He also had years with 7,8,3 and 5 TD receptions, with a couple of those numbers coming in his prime receiving years.

Fourth,

Graham: 75 catches for 1046 yards.
Gronk: 65 catches for 928

So, going with a "look only at the numbers" approach, one can easily argue that Graham is at least the equal of Gronk. I know you're going to try arguing that Gronk has more TDs, but Graham has more catches and more yards. And, after all, it's all about the numbers, right?

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Graham is a WR playing TE, we go back to blocking again.


and I`m pretty sure Gronk has more TD`s then him to

aurakilla said:

Graham is a WR playing TE, we go back to blocking again.


and I`m pretty sure Gronk has more TD`s then him to

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At 6'7" and 260 lbs, Graham is a tight end, despite your characterization.

And I noted that Gronk has more TDs. Graham has more catches for more yards.

thought it'd be fun to look at a what if? scenario

This is looking at Gronks potential numbers up until this current week 2011 if he were to play under mathew stafford and Calvin under Brady.

Gronk 35rec 450yds 14.3avg 8tds 40time 4.65 hgt 6'6" wght 265

Calvin 85rec 1,375yd 15.8avg 15tds 40time 4.35 hgt 6'5" wght 236

i'm not sure how they work TE's into their offensive schemes but it's just a guess. Scheffler has about 5 TD's for them I beleive

We had to get by with midgets (that failed elsewhere) at WR, we have no DBs with any reliable playmaking, we have no play making from LB. The only thing keeping this mirage going is magic of #12.

Isn't the coaching staff undermining the team by pigen-holing to such system that yields more personnel failure than success ? Someone has the job to make the system work its players... what other team has such rapid turn overs?

Veteran and young WRs alike can't figure out this system (Gallaway, Jackson, Ocho, Price); DB after DBs can not play the system (Merriwether, Sanders, Butler, Weatley, Wilhite); normal LBs can not play the sysetem; we passed on studs after studs; the Cushings/Mathews/Dunlups/Barwins; and we draft so called smarter players Crables/Cunninghums, and still they can't seem to play the system. We rotate in veterans in and out every week, nothing material emerges from these futile yet never ceasing exercises. The fan base eagerly anticipates the next move to be successful (remember high hopes for the WR 3 from emerging of Price, or success of Ocho at begining of the year? or the emerging of Ros-I and Bodden to solidify the CB); yet again and again, you are let down. Often in stupifying fashion (as in release of Merri and Sanders, being replaced by guys like Molden). Yet the team and the media made very clear it's the player's fault; the payers that failed to learn and adopt.

RIpats88 said:

Underwoods actually got some good athletic fundamentals..similar to prices. the one knock on him was that hes not the strongest (7 reps of 225). Kid can be a burner though

we need to keep getting this kid snaps, although I wonder why we hung on so long to price/Ocho who obviously didnt understand the offense. and only now sign this kid who might actually get it

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Deus Irae said:

Well, first, let's note that Stafford is not Brady.

Second, let's note that Johnson is drawing double coverages by the best pass defenders on the field, while Gronk is not.

Third, TDs are a relatively inconsistent number, as even the current single season record holder, Randy Moss, demonstrates when you look at his career numbers. Yes, he's got the record with 23 catches in a season. He also had years with 7,8,3 and 5 TD receptions, with a couple of those numbers coming in his prime receiving years.

Fourth,

Graham: 75 catches for 1046 yards.
Gronk: 65 catches for 928

So, going with a "look only at the numbers" approach, one can easily argue that Graham is at least the equal of Gronk. I know you're going to try arguing that Gronk has more TDs, but Graham has more catches and more yards. And, after all, it's all about the numbers, right?

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Those Moss TD's made me go back & back up what I remember. Moss is the only wide receiver to ever have 3 seasons of 17TD's & 1300 yards. Not even Jerry did that! Hell Moss did it with a combination of 5 different quarterbacks!

98' Brad Johnson for 2 games- Randall Cunningham for 14 games= 69 catches for 1347 yards & 17TD's.

03' Culpepper for 12 games- Gus Frerotte for 4 games= 111 grabs for 1632 yards & 17TD's. Frerotte was named NFL player of the month during those 4 games.

07' Brady 98 grabs for 1498 yards & 23 TD's.

robbomango said:

I would've started a new thread for the question (Gronk or Calvin?)but I'm a dumb noob and couldn't figure it out how, lol.

Their 2011 stats are below for reference.

Calvin 69rec 1,092yd 15.8avg 12tds 40time 4.35 hgt 6'5" wght 236

Gronk 65rec 928yds 14.3avg 13tds 40time 4.65 hgt 6'6" wght 265

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I just want to point out that Gronk is more valuable for this team than Calvin would be as pointed out with great points by some posters in this thread.

I also want to point out how its funny how folks thought Calvin was going to break Moss's record when he was scoring left and right this season and now he's not even going to come close..funny how things change threw out the season.

Third, after all the hype and pee pee sucking of him I decided to watch some Lions games, and I dont get all the hype, I really dont.

Give Me Gronk any day of the week.

Its all about the match-ups, you can put a CB and a saftey on Calvin and effectively take him out ofthe game, we watched teams do this first hand to Moss. The problem (for the defense) with the Gronk is that he is a match-up nightmare. Plus Gronk has a much better QB. Watch the last few games, when teams have brought in CBs and extra DBs to stop the Pats passing games, Brady has checked to runs. Did you see Gronk destroying that CB? He just blew him ten yeards back. That is the difference between a WR and a TE, if you take the WR out of the game, it costs you two guys, if you try and take Gronk out of the game, suddenly you have a 6'6" TE run blocking a 175lb 5'8" CB and backs making ten yard gains all over the field.

Look Calvin Johnson is a great player, and put him with Brady he would even be better, but he is only a threat in the passing game, Gronk on the other hand is an excellent blocker, has the size to overmatch any DB, and is right now, the best all around TE in the game.

3 games to go and hes got 16 tds.......Jesus

Deus Irae said:

Well, first, let's note that Stafford is not Brady.

Second, let's note that Johnson is drawing double coverages by the best pass defenders on the field, while Gronk is not.

Third, TDs are a relatively inconsistent number, as even the current single season record holder, Randy Moss, demonstrates when you look at his career numbers. Yes, he's got the record with 23 catches in a season. He also had years with 7,8,3 and 5 TD receptions, with a couple of those numbers coming in his prime receiving years.

Fourth,

Graham: 75 catches for 1046 yards.
Gronk: 65 catches for 928

So, going with a "look only at the numbers" approach, one can easily argue that Graham is at least the equal of Gronk. I know you're going to try arguing that Gronk has more TDs, but Graham has more catches and more yards. And, after all, it's all about the numbers, right?

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Ever heard of blocking? Oh, I'm sorry, I mistakenly thought you were trying to make a legit argument, not playing the role of the blind contrian. My bad.