2011 Offseason

IllegalContact said:

I could care less what others argue.....

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Sivy said:

These threads are ok but moss threads aren't?

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Rob0729 said:

Not true. The Patriots have been shifting away from a 3-4 for a while now. The Pats were mostly in a 4 man front all of last year. Besides, the Pats' 4-3 isn't much different than their 3-4 instead of the outside guy with his hand in the dirt rather than standing.

The reason why Belichick has shifted mostly to a 4-3 this year is because the league has changed so much that the defense is mostly in subpackages (which are almost exclusively 4 man fronts) and he felt with no offseason it was easier to stay in a four man front almost exclusively than try to make the team learn multiple defense. That is his own explaination. Besides, the Pats have done a lot of 3-4 in a handful of games. It isn't like they abandoned it all together.

You do realize that this 3-4 coach won a Super Bowl with the Patriots playing almost exclusively a 4-3. He ran the 4-3 in 2001 for the last 3/4 of the season and the playoffs.

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mgteich said:

We will extend you this same courtesy.

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IllegalContact said:

I could care less what others argue.....

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IllegalContact said:

you really don't know what you are talking about.....if the pats were 'shifting to a 4-3' as you say, then they would not have drafted spikes, cunningham, and brace. they resorted to the 4-3 in an attempt to improve the pass rush, but the pass rush has not improved.....the pats are on course to have even fewer sacks than they did last year.....this fantasy that carter has improved the pass rush is a joke.....all it has done is consolidate who gets the sacks while also reducing the total number of sacks.

the pats basic set is the 4-3 this year (at least until now) and it was 3-4 last year.

the 4-3 the pats used in 2001 has nothing to do with the 4-3 going on now......in 2001, the 4-3 was used due to a lack of a true NT...now it is due to lack of a true OLB...

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The Patriots are known as a 3-4 defense, but that's not what they played in the majority of their snaps. In fact, it wasn't even close.


Of 1,101 defensive plays charted by ESPNBoston.com (including some penalties and 2-point conversions), the Patriots were in a sub package 628 times. That's a 57 percent clip.



Meanwhile, the defense was in a base 3-4 alignment 441 times (40 percent) and short-yardage personnel on 32 snaps (3 percent).

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IllegalContact said:

yes, carter does affect things given he has no ability to cover .... obviously, pass rush or not, losing the ability to drop 8 into coverage when he is in there has been a problem, and can directly affect safety performance. maybe you should lear about the 2 schemes before you bother to spout.

fact is, the pats were better off with TBC in the 3-4 than carter in the 4-3.......otherwise, the bottom line would be different......the scheme change has adversely affected each individual in the entire unit.


why are you so angry?

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Rob0729 said:

I am not angry I just get annoyed when dealing with stupidity.

TBC sucks and he couldn't get on the field last year. I know as a Jets fan, you don't get to see too many Patriots games. But TBC was phased out of the defense last year.

Also, he couldn't drop into coverage either. He became more of a pass rush specialist last year and taken off the field when they went into most sub packages. He rarely if ever dropped into coverage.

If anyone thought TBC was any good, he wouldn't be unemployed right now. He sucked last year and Carter is a huge upgrade.

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IllegalContact said:

the how the hell can you live with yourself?

its not that TBC is good.....its that the carter scheme is not any better...in fact its worse than anything that was done last year.

I see just as many pats games as you do.....I'm just not drunk on kool-aid when I watch them

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Rob0729 said:

Wow! You really exposed your ignorance in this post.

1.) The Pats defense was not a 3-4 defense last year and it is well documented. They only were in a 3-4 defense 40% of the snaps last year and in a four man front 60% of the time last year (57% of the time in sub packages and 3% in goaline/short yardage formations). The Pats have been shifting away from the 3-4 for a couple of years.

Here is a column from Mike Reiss in January documenting that:



Why the New England Patriots should think outside their system when making draft decisions - ESPN Boston

2.) Sacks are not the only measure of pressuring the passer, but right now Andre Carter has 4.5 sacks in 8 games (So does Mark Anderson). TBC had 5 sacks in 16 games. So both Carter and Anderson are on pace to have 9 sacks or 4 more than TBC. In fact, both Carter and Anderson are on pace to beat the sack leader from last year (Mike Wright with 5.5 sacks). So there is legitimate proof that you are wrong.

Now go on and change the argument after I proved you wrong on both accounts. You Jets fans are really slow aren't you.

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Rob0729 said:

LOL! You go with that. No one agrees with you, but you see something everyone else doesn't. Even the people who agree that Belichick has done a horrible job with the defense conceed that Carter is one of the lone good moves he has made.

But way to ignore the facts I posted in the last post.

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IllegalContact said:

and yet, the pats are a worse pass rushing and pass defense team than last year....ok gotcha......for someone who says those stats dont' matter much, you're sure doing a good job of talking out of both sides of your mouth.....



more kool-aid-soaked jibberish

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Rob0729 said:

I'm done with your stupidity. I think this thread has exposed you as a fraud and most have probably added you to the ignore list. That is good enough for me.

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Rob0729 said:

Not true. The Patriots have been shifting away from a 3-4 for a while now. The Pats were mostly in a 4 man front all of last year. Besides, the Pats' 4-3 isn't much different than their 3-4 instead of the outside guy with his hand in the dirt rather than standing.

The reason why Belichick has shifted mostly to a 4-3 this year is because the league has changed so much that the defense is mostly in subpackages (which are almost exclusively 4 man fronts) and he felt with no offseason it was easier to stay in a four man front almost exclusively than try to make the team learn multiple defense. That is his own explaination. Besides, the Pats have done a lot of 3-4 in a handful of games. It isn't like they abandoned it all together.

You do realize that this 3-4 coach won a Super Bowl with the Patriots playing almost exclusively a 4-3. He ran the 4-3 in 2001 for the last 3/4 of the season and the playoffs.

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Rob0729 said:

I will admit that I am very disapointed the Pats didn't draft an OLB last night. I think their d-line need is overrated because that position has already been upgraded with the return of Ty Warren, Mike Wright, and Myron Pryor. OLB is a real need though. Perhaps Belichick is going to get one in free agency since he doesn't like to groom OLBs typically. The only way I can see they can salvage the OLB in the draft is if they get Sam Acho or Chris Carter.

As for the pick themselves, I like all the picks except for the Ridley pick. Solder has the ability to be an elite LT. Dowling is most likely going to replace the overrated Meriweather who is likely to leave in free agency after this season. Vereen is a versatile RB with homerun play capabilties. Mallett was at one point considered the best QB on the board until he scared teams off with questions about his maturity and rumors of drug use. If he can grow up, he could be a replacement for Brady in 3-5 years ala Aaron Rodgers if Brady's skill deteriorate or trade bait down the road. At the very least, the Pats will have arguably the best back up QB in the league and will protect the Pats from a 2008 Brady injury doomsday scenario.

Now if the Pats fill their OLB needs in free agency (possibly Mathias Kiwanuka who is a good two gap pass rusher), then I think this draft filled needs and can be successful. Otherwise, I agree with others they may have squandered opportunities in the draft. Evaluating this draft is harder than most because we don't have the benefits of know how teams filled in holes via free agency. Belichick usually likes to fill the OLB position in free agency over the draft because it can take years for a college DE to make the complete conversion to OLB in the 3-4. If after free agency, the OLBs look the same as last year then Belichick did fail this offseason to improve the pass rush.

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Doggin94it said:

Odd. So why the contrary approach in this post:

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Rob0729 said:

Because I didn't know at the time that last year's trend was a trend. I figured at the time that they went to mostly 4 man fronts because they didn't have the personnel last year not that it was a philosohical change.

The Patriots started day one in a four man front in training camp. At that point, I realized that it wasn't just an one year deal. Also, Belichick explained why he made the change only a few weeks ago on Sirius NFL network.

The fact of the matter is that the Belichick 3-4's biggest strength is stopping the run. Now that this is a pass oriented league, Belichick may be moving away from it. I know the league in general are using sub packages at an exponential rate these days. Sub packages were primarily used for 3rd downs a decade ago. Now teams are using them on first downs a lot.

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Doggin94it said:

Fair enough.

Funny thing is, though, the best passing defenses in the league are mostly 3-4 teams: Pittsburgh, Houston, Baltimore, San Diego, NYJ. Sort it by QB Rating allowed, and the Bills and 49ers jump into the top tier of the league as well.

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Rob0729 said:

Not all 3-4 defenses are the same. The 3-4 defenses that are successful today are primarily one gap, attack style defenses. The Pats run/ran a two gap, read and react style of defense. The only defense I know running that style of defense is the Chiefs right now and they are middle of the pack in terms of opposing QB rating (16th).

Belichick has gotten out of the 3-4 alignment, but hasn't moved from a two gap defense.

BTW, the Pats are ranked higher than the Chargers in terms of opposing QB rating FWIW.

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Rob0729 said:

Not all 3-4 defenses are the same. The 3-4 defenses that are successful today are primarily one gap, attack style defenses. The Pats run/ran a two gap, read and react style of defense. The only defense I know running that style of defense is the Chiefs right now and they are middle of the pack in terms of opposing QB rating (16th).

Belichick has gotten out of the 3-4 alignment, but hasn't moved from a two gap defense.

BTW, the Pats are ranked higher than the Chargers in terms of opposing QB rating FWIW.

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IllegalContact said:

huh??? steelers 2 gap

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Rob0729 said:

The Steelers are the exception, but they make up for it with a lot of blitzing. Hence the name Blitzburgh. They are an attack style defense and not a read and react.

Again, their defense is not like the Pats'.

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