2011 Offseason

Tunescribe · Nov 9, 2011

Rob0729 said:
Several points:

1.) People focus on the negative signing, but don't want to credit the good ones. Guys like Brian Waters, Andre Carter, and Mak Anderson have exceeded expectations.

2.) The lockout has hurt a lot of teams in a rebuilding/reload process. Look at the Dream Team... ummm... Eagles, they are 3-5 right now even though no other team was more active in assembling talent to make a Super Bowl run this year. Other teams in the same boat with high expectations and low results include the Rams, Chargers, and Falcons. This is a freak year because of the lockout.

3.) I think Belichick approached the draft thinking that most rookies won't produce this year. Overall it has been a down year for rookies. Few rookies stand out as special. I think Belichick used this draft as a developmental draft.

4.) As for taking two RBs in the the second and third round, I like that better than taking Mark Ingram in the first like many people wanted. Ingram has yet to stand out and the value of the 28th pick is far more than what they spent on Ridley and Vereen.

5.) Some of the draft picks listed haven't really done much. Cameron Jordan has 22 tackles and 0 sacks. Adrian Clayborn has 15 tackles, 3 sacks, and a forced fumble (decent, but not spectacular). Brooks Reed has 5 tackles and two sacks. Jabaal Sheard has 27 tackles, 2.5 sacks, and two forced fumbles. These guys are not producing at a rate that you think they are going to be anything special as of yet. It is their rookie season so they could break out, but I don't think I look at any of these guys and remotely start another "the Pats could have had Clay Matthews" type of argument.

Excellent, level-headed post. I wish all the Chicken Littles on this board could see it.

Rob0729 · Nov 9, 2011

Darolyn72 said:
You have to excuse Robo, he doesn't watch the games. Jabaal Sheard is considered by many to be a rising star on a team with a good defense and ZERO offense. If he were a Patriot you would be extolling how great he is. Brooks Reed right now is being used as a situational pass rusher on a great defense and he's still better than anyone the Pats have. Mark Anderson has 3 garbage sacks, he barely plays.

And if Belchick thought that the rookies wouldn't have an impact he's stupid. Because Watt, Kerrigan, Fairley, Miller, Dareus, Green, Jones, Sheard, Aldon Smith, Solder are all making impacts.

Hey Robo, where do the Pats go now? They have no pass rusher for next season and will never spend the money to acquire one. Even if Bill finally relents and drafts one, they will be a rookie. Also, Carter is a FA, you going over pay for another guy in a contract year over 32? They have almost no young talent in the front 7.

This organization needs to look itself in the mirror. There 2nd best player Wes Welker...unsigned. He's going to be another guy they drag through the mud for money. If I were him, I would say..CYA. I have just as much a shot at a championship somewhere else as here. The Pats still think they are the model franchise in the NFL. They aren't even the model franchise in their division right now.

Let's see, go play for Bill, get nickled and dimed, live in Foxboro, and don't dare EVER speak your mind. Or go play in New York, spend weekends in NYC, play for a team trending up not down, let's not forget they have gone farther than us the last TWO years, and get to be yourself. Oh, and the Jets spend money. They are not trying to win every negotiation. As I said yesterday Belichick is getting to be like Sinden at the end. Dragging every player through a negotiation. No foresight. Ray Bourque, Cam Neely. They have a value....it should be giving Bruin fans flashbacks. And Sinden was once as good a talent evaluator as anyone in the NHL.

For instance. Gronk is a special player, will the Pats lock him up early. NOPE. How about Mayo, where is his contract? The Pats gripe about Mankins, Samuel, Seymour etc. Well, if you didn't wait until the guy was able to test free agency you wouldn't have to overpay for him. The Pats could have locked Samuel up earlier, Branch earlier, Welker last year. Even Brady when Big Ben signed.

But they won't and that's why they have become fools. Great players like Bruschi, Harrison, Troy Brown are not going to take below market deals anymore. You have 7 years to make money in this league on average. If you play in the Super Bowl every year maybe you concede a little, but when you can't offer that anymore, then its about money.

Sorry Patsfans, this thing is going to hit the iceberg before it gets better.

Maybe they should just cut Gronkowski now. Since he is gone in two years anyway, why bother keeping him?

You have a point that Belichick blew it for not drafting Von Miller. He should have traded the entire draft to get to the number 1 spot to trade ahead of Denver to get Miller. Why do you constantly bring up players that Belichick have absolutely no shot at as if Belichick really whiffed on them. So when the Pats don't draft Andrew Luck in next year's draft, are you going to slam Belichick for not getting him as a replacement for Brady?

Sheard is have a good rookie season, but rising star is a little premature. Being in the Bengals' defense, he is likely to fall off after a while like most of their defensive players over the years.

randomk1 · Nov 9, 2011

Meh..2010 was so promising. You almost felt like a few pieces were missing from a championship team...right now the team feels like a complete mess.

Rob0729 · Nov 9, 2011

Wilfork#75 said:
Isn't this part of the problem. The league has changed, we've got 3 guys on pace to break the single season passing yards record. Its a QB driven league where defences are built on pressure and turnovers, yet we are still trying to use many of the things that we used 7,8,10 years ago because we won Super Bowls with that strategy then. I love BB and there isn't any coach in the NFL I would trade him for, but could it be time for him to adapt. Is it possible that with the current state of the NFL that the two gap system is outdated? Either way I trust that BB will do what is best for this team to win.

The league has changed in how teams win, but teams have proven that not getting the shiny sports car free agents is still successful. The Bears got the prized free agent last year in Julius Peppers and he gave them 8 sacks which was good, but not worth the money. And they made a marquee trade the year before for Jay Cutler who hasn't worked out.

Belichick has had some real misteps in recent years, but people are going overboard with some of the game has changed or passed him by. Look around the league and you can question a lot of moves by teams all over the league this year. No one has looked good other than Green Bay (who have some serious questions on offense and need to score 30 plus points a game to win right now) and San Fran who plays in a division where no one else has more than two wins.

The fact of the matter is the most successful team over the last three to five years adopts a similiar strategy as Belichick. The Steelers do not pick up marquee free agents, when they do go into free agency they tend to go after people's cast offs, and they build through the draft. Granted they have been more successful in the draft in recent years, but their free agent strategy is pretty much the same as Belichick's.

You look at the teams this year that made flash moves and they are struggling. The Dream Team is 3-5. Miami made a big move to get Reggie Bush and he has been a bust for them so far. Arizona made a big deal for Kevin Kolb who has been crappy and leading the Cards to a 2-6 record. Seattle made some big preseason moves like adding Sidney Rice and they are also 2-6. Atlanta made a big move in the draft to get Julio Jones and they have been struggling on offense.

SyN65 · Nov 9, 2011

Meh, there's plenty of rookies producing this season. Not a down year at all, actually there seems to be more rookies producing this year than I have seen the past few years.

Cam Newton/Andy Dalton are playing great. Newton having the best rookie season...ever.

Demarco Murray looks like a future star in the NFL.

Receivers making impacts:

AJ Green
Julio Jones
Torrey Smith

As for defense:

Ryan Kerrigan
Patrick Peterson
Adrian Clayborn
Von Miller
Aldon Smith
Brooks Reed
Marcell Dareus

Obviously a lot are high picks but a lot are performing at a high level considering the lock out and everything. We had the ammo to get any of these guys too. (with the except of maybe people in the top 5..)

SyN65 · Nov 9, 2011

randomk1 said:
Meh..2010 was so promising. You almost felt like a few pieces were missing from a championship team...right now the team feels like a complete mess.

Pretty much. The offense can hold its own but the defense has taken a massive step back from 2011...which I didn't think was possible...

IllegalContact · Nov 9, 2011

Rob0729 said:
When the Pats did the same exact thing in the Super Bowl years, Belichick was a genius. Belichick signed washed up and journeyman players like David Patten, Joe Andruzzi, Roman Phifer, Bobby Hamilton, Anthony Pleasant, Otis Smith, Antowain Smith, etc. because of his ignoring obvious needs in the draft.

You know what? Ted Washington was a last minute replacement for a need that wasn't fulfilled in the draft or free agency. The failure of Belichick to replace that need was blatant too. So should we not give him credit for signing Washington too.

Also, Dowling is not a failure. At least not yet. People are spinning him into a failure, but that is all it is at this point is spin.

People really want to spin the same strategy that Belichick has employed for years as now as some kind of flaw. Belichick employed the same strategy during the Super Bowl years as he does now. His hits and misses aren't as good as then, but the philosophy hasn't changed.

Its not the same.......when did BB pick up compton? when did he pick up washington?? colvin? harrison?.....at what point of the offseason did he pick up all of his players back then? long before training camp, that when....why? because he had a plan.....what's his plan now? change schemes in the middle of training camp? at what point did he realize he was screwed with the 3-4 and needed to chase down carter and anderson? this is nothing new....when did he chase down derrick burgess? the OLB thing has been a long-running practical joke....like I said, the best statistical defense in the NFL right now starts 2 OLB's that plenty of guys here were hoping for in recent drafts (connor barwin and brooks reed)

his habits now are nothing like they used to be.....the only thing in common is that these guys are new to the team....

waters was signed because once koppen went down, he realized his bench sucked.

and yeah, dowling is a bust ........ why? because every guy like him who was drafted and then was injured most of his rookie season fell flat on their face.....tate, mckenzie, crable.......unless you can find me a list of IR'd rookies who went on to do something, he's a bust...the need was obvious, the picks were obvious......just the usual 'in BB we trust' mantra here in that they were not here because they likely didn't fit the scheme.....what scheme???? where's that scheme now?

it seems as though nobody's minding the store anymore.

as for the 2011 offseason, the pats went from being a young team that needed time to a team that looks like it has no future

JackBauer · Nov 9, 2011

SyN65 said:
Demarco Murray looks like a future star in the NFL.

Future star is a bit much, at least for the body of work we've seen so far.

IllegalContact · Nov 9, 2011

JackBauer said:
Future star is a bit much, at least for the body of work we've seen so far.

in comparison to vereen, he's already in the HOF

Rob0729 · Nov 9, 2011

SyN65 said:
Meh, there's plenty of rookies producing this season. Not a down year at all, actually there seems to be more rookies producing this year than I have seen the past few years.

Cam Newton/Andy Dalton are playing great. Newton having the best rookie season...ever.

Demarco Murray looks like a future star in the NFL.

Receivers making impacts:

AJ Green
Julio Jones
Torrey Smith

As for defense:

Ryan Kerrigan
Patrick Peterson
Adrian Clayborn
Von Miller
Aldon Smith
Brooks Reed
Marcell Dareus

Obviously a lot are high picks but a lot are performing at a high level considering the lock out and everything. We had the ammo to get any of these guys too. (with the except of maybe people in the top 5..)

Torrey Smith has been just ok other than one game. He has 397 yards and 4 TDs for the season and 152 yards and 3 TDs came against a bad Rams' defense.

DeMarco Murray has had two great games (one of them near historic though). It is too early to label him a future star just yet.

Aldon Smith and Von Miller were impossible for the Pats to get without giving up the draft and that is too much to risk.

Patrick Peterson is not as good as you think. The Cards pass defense sucks about as bad as the Patriots (they are 29th in the league) and they give up more points (24.3 vs. 23). And the Cards have faced lesser competition. Peterson got all of his pass defenses and INTs vs. four QBs - Eli Manning, Sam Bradford, Joe Flacco, and Tavarus Jackson. Only one of those QBs are having a good year.

JackBauer · Nov 9, 2011

IllegalContact said:
in comparison to vereen, he's already in the HOF

Thanks, that's a useful post.

Rob0729 · Nov 9, 2011

IllegalContact said:
Its not the same.......when did BB pick up compton? when did he pick up washington?? colvin? harrison?.....at what point of the offseason did he pick up all of his players back then? long before training camp, that when....why? because he had a plan.....what's his plan now? change schemes in the middle of training camp? at what point did he realize he was screwed with the 3-4 and needed to chase down carter and anderson? this is nothing new....when did he chase down derrick burgess? the OLB thing has been a long-running practical joke....like I said, the best statistical defense in the NFL right now starts 2 OLB's that plenty of guys here were hoping for in recent drafts (connor barwin and brooks reed)

Not only was training camp over when the Pats traded for Ted Washington, it was after the second preseason game. Brian Waters and Ted Washington are excellent comparisons because both were picked up in the preseason. Also, don't forget Dan Connolley played fairly well starting at RG last year.

his habits now are nothing like they used to be.....the only thing in common is that these guys are new to the team....

waters was signed because once koppen went down, he realized his bench sucked.

And Ted Washington was traded for when Belichick realized he didn't have a starting NT halfway through the preseason while trying to transfer from a 4-3 the previous year to a 3-4 in 2003.

and yeah, dowling is a bust ........ why? because every guy like him who was drafted and then was injured most of his rookie season fell flat on their face.....tate, mckenzie, crable.......unless you can find me a list of IR'd rookies who went on to do something, he's a bust...the need was obvious, the picks were obvious......just the usual 'in BB we trust' mantra here in that they were not here because they likely didn't fit the scheme.....what scheme???? where's that scheme now?

What do past players with injuries during their rookie season have to do with Dowling? No two players are alike. Crable tore two ACLs. All three guys you mentioned were mid to low round picks. Tate was drafted after his ACL tear.

it seems as though nobody's minding the store anymore.

as for the 2011 offseason, the pats went from being a young team that needed time to a team that looks like it has no future

The Pats are 5-3 and tied for first place in the AFC East. If the season ended today, I think they would have the #2 0r #3 seed in the playoffs. Just because you are going off the deep end and really don't know this team very well (as your lack of knowledge of when Ted Washington was traded shows) doesn't change the facts. The Pats are where the Jets were 3 weeks ago and they turned it around.

IllegalContact · Nov 9, 2011

Rob0729 said:
Torrey Smith has been just ok other than one game. He has 397 yards and 4 TDs for the season and 152 yards and 3 TDs came against a bad Rams' defense.

DeMarco Murray has had two great games (one of them near historic though). It is too early to label him a future star just yet.

Aldon Smith and Von Miller were impossible for the Pats to get without giving up the draft and that is too much to risk.

Patrick Peterson is not as good as you think. The Cards pass defense sucks about as bad as the Patriots (they are 29th in the league) and they give up more points (24.3 vs. 23). And the Cards have faced lesser competition. Peterson got all of his pass defenses and INTs vs. four QBs - Eli Manning, Sam Bradford, Joe Flacco, and Tavarus Jackson. Only one of those QBs are having a good year.

muhammad wilkerson
brooks reed

2 guys who would have changed all prospects for the 3-4 for this season......nope.....had to go for 'future value' and 'injury value'

Darolyn72 · Nov 9, 2011

Robo,

Sheard plays for the Browns, not the Bengals. Von Miller is an example of player that's a rookie having a good year, not a player the Patriots should have drafted. You said Belichick expected rookies would struggle.

I am trying to put this in a way that a moderator doesn't warn me. You opinions are lacking basis in fact. Also, I think you need to do some homework on which players are on which teams. Third, I don't know for sure but I don't think you see many other teams play besides the Patriots nor read about players in the league. You really can't just check out their box score every week. Richard Seymour never had more than 6 sacks in a year in college and was one of the most dominant defensive players the Patriots ever had.

Free board, make your points. But if you're going to try to match analysis with me, you need to fact check better. You need to read the prior posts. Or please put me on ignore.

Rob0729 · Nov 9, 2011

Darolyn72 said:
Robo,

Sheard plays for the Browns, not the Bengals. Von Miller is an example of player that's a rookie having a good year, not a player the Patriots should have drafted. You said Belichick expected rookies would struggle.

I am trying to put this in a way that a moderator doesn't warn me. You opinions are lacking basis in fact. Also, I think you need to do some homework on which players are on which teams. Third, I don't know for sure but I don't think you see many other teams play besides the Patriots nor read about players in the league. You really can't just check out their box score every week. Richard Seymour never had more than 6 sacks in a year in college and was one of the most dominant defensive players the Patriots ever had.

Free board, make your points. But if you're going to try to match analysis with me, you need to fact check better. You need to read the prior posts. Or please put me on ignore.

As the board expert in posting posts that aren't dealing with facts, I might have to defer to your expert advise. No one on this board has a higher ratio of incorrect facts per post than you.

I have been trying to match analysis with you, but other than smashing my head with a sledge hammer a few times I don't think I will be an analysis match with you.

Even doomer and gloomers want no part of you and constantly debunk your innacurate comments that have nothing to do with facts. That says something.

BTW, I know that Sheard plays with the Browns, but constantly mistake the two because they both are Ohio teams that usually suck. It was a brief moment of of error unlike most of your posts that are constant moments of errors.

SyN65 · Nov 9, 2011

Rob0729 said:
Torrey Smith has been just ok other than one game. He has 397 yards and 4 TDs for the season and 152 yards and 3 TDs came against a bad Rams' defense.

DeMarco Murray has had two great games (one of them near historic though). It is too early to label him a future star just yet.

Aldon Smith and Von Miller were impossible for the Pats to get without giving up the draft and that is too much to risk.

Patrick Peterson is not as good as you think. The Cards pass defense sucks about as bad as the Patriots (they are 29th in the league) and they give up more points (24.3 vs. 23). And the Cards have faced lesser competition. Peterson got all of his pass defenses and INTs vs. four QBs - Eli Manning, Sam Bradford, Joe Flacco, and Tavarus Jackson. Only one of those QBs are having a good year.

Overall stats aren't as important as impact to me.

Torrey Smith caught the game winning touch down last game against PITT.

Aldon Smith/Von Miller were high picks, yeah.

Murray has been playing great in every game he gets a lot of carries.

Peterson WON two games for the Cardinals with Punt returns for TDs.

IllegalContact · Nov 9, 2011

Rob0729 said:
Not only was training camp over when the Pats traded for Ted Washington, it was after the second preseason game. Brian Waters and Ted Washington are excellent comparisons because both were picked up in the preseason. Also, don't forget Dan Connolley played fairly well starting at RG last year.

And Ted Washington was traded for when Belichick realized he didn't have a starting NT halfway through the preseason while trying to transfer from a 4-3 the previous year to a 3-4 in 2003.

What do past players with injuries during their rookie season have to do with Dowling? No two players are alike. Crable tore two ACLs. All three guys you mentioned were mid to low round picks. Tate was drafted after his ACL tear.

The Pats are 5-3 and tied for first place in the AFC East. If the season ended today, I think they would have the #2 0r #3 seed in the playoffs. Just because you are going off the deep end and really don't know this team very well (as your lack of knowledge of when Ted Washington was traded shows) doesn't change the facts. The Pats are where the Jets were 3 weeks ago and they turned it around.

I'm not going off the deep end....just being realistic about what kind of team the pats are.

you can cling onto ted washingtons nutsack all you like, but overall, I am spot on with the manner in which personnel decisions are made now versus in years past. (BTW, waters was picked up in september.......not a model of good planning)

as for dowling, I repeat.....give me a player who went on to be successful after missing most of their rookie season.....fact is you can't, and even if you come up with one, I will find 10x who did nothing......right now, he's a bust.....

JackBauer · Nov 9, 2011

SyN65 said:
Murray has been playing great in every game he gets a lot of carries.

Which, incidentally I'm sure, were the two games against the Rams and the Seahawks.

Doggin94it · Nov 9, 2011

Rob0729 said:
When the Pats did the same exact thing in the Super Bowl years, Belichick was a genius. Belichick signed washed up and journeyman players like David Patten, Joe Andruzzi, Roman Phifer, Bobby Hamilton, Anthony Pleasant, Otis Smith, Antowain Smith, etc. because of his ignoring obvious needs in the draft.

You know what? Ted Washington was a last minute replacement for a need that wasn't fulfilled in the draft or free agency. The failure of Belichick to replace that need was blatant too. So should we not give him credit for signing Washington too.

Speaking as a Jets fan watching the team from the outside, that's exactly the problem. When the Pats were signing guys like Pleasant, Phifer, Hamilton, Otis Smith, etc. - guys who were average to below average starters - they were signing them to be complementary guys to a defensive core that included Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy (replaced by Harrison), Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrable, a young Ty Warren (in 2003 & forward), a young Vince Wilfork (2004 and forward), a young Asante Samuel (2003 and forward) . . . guys who were anywhere from "above average starter" to "perennial pro bowler"

Now, you're signing the same type of player, but to join a unit that lacks that type of top end talent. Seriously, your defense has only 3 players I'd consider above average starters at their positions - Wilfork, Mayo, and McCourty, though each is significantly more than just "above average". You can get away with "plug the gap, hold the fort" veterans when the players surrounding them are excellent. You cannot do that when the players surrounding them are equally mediocre. A team of average to below average starters will deliver average to below average performance.

That Belichick is taking the same approach to free agency he did in the early 2000s, at a time when the Pats have significantly less talent in-house going into free agency than they did during those years, is an indictment of Belichick as a GM, not a defense.

Rob0729 · Nov 9, 2011

IllegalContact said:
I'm not going off the deep end....just being realistic about what kind of team the pats are.

you can cling onto ted washingtons nutsack all you like, but overall, I am spot on with the manner in which personnel decisions are made now versus in years past. (BTW, waters was picked up in september.......not a model of good planning)

as for dowling, I repeat.....give me a player who went on to be successful after missing most of their rookie season.....fact is you can't, and even if you come up with one, I will find 10x who did nothing......right now, he's a bust.....

So Ted Washington blows your theory out of the water, but you want to ignore it instead of admitting you are wrong. Yes, he was brought in in September (mostly because he wasn't available before then), but that was an excellent job by the Pats to work the waiver wire. It was just dumb luck that Koppen would break his leg in the second game of the season and force the Pats to need him and Connolley to start.

As for the rookie missing an entire season argument, you are grasping. No two injuries are alike. Gronkowski had an excellent 2010 rookie season after missing the entire 2009 season in college. How is that much different than Dowling missing 14 games this season? Because missing an entire season in college is different than missing the rookie year.

The fact the three players you listed were all projects especially Tate and Crable. Crable had too skinny legs for the NFL and never built it up because of back to back ACLs. All three had far worse injuries than what Dowling had (Dowling's doesn't require surgery and the other three had ACL replacements).

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