Personnel Blunders~!

MrNathanDrake said:

Is there any doubt that Brandon Tate would've contributed more as a Kick Returner and 3rd/4th WR than what we have now? (Our returners have been struggling to make it back to the 20 yard line this year)


Is there any doubt that Darius Butler would've contributed more as a 3rd/4th CB than what we have now?


Is there any doubt that Leigh Bodden would've contributed more as a 3rd/4th CB than what we have now?


Last but not least, Is there any doubt that Randy Moss would've contributed more than Ocho Cinco has?

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Is there any doubt that each and every one of the points that have been mentioned have been beaten to death on this board over and over,either singley or collectively.:spygate:

But I won't move this thread to the PS because I move one of the OP's yesterday. Not to say that another moderator can't move it.

Condon, theyy are all homers. The objective fan knows they are indefensivable. And Revis could succeed in this, if you make a comment like that you don't know football. He's the best corner in the NFL in years and the Jets don't have a great pass rush.

Look at who we're starting on defense, yeah I'd say there have been many blunders.

Thank god BB resigned that waste of space Ninkovich, who cant tackle or get after the QB.

Keyser Söze said:

Look at who we're starting on defense, yeah I'd say there have been many blunders.

Thank god BB resigned that waste of space Ninkovich, who cant tackle or get after the QB.

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Proof is in the pudding...

Darolyn72 said:

Condon, theyy are all homers. The objective fan knows they are indefensivable. And Revis could succeed in this, if you make a comment like that you don't know football. He's the best corner in the NFL in years and the Jets don't have a great pass rush.

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It is what it is. What can you really do besides banter back and forth. We are all Pats fans here at the end of the day. We all want them to succeed.

MrNathanDrake said:

Tate had some good returns for us, as well as some long ball catches. He was a threat, which is alot more than what we have this year!

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The romanticized outlook on every departed player - in this case Brandon Tate - is fickle and capricious. The reality is that Tate had 24 receptions in two years. I'm guessing he had five receptions for over twenty yards in that time. Taylor Price and Matt Slater are both faster and better deep threats than Tate; this why Tate is no longer here.

As for returns, yes Tate has obviously done a better job than anyone on the Pats this year in the somewhat small sample size of seven games. But do you recall how he did aside from the week one and week four returns for touchdowns? I remember so many returns that barely got out to the twenty after those games that most here were questioning why the Pats continued to have him return kicks.

Relatively speaking the Patriots starting field position is actually well above the league average this season. I think what you are doing is comparing this year's kick returns to previous year's kick returns, which is comparing apples to oranges due to the change in rules regarding kickoffs.

Hindsight is wonderfully easy, but did you or anyone else screaming about these personnel blunders say the Patriots were wrong to cut Tate at the time that decision was made?

The majority of this board had been wanting the Pats to add Ochocinco, and to also cut Tate for the last two years. To complain about these personnel decisions now is rather disingenuous.

Darolyn72 said:

Condon, theyy are all homers. The objective fan knows they are indefensivable. And Revis could succeed in this, if you make a comment like that you don't know football. He's the best corner in the NFL in years and the Jets don't have a great pass rush.

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When you call me a homer, you make yourself look like a clown.

FreeTedWilliams said:

In all honesty how can you spend two #1 (McCourtey, Merriweather), the first two picks in the second round: (33) Ras-I Made of Glass (34) Chung, a few more 2nds (Butler, Wheatley), a FA Bodden, and a boat load of other picks and only come away with two starters, and the rest are not on the team and you have undrafted free agents starting at the other two positions!!

Nobody can defend these personell moves.

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Exactly.

and I'm sorry, but Tate brings another dimension to the WR`s while Edelman is just a Welker wannabe

MrNathanDrake said:

Exactly.

and I'm sorry, but Tate brings another dimension to the WR`s ...

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No, he didn't.

A few things:

1.) I can't believe we are still debating Randy Moss. He was cut because he wasn't performing and his attitude sucked (he supposably got into a shouting match with Bill O'Brien at halftime of the Miami game and Brady reportedly lost faith in him). He isn't sitting at home right now because teams think he is too good for their team. The Pats let him go at the right time and got far more than they probably should have for him. If the Pats brought him back, people would be saying in three weeks how could they bring back Moss when TO was available.

2.) I preferred Tate over Edelman in the preseason, but let's not go overboard. Even with Tate's 56 yard TD return on Sunday, he is only averaging 12.3 yards a punt return which is above average but not spectacular especially if you take out his performance on Sunday. As far as kick return average, he is middle of the pack. Edelman provided about the same amount of production here although he obviously has fallen out of favor for some reason. At this point, neither guy brings anything to the offense.

3.) If people think this defense would be significantly better with Darius Butler on it, you are kidding yourself.

I used to think you were a poser,Rob...I thought "what kind of real Patriot fan posts at a site like J.I.?"...I was wrong...you consistently provide a rational, balanced opinion....I appreciate your slants on Patriots topics very much.

MrNathanDrake said:

Is there any doubt that Brandon Tate would've contributed more as a Kick Returner and 3rd/4th WR than what we have now? (Our returners have been struggling to make it back to the 20 yard line this year)

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Maybe, but field possition isn't a big problem for the Patriots because the offense can take on most of this league's teams. And the team has good punt returners.

MrNathanDrake said:

Is there any doubt that Darius Butler would've contributed more as a 3rd/4th CB than what we have now?

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No, not really. More of the same. Only more expensive. This, however, is one of BB's mistakes in believing he's the Warren Buffett of NFL Drafts: he was selected with the GB's 2nd-round pick they got, in part, for exchanging their 1st-round pick (26th, with which the Packers drafted Clay Matthews), which in turn was the 1st-round pick the Ravens traded them for their original 1st-rounder (23rd, used on Oher), letting Miami take Vontae Davis with the 25th. There the Patriots lost the chance of picking a good pass-rusher or a good cornerback.

Both Davis and Butler came in with red flags because of their personality and work ethics, but Davis had the raw talent and size, while Butler was also critizised because he was short and hadn't played great competition, having played for UConn.

MrNathanDrake said:

Is there any doubt that Leigh Bodden would've contributed more as a 3rd/4th CB than what we have now?

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Perhaps, but he wasn't exactly having a great year neither, and also was more expensive than the players we have now at that possition.

MrNathanDrake said:

Last but not least, Is there any doubt that Randy Moss would've contributed more than Ocho Cinco has?

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No, Moss was a slouch. OC is a slouch as well, I don't know why BB picked him up other than being friends with him. The truth is Moss excelled at the long routes, seams, 9s, etc., had lost a step there but he could still be dangerous. The problems is that Brady isn't very good at the long passes, so he would go on to be wasted. And when he isn't a feature WR, he loses interest and plays poorly.


I think the major problem comes from BB thinking he can break the bank with his adquisitions, both in the draft and FA. I think the draft blunders have been thoroughly discussed here and everywhere, but no the FA mistakes. Letting Merriweather go just a few days before the start of the season was a huge brain-fart. He may not have been the exemplary safety, but he was nontheless quite a capable safety. The Pats didn't have a good or average safety other than him and maybe Chung (who is undersized and hadn't had so much experience as a starter there). Basically, he let the team without reliable safeties, and that opened up a whole new level of problems for the secondary, aside from having no help from the LBs. Not picking up other free agents with better acolades than these scout-team rejects they have is a big problem, because they don't have the good, savvy veterans to help the young, and you can't rely on the young to pick up the NFL so quickly. So it becomes a sort of catch-22 that spirals down to where they are now.

In 2008, could have picked up Gibril Wilson, Erik Coleman, trade for Leonhard.
In 2009, Sean Jones, Wilson again, Darren Sharper, Jim Leonhard for free, trade for Dawan Laundry.
In 2010, Atogwe, Antrel Rolle, Ryan Clark...

There's a lot of cap space that was used for a lot of washed-up players given a last chance by BB: Fred Taylor, Torry Holt, Joey Galloway, Haynesworth, Ocho Cinco...

Time to behave like a normal NFL franchise, if you ask me. Make the sensible decision, not the maverick one.

JJDChE said:

You're a few years off there, Chachi.


...an I'd hardly call any of those blunders. I don't know what happened with Bodden, but the rest of them were no-brainers. Moss shot his way out of town ferchrissakes.

This place is unbearable after a loss. Jesus. This is ridiculous.

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Really...what'll they all do after losses 3,4, and 5 ?

Better hide the tar and feathers.

This team is on pace to have both the best offense and worst defense in the entire history of the NFL.

There's a certain sweet symmetry to that.

Who knows, maybe it was one of BB's career goals. He's already set all kinds of records , why not that one ?

Relax everyone, it's only a game...JEEZ !

In 2008, could have picked up Gibril Wilson, Erik Coleman, trade for Leonhard.
In 2009, Sean Jones, Wilson again, Darren Sharper, Jim Leonhard for free, trade for Dawan Laundry.
In 2010, Atogwe, Antrel Rolle, Ryan Clark...

There's a lot of cap space that was used for a lot of washed-up players given a last chance by BB: Fred Taylor, Torry Holt, Joey Galloway, Haynesworth, Ocho Cinco...

Time to behave like a normal NFL franchise, if you ask me. Make the sensible decision, not the maverick one.

I'm guessing you mean Dawan Landry...you wanted BB to TRADE for Dawan Landry?? Trade what? Why would the Ravens have done that? Preposterous.

Jim Leonhard???????? He's a JAG....THE weak link in the Jets secondary...you bring him up..and then bring him up again..like you're fixated on Jim Leonhard...myself, I would NEVER want a Jim Leonhard type signed to big free agent money on this team.

Darren Sharper is STILL out of the NFL. Jeezus....

You make this outlandish assertion that a "lot of cap space" was wasted on Holt and Galloway..Galloway's contract was for 1.15 million...Holt signed for 1.7 mil BUT was released in training camp with a far lower injury settlement.

7 games in and YOU have determined Haynesworth and Ocho are washed up.While this could be true, it's also obvious you are using hindsight to make THIS claim.I'll let the season play out before I throw any players under the bus.

You want the Patriots to behave like a "normal NFL franchise"...exactly what is the norm? An 8-8 record? The past decade has been equaled by HOW MANY NFL franchises??????

Joker said:

I used to think you were a poser,Rob...I thought "what kind of real Patriot fan posts at a site like J.I.?"...I was wrong...you consistently provide a rational, balanced opinion....I appreciate your slants on Patriots topics very much.

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Yeah, but one man's rational, balanced opinion is another man's blind, homerific rant. I am sure most of the doom and gloomers and contrarians on this board think my posts are the latter.

The Salary Cap, the call of the Desperate Patriot fan.

Three Patriots make big money. Tom, Vince, and Mankins.

Meanwhile the Eagles, found a way to sign Asomougha, Babin, Jenkins, Vick, and they already have Jackson, Rodgers-Cromartie and Samuel at pretty big money.

Jets are 10 mill under the cap and have Revis, Harris, Ferguson, Pace, Cromartie, Holmes, Mangold.

The Salary cap since about 2004 is easy to maneuver around. And its going up in 2013 after the 2012 contracts are sure to bring in MORE revenue for the league.

Of course, the Pats continue to wait to the last minute on every good player they have, and that's saying something because they have like 6 and 5 of them are on offense.

Joker said:

In 2008, could have picked up Gibril Wilson, Erik Coleman, trade for Leonhard.
In 2009, Sean Jones, Wilson again, Darren Sharper, Jim Leonhard for free, trade for Dawan Laundry.
In 2010, Atogwe, Antrel Rolle, Ryan Clark...

There's a lot of cap space that was used for a lot of washed-up players given a last chance by BB: Fred Taylor, Torry Holt, Joey Galloway, Haynesworth, Ocho Cinco...

Time to behave like a normal NFL franchise, if you ask me. Make the sensible decision, not the maverick one.

I'm guessing you mean Dawan Landry...you wanted BB to TRADE for Dawan Landry?? Trade what? Why would the Ravens have done that? Preposterous.

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Picks. BB likes to stock up picks? Send a second and a third rounder for him. Or he could have picked him up this season.

Joker said:

Jim Leonhard???????? He's a JAG....THE weak link in the Jets secondary...you bring him up..and then bring him up again..like you're fixated on Jim Leonhard...myself, I would NEVER want a Jim Leonhard type signed to big free agent money on this team.

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First: he's a key piece of the Jets defense. A great tackler (much better than any safety the Patriots had during that time he was a FA), both near the line of scrimmage and the open field. Second, why would he sign for big money? He signed with the Jets for 3 years and $5 million, hardly big money. That's the same amount of money that the Patriots payed Fred Taylor for 106 carries over 2 years.

Joker said:

Darren Sharper is STILL out of the NFL. Jeezus....

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If we were talking about FA moves during the 90s, would you complain that GB picking Reggie White was a stupid move because he's now dead? Same logic you used there. When he was available, he was picked by the Saints and had a career year with them, leading the defense, 71 TKL 15 PD 9 INT for 376 YDS and 3 TDs. He then had his final injury and was out of the league. But you can't assume he would have injured himself so badly with the Pats (and don't say "you can't assume he would have that performance neither", because if you check his stats, it is more than consistent with the previous 5 years with MIN).

You make this outlandish assertion that a "lot of cap space" was wasted on Holt and Galloway..Galloway's contract was for 1.15 million...Holt signed for 1.7 mil BUT was released in training camp with a far lower injury settlement.

Joker said:

7 games in and YOU have determined Haynesworth and Ocho are washed up.While this could be true, it's also obvious you are using hindsight to make THIS claim.I'll let the season play out before I throw any players under the bus.

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I don't say they are washed up because of this season. They have been washed up for the last two years. Their contributions for the team are and WILL be minimal. Haynesworth is a situational pass-rusher, injury prone blob that has yet to show any significant stat. He won't just start making plays in the middle of the season (again, think Torry Holt, Fred Taylor, etc.). Meanwhile, OchoCinco's signing was unnecessary: Brady hardly looks in his direction. He doesn't impose any kind of respect from opposite defenses any more. He's just here maybe to win a ring as a replacement WR. I don't need to let the season play out because this has been the behaviour these players have had for the last 3 years, and I can't expect anything but the same thing with the same results so far.

Joker said:

You want the Patriots to behave like a "normal NFL franchise"...exactly what is the norm? An 8-8 record? The past decade has been equaled by HOW MANY NFL franchises??????

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A franchise that uses their 1st round picks to get the REAL talent, and not the hidden, nobody-could-see-it-but-me players from California of Pennsyvania BB likes to pick by trading his firsts for 200 7th rounders (I exagerate, but you get the point). I want a franchise that commits to get quality players no matter the cost, within reasonable doubt, and doesn't shy away from them because "they aren't a steal". I want a franchise that has a HC, a DC and an OC, not a Lord of the Mannor. That I want.

This isn't just one defeat. This is last year, minus the turnovers. Check Bill Barnwell, check AdvanceFootballStats, check Football Outsiders' DVOA: this has been the trend since 2006. You can only see it now because the offense was stopped, turned the ball over a lot in one game, the defense can't produce any more turnovers and they are facing decent passing games. Next week, it's the Giants. Then the Eagles and finally the Bills. Those are the only decent passing attacks the Patriots will face from now on. Maybe the defense's stats will improve and you'll think this was just a one-game fluke. It wasn't. The Pats are the reason Mark Sanchez stats are still within NFL-quality levels. Eventually, when they will be needed, if they make the playoffs, they will crack and lose the game for the rest.

That's why we care about this.

Belichick's Midget Army said:

Picks. BB likes to stock up picks? Send a second and a third rounder for him. Or he could have picked him up this season.



First: he's a key piece of the Jets defense. A great tackler (much better than any safety the Patriots had during that time he was a FA), both near the line of scrimmage and the open field. Second, why would he sign for big money? He signed with the Jets for 3 years and $5 million, hardly big money. That's the same amount of money that the Patriots payed Fred Taylor for 106 carries over 2 years.



If we were talking about FA moves during the 90s, would you complain that GB picking Reggie White was a stupid move because he's now dead? Same logic you used there. When he was available, he was picked by the Saints and had a career year with them, leading the defense, 71 TKL 15 PD 9 INT for 376 YDS and 3 TDs. He then had his final injury and was out of the league. But you can't assume he would have injured himself so badly with the Pats (and don't say "you can't assume he would have that performance neither", because if you check his stats, it is more than consistent with the previous 5 years with MIN).

You make this outlandish assertion that a "lot of cap space" was wasted on Holt and Galloway..Galloway's contract was for 1.15 million...Holt signed for 1.7 mil BUT was released in training camp with a far lower injury settlement.



I don't say they are washed up because of this season. They have been washed up for the last two years. Their contributions for the team are and WILL be minimal. Haynesworth is a situational pass-rusher, injury prone blob that has yet to show any significant stat. He won't just start making plays in the middle of the season (again, think Torry Holt, Fred Taylor, etc.). Meanwhile, OchoCinco's signing was unnecessary: Brady hardly looks in his direction. He doesn't impose any kind of respect from opposite defenses any more. He's just here maybe to win a ring as a replacement WR. I don't need to let the season play out because this has been the behaviour these players have had for the last 3 years, and I can't expect anything but the same thing with the same results so far.



A franchise that uses their 1st round picks to get the REAL talent, and not the hidden, nobody-could-see-it-but-me players from California of Pennsyvania BB likes to pick by trading his firsts for 200 7th rounders (I exagerate, but you get the point). I want a franchise that commits to get quality players no matter the cost, within reasonable doubt, and doesn't shy away from them because "they aren't a steal". I want a franchise that has a HC, a DC and an OC, not a Lord of the Mannor. That I want.

This isn't just one defeat. This is last year, minus the turnovers. Check Bill Barnwell, check AdvanceFootballStats, check Football Outsiders' DVOA: this has been the trend since 2006. You can only see it now because the offense was stopped, turned the ball over a lot in one game, the defense can't produce any more turnovers and they are facing decent passing games. Next week, it's the Giants. Then the Eagles and finally the Bills. Those are the only decent passing attacks the Patriots will face from now on. Maybe the defense's stats will improve and you'll think this was just a one-game fluke. It wasn't. The Pats are the reason Mark Sanchez stats are still within NFL-quality levels. Eventually, when they will be needed, if they make the playoffs, they will crack and lose the game for the rest.

That's why we care about this.

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What you want is a franchise that overspends on a few players and loses.

One thing to take into account is that this year we didnt lose a DB in camp to injury. I think thats the first time ever for a BB team. I think the cuts overshadowed this fact. It would be easy to say we should have kept Butler if Dowling went down in camp right??

This isn't just one defeat. This is last year, minus the turnovers. Check Bill Barnwell, check AdvanceFootballStats, check Football Outsiders' DVOA: this has been the trend since 2006. You can only see it now because the offense was stopped, turned the ball over a lot in one game, the defense can't produce any more turnovers and they are facing decent passing games. Next week, it's the Giants. Then the Eagles and finally the Bills. Those are the only decent passing attacks the Patriots will face from now on. Maybe the defense's stats will improve and you'll think this was just a one-game fluke. It wasn't. The Pats are the reason Mark Sanchez stats are still within NFL-quality levels. Eventually, when they will be needed, if they make the playoffs, they will crack and lose the game for the rest.

That's why we care about this.

Check that...that's why YOU care about any of this...Bill Barnwell has coached and won what exactly? He's a former shill for Football Outsiders, not exactly the paradigm for correct, unbiased football analysis. You talk about a trend since 2006, I assume because of some mythical dire collapse YOU see coming...2007 the Patriots went 18-1...last season 15-3, 11-5 with a backup QB in between. What you are so focused on is this statistically better defense, but at what cost? Then you follow all this up with this out of nowhere, wacked "The Pats are the reason Mark Sanchez stats are still within NFL-quality levels." Sanchez was 16-26, 158 yards. The Jets LOST. Are you mistaking the Pats for the Jags??? Something is wrong with the way your brain is wired.

One more thing, "Belicheck's MIDGET Army" means exactly what? Comes across as if you are taking a swipe at any/all Patriot fans who seem to think Belichick is a good coach.