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The Ultimate Brady vs. Ben Thread. Pittsburgh Troll Thinks They ARE in the same class


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All Steeler fans know that Tom Brady is Mr. Regular season since 2004 and spygate. Yes he puts up great Regular season numbers but dissappears in the first round. Losses to inferior teams like Denver, Baltimore and the Jets. If it was'nt for his good looks he would be just another very good QB.

How come the Media doesn't rip your prettyboy Qb after these playoff failures??

LOL! I love this argument. So if you have a great game against a team that ends up going to the playoffs during the regular season, it doesn't count. So if the Pats put up 45 points on the Jets during the season last year it doesn't count because he only put 299 yards vs. the Jets in the playoffs. And the Pats going to the Super Bowl in the 2007 season AFTER Spygate and the 2004 season doesn't count either. Or that the Pats were in the AFC Championship game in the 2006 season AFTER 2004 doesn't count either.

It would make sense that all Steeler fans would know this considering if the Steeler fans visiting this board is any indication of what Steelers fans are like everywhere, they clearly aren't very bright.
 
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Ben is NOT Tier 1


Ben and Rivers get their OWN group ( call it 1.5) Better than all 2's not good enough to be a Brady, Rodgers,Brees or Peyton. Ryan will be here in maybe 2 years, but Rivers and Ben have been ROCK STEADY in this Class for MANY Years. (Ben kills Rivers in this race, but when the REAL Rivers is around it is a very nice match up)
Ben is winning the 1.5 race

Ben is NOT ELITE Pitt fans your schedule is easy (relatively speaking) Ben #'s are a matter of who he has played against this year (not many impressive teams) or Defenses for that matter.


How many FANTASY yards will Ben Rack up when it becomes a NO contest? Let us look at last yrs game and how much PHONY Garbage time yards he racked up.

Ben could have a field day against our D (no doubt b/c we make JAG QB's look great) just remember we will SCORCH your Defense w/ our Weapons. We will Win another match against Pitt and on Sunday may your blood taint the way to our continued successful FUTURE of WINNING vs. the Steeler's and we will notch another W in this game and become 6-1 on the season.
 
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All Steeler fans know that Tom Brady is Mr. Regular season since 2004 and spygate. Yes he puts up great Regular season numbers but dissappears in the first round. Losses to inferior teams like Denver, Baltimore and the Jets. If it was'nt for his good looks he would be just another very good QB.

How come the Media doesn't rip your prettyboy Qb after these playoff failures??

Spygate? Everyone else was doing it, just from a different place. Steroidgate, actually was much worse because not every team was doing steroids in the 1970's. The Steelers started that trend.

Before you write this off as an assault on the Steelers moment of glory, Steve Courson and a couple other Steelers OL's of that era, freely admits to it.
 
Ben is very good. Although people argue that the Steelers are stacked on defense and at the skill positions, look at where that gets the Ravens.

Brady is a once-in-a-lifetime player. The only other quarterback who should be mentioned along with Brady over his career is Peyton Manning.

That said, Ben has big flaws. He is not very bright and doesn't study the game like he should. He could have been one of the greatest ever, but pure talent does not get you to the very top. He struggles to read defenses because he doesn't have the same work ethic as a Brady or Manning. Although Ben's number stack up very well of other Hall of Fame quarterbacks, this is a different era. I think the standard of quarterbacking, in terms of production and precision has changed. I don't think Ben is a Hall of Famer right now because of his horrendous Super Bowl play (besides one drive) and the fact that he isn't in the top 5 QBs of his generation. Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers. Ben will never, at any point in his career, be seriously considered as the top quarterback, or a top three quarterback, in the league. That's not HOF material to me.
 
Spygate? Everyone else was doing it, just from a different place. Steroidgate, actually was much worse because not every team was doing steroids in the 1970's. The Steelers started that trend.

Before you write this off as an assault on the Steelers moment of glory, Steve Courson and a couple other Steelers OL's of that era, freely admits to it.

Don't bother arguing. This is just another incarnation of whiny fans that complained pre-2007 about the tuck rule, "only winning by 3 points," Adam Vinatieri "bailing out" Brady, etc. I'm sure that after the hugely overblown SpyGate broke out, all of these haters were licking their chops to see Brady go down in flames. And had the Pats won in '07, they would have whined that SpyGate happened that season and shouldn't count. Had they won last year, it would have been another excuse as to why our success is tainted.

All I know is this: the Steelers are the last team that should be whining. In addition to Steroidgate, an official actually admitted to openly calling a Super Bowl in their favor. They won that game against Seattle despite being completely outgained and outplayed. Say what you want about a "potential" scandal in SpyGate, which has been shot down by almost every coach, including Bill Cowher, but I've never heard of such a sham as a ref admitting to handing a team a ring like in 2005.
 
Finally things are heating up a bit here. Here are some important points that need to be made.

First, sticking with the most recent discussion of "what if's" in the Super Bowls, what if Rashard Mendenhall doesn't fumble on the would-be go ahead drive in the 4th quarter of last year's SB? True, Ben started off slowly and they fell behind 21-3. But early in the fourth, he had brought them back to the point of being on the verse of taking the lead. *If* Mendenhall doesn't fumble there, *perhaps* we are talking about Ben and Brady being neck and neck in terms of Super Bowl rings, and we are also crediting Ben with the greatest point deficit comeback in Super Bowl history.

As for those discussing SB MVP awards - Ben could have just as easily taken the SB 43 MVP and in fact did garner some votes for it, but it went to Holmes.

Something else I'd like to point out - Brady is 4-1 against Ben in their head to head matchups. In the very first, Ben outplayed Brady and the Steelers won. Later that year in the playoffs, the Pats won with Ben getting off to a shaky start due to some rookie jitters. But does anybody remember that he recovered and nearly led the Steelers back to tie that game? It got close for while.

Likewise, does anybody remember the regular season matchup the year after that? The Steelers were actually in position to win that game late. Ben had just completed a long pass to Antwaan Randle El deep in NE territory with a few minutes to go which would have almost certainly given Pit the game, but ARE tried an ill-advise lateral to Hines Ward which was recovered by the Pat, who marched down the field and put Vinatieri in a position to kick a game winning field goal with no time left. *If* not for that bonehead play by ARE, we are talking about a 3-2 edge for Brady in the head to head matcups, with a chance for Ben to even it up this Sunday.

My point being, overall Brady hasn't been quite as "dominant" over Ben as many like to believe.

Also, pertaining to people saying this is "trolling," I'm not sure how that conclusion is reached. I am not posting repetitive, troublesome arguments all over the place. I'm simply giving facts and figures that lead to an opinion of Ben Roethlisberger being in the same class as Tom Brady. I have never said Ben is better. I admit Brady is the best. I am simply saying Ben is in his class. To give an analogy - it's similar to how Lemieux is the best, and Orr is not quite on his level, but still in the same class.


Ahhhh NO

I was at the Sep 2005 game.

It was the most dominating performance of the set. The Steelers were extremely fortunate to have the Pats foolishly turn the ball over.

The Stealers tied it late based on a complete gift PI call on Chad Scott.

Save for a few stupid turnovers and bogus calls, that game wasn't 4 TD close.
 
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Trollboy, if we're going to do what ifs...I got a game in February 2008 that Brady should have won with a TD...

Well that's my point. "What if's" are a slippery slope. The bottom line is right now Brady is 3/4 and Ben is 2/3 in SB's. Brady has 3 solid showings in his wins while Ben had a bad performance in a win and also has one of the all time historic winning drives in a SB.

And I don't think "Trollboy" is appropriate. This place still wishes me a happy birthday every year even though I only show up here once every couple years or so. Why would I want to troll it???
 
Don't bother arguing. This is just another incarnation of whiny fans that complained pre-2007 about the tuck rule, "only winning by 3 points," Adam Vinatieri "bailing out" Brady, etc. I'm sure that after the hugely overblown SpyGate broke out, all of these haters were licking their chops to see Brady go down in flames. And had the Pats won in '07, they would have whined that SpyGate happened that season and shouldn't count. Had they won last year, it would have been another excuse as to why our success is tainted.

All I know is this: the Steelers are the last team that should be whining. In addition to Steroidgate, an official actually admitted to openly calling a Super Bowl in their favor. They won that game against Seattle despite being completely outgained and outplayed. Say what you want about a "potential" scandal in SpyGate, which has been shot down by almost every coach, including Bill Cowher, but I've never heard of such a sham as a ref admitting to handing a team a ring like in 2005.

Other areas, Stealer fans don't acknowledge:

Illegally freezing the field against Oakland in one of the 70's AFCCG

The Bogus Renfro call in another AFCCG

The bogus PI call against the Cowboys in the SB.
 
Something else I'd like to point out - Brady is 4-1 against Ben in their head to head matchups. In the very first, Ben outplayed Brady and the Steelers won. Later that year in the playoffs, the Pats won with Ben getting off to a shaky start due to some rookie jitters. But does anybody remember that he recovered and nearly led the Steelers back to tie that game? It got close for while.
Ask yourself this: if everything you just said above was reversed between the two players - that is, if Ben was up 4-1 in head to head play, and one of the losses Brady 'nearly led the team back' - would you be saying the same thing?

Not sure why you would say Ben 'nearly led the Steelers back to tie that game' when the closet they ever got after the second quarter was 11 points behind.

One other question: why the excuse of "rookie jitters"? If that was the case wouldn't that have happened in his first game, not his 15th?


Likewise, does anybody remember the regular season matchup the year after that? The Steelers were actually in position to win that game late. Ben had just completed a long pass to Antwaan Randle El deep in NE territory with a few minutes to go which would have almost certainly given Pit the game, but ARE tried an ill-advise lateral to Hines Ward which was recovered by the Pat, who marched down the field and put Vinatieri in a position to kick a game winning field goal with no time left. *If* not for that bonehead play by ARE, we are talking about a 3-2 edge for Brady in the head to head matcups, with a chance for Ben to even it up this Sunday.
I can play the 'what if' game too. In that one Steelers win the Patriots game plan was to pound the rock with Corey Dillon; problem was that during warmups he had a hamstring and couldn't go - way too late for the team to install an entirely different game plan. Then on the first series Ty Law is lost for the rest of the game. So what if both Dillon and Law had been healthy for that game?

To give an analogy - it's similar to how Lemieux is the best, and Orr is not quite on his level, but still in the same class.
That analogy pretty much sums up why your opinions are difficult to buy into. Perhaps that's what everyone within fifty miles of Pittsburgh believes, but it's literally the first time that I have ever seen anybody say that Lemieux is the best hockey player ever, or was better than Orr.
 
Ben is very good. Although people argue that the Steelers are stacked on defense and at the skill positions, look at where that gets the Ravens.

Brady is a once-in-a-lifetime player. The only other quarterback who should be mentioned along with Brady over his career is Peyton Manning.

That said, Ben has big flaws. He is not very bright and doesn't study the game like he should. He could have been one of the greatest ever, but pure talent does not get you to the very top. He struggles to read defenses because he doesn't have the same work ethic as a Brady or Manning. Although Ben's number stack up very well of other Hall of Fame quarterbacks, this is a different era. I think the standard of quarterbacking, in terms of production and precision has changed. I don't think Ben is a Hall of Famer right now because of his horrendous Super Bowl play (besides one drive) and the fact that he isn't in the top 5 QBs of his generation. Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers. Ben will never, at any point in his career, be seriously considered as the top quarterback, or a top three quarterback, in the league. That's not HOF material to me.

It baffles me that people still put Rivers in that group at the expense of Ben. What has Rivers ever done to deserve to be mentioned with those other guys? (Other than give wet dreams to fantasy owners)

I agree more with SolderKing, that Rivers is a long way from Ben. But I feel Ben deserves to be classified with Brady, Manning, Rogers, and Brees. All legitimate Super Bowl, HOF caliber QB's. Of the recent SB winners, only Eli is the one who somehow found the needle in the haystack.
 
It baffles me that people still put Rivers in that group at the expense of Ben. What has Rivers ever done to deserve to be mentioned with those other guys? (Other than give wet dreams to fantasy owners)

I agree more with SolderKing, that Rivers is a long way from Ben. But I feel Ben deserves to be classified with Brady, Manning, Rogers, and Brees. All legitimate Super Bowl, HOF caliber QB's. Of the recent SB winners, only Eli is the one who somehow found the needle in the haystack.


I agree with you...as an outsider looking in, I think a lot of the animus towards Big Ben is related to off the field stuff. He has manned the QB position on two Super Bowl winning squads last decade and he's been a winner almost every season he's played. I don't get the Rivers comparison at all. I have it Rogers,Brady,Brees, Manning,the Berger...going forward a few seasons one could say that top five will be open to discussion...Manning is a very large question mark...Brady is 34, Brees 32.....I can envision a time when Rodgers and Roth are joined by a few of these young lions that just entered the league, especially the kid in Carolina.
 
The difference between a future Hall of Famer and occasional Pro Bowler:

Brady: Bangs, dates, marries supermodels and actresses.
Roethlisberger: Forces himself upon college town skeezers.
 
Trollboy, if we're going to do what ifs...I got a game in February 2008 that Brady should have won with a TD...

Let's just come out and say it - the Patriots are some outlandishly freaky Manning-centric events away from having 5 rings. It's unfortunate.

It's why, despite our overwhelming success and true embarrassment of riches in this Brady-Belichick era, we remain a somewhat bitter group and will likely remain that way until if and when the team wins another title under this regime - and the taste of the back-to-back heart-wrenching, logic-defying, mind-numbing events that occurred in January 2007 & February 2008 are washed away.

If not for a brutal combination of horrible officiating, poorly timed injuries, sickness, bad luck & impressive clutchness from opponents, yes - Brady would almost assuredly have 5 SB titles right now.

I'm sure this fact pisses him off more than it does you or me - so, I'm sure he's working on fixing the issue.

The point is - fans from other teams need not play the "what if" game. Due to the nature in which the aforementioned losses occurred, the Patriot fans will win those what if games everytime.
 
Finally things are heating up a bit here. Here are some important points that need to be made.

First, sticking with the most recent discussion of "what if's" in the Super Bowls, what if Rashard Mendenhall doesn't fumble on the would-be go ahead drive in the 4th quarter of last year's SB? True, Ben started off slowly and they fell behind 21-3. But early in the fourth, he had brought them back to the point of being on the verse of taking the lead. *If* Mendenhall doesn't fumble there, *perhaps* we are talking about Ben and Brady being neck and neck in terms of Super Bowl rings, and we are also crediting Ben with the greatest point deficit comeback in Super Bowl history.

As for those discussing SB MVP awards - Ben could have just as easily taken the SB 43 MVP and in fact did garner some votes for it, but it went to Holmes.

Something else I'd like to point out - Brady is 4-1 against Ben in their head to head matchups. In the very first, Ben outplayed Brady and the Steelers won. Later that year in the playoffs, the Pats won with Ben getting off to a shaky start due to some rookie jitters. But does anybody remember that he recovered and nearly led the Steelers back to tie that game? It got close for while.

Likewise, does anybody remember the regular season matchup the year after that? The Steelers were actually in position to win that game late. Ben had just completed a long pass to Antwaan Randle El deep in NE territory with a few minutes to go which would have almost certainly given Pit the game, but ARE tried an ill-advise lateral to Hines Ward which was recovered by the Pat, who marched down the field and put Vinatieri in a position to kick a game winning field goal with no time left. *If* not for that bonehead play by ARE, we are talking about a 3-2 edge for Brady in the head to head matcups, with a chance for Ben to even it up this Sunday.

My point being, overall Brady hasn't been quite as "dominant" over Ben as many like to believe.

Also, pertaining to people saying this is "trolling," I'm not sure how that conclusion is reached. I am not posting repetitive, troublesome arguments all over the place. I'm simply giving facts and figures that lead to an opinion of Ben Roethlisberger being in the same class as Tom Brady. I have never said Ben is better. I admit Brady is the best. I am simply saying Ben is in his class. To give an analogy - it's similar to how Lemieux is the best, and Orr is not quite on his level, but still in the same class.

Mario Lemieux isn't worthy to carry Bobby Orrs equipment into the damn rink. A better player? Are you kidding me? If Orr had a normal career he would have every offensive record in the books, as a defenseman. Lemieuxs career of course hit some bumps and he was an all time great but Orr is THE all time great. So to summarize:

Orr > Lemiuex
Brady > Roethlisberger
 
If it wasn't for some bad officiating and a few blown plays by the Patriots defense against the Giants, Brady goes from 3 Super Bowls to 4 just as quickly.





Seriously, your trolling sucks. Try finding some material we haven't already seen hundreds of times.

If it wasn't for bad officiating and blown defense Brady probably goes from 3-5 and is the greatest of all time, without question. 2006 stings just as much as 2007.
 
One thing I forgot to mention which which Felger just brought up on 98.5, for all this talk about blueprints to stop Brady there is an easier blueprint to stop Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger loves to scramble to his right. You keep him in the pocket and he becomes ordinary. The Pats have successfully used this blueprint to shut him down repeatedly over the years including last year (and don't talk about the garbage time yards and three garbage time TDs he got last season vs. the Pats).
 
If it wasn't for bad officiating and blown defense Brady probably goes from 3-5 and is the greatest of all time, without question. 2006 stings just as much as 2007.

I agree, but I was dealing with a Steelers troll who probably is ignorant of what happened in the 2006 AFCCG.
 
Is this a troll thread? Ben is a game manager who can easily be replaced.

Oh he has a better postseason record? Ben has never made it there without a top 3 defense, Brady just did it in back to back years. Take them out and he is 14-3 think about it.
 
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If ifs and butts were candies and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.
 
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