Bill Belichick Has Only Himself To Blame For This Mess On Defense

BSR said:

I also think this is spot on. I think this fear is leading to some irrational reactions by posters that need to have a bit more patience.

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We made fun of the finesse colts for these types of teams now we're okay with being one? I wasn't aware other fans we're mad at such criticism Am i on a list marked negative fan, Geez.

BB's the man, I'd just like to see him unplug frankenstein.

robbomango said:

We made fun of the finesse colts for these types of teams now we're okay with being one? I wasn't aware other fans we're mad at such criticism Am i on a list marked negative fan, Geez.

BB's the man, I'd just like to see him unplug frankenstein.

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I think its fine to recognize where they have deficiencies and I have been pretty clear about pointing them out in this thread. In fact I've said that the article was difficult to argue against.

However, just as their are some fans that try to sugar coat what they are seeing, there are those that go the opposite and panic at every decision or pick that isn't the bestest and greatest ever. I think many here need to put things in perspective and realize that it is really hard to win in the NFL consistently and there is some ebb and flow over the season and over the years.

I think its especially laughable that some posters think they definitively know what the problem is: They are trading down picks, they need to run the ball more, Kraft needs to force him to have a DC, he needs a GM. This is where I think it goes too far the other way. The reality is that we all here are fairly clueless as to the specifics and there really isn't a simple answer. I feel that those that think that they have all the answers tend to have none.

FreeTedWilliams said:

Dunlap was taken the very next pick after Cunningham, McCourty has nothing to do with him.

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Miss the point much? I am saying that people have been blasting McCourty for his play this year and starting to call him a bust, but people are complaining about not getting Dunlap eventhough he is currently following a similiar path as McCourty. The Fellowship of the Miserable want to discount McCourty's rookie season and discount Dunlap's current season.

Did I say the Jets were a Superbowl team? I didn't think so, the Jets won last year because they get away with PI on pretty much every down. Cromartie got 4 PI penalties last week, and they lost.

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The Jets were a top 3 defense last year. They had no pass rush last year. You and other seem to incorrectly think that defense is all about having a monster pass rush. I really don't care if you want the Jets' defense or not. They go against your argument.

Willie McGinest, you know the guy who holds the record for most career sacks in the playoffs, says "hi"

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McGinest was never a monster pass rusher. He was a very good player. And his stat is overinflated considering all the playoff games he was in. McGinest never had double digit sacks with the Pats. He had 9.5 sacks in 2004, but other than that year he never had more sacks than 6 in a season with Belichick. He was a great overall OLB/DE, but he was never a sack master.

Vrabel and McGinest coming off the edge were a fromidale pair, Seymour has to be doubleteamed, which left Willie or Vrabel to rush against a TE.

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Neither Vrabel nor McGinest were considered dominant pass rushers other than one year each.

The Pats never really lived on a dominant pass rush. They lived on great schemes to created a rush because the QB never could figure out who was rushing and who was dropping in coverages. IMHO, that is missing more than a dominant pass rusher or any individual players. The Pats would pressure QBs more with delayed rushes than any other type of rush. I don't know if the DCs just aren't as good anymore, the players aren't as smart, or the rest of the league have figured out that scheme, but the Pats haven't done that in years.

What was the single biggest play in SB XXXVI? Vrabel hitting Warner which led to Law's pick 6.

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So that is one play. Where was the defense against the Panthers in the Super Bowl when the fourth quarter turned into a game of Madden. We all can cherry pick events.

Please tell me how this defense is going to get better? Is barret suddenly not going to s&*k? Will some yet unknown undrfted Free agent turn into Bruce Smith?

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And yes, the defense in 2001 was never going to get better with washed up cast offs like Anthony Pleasant, Otis Smith, Bryan Cox, Bobby Hamilton (who was more of a never was), and Roman Phifer. Sorry, you cannot write off the defense after three games. If that was true, the Pats would have never won the Super Bowl in the 2001 season.

The Pats have had more than twenty first and second and third round picks in the last few years and only have Mayo, Gronkowski, Vollmer, Chung, McCourty, Vollmer and maye Solder to show for it.


On the other hand we have this list of all-stars:
Merriweather
Wheatley
Butler
McKenzie
Cunningham
Brace
Tate
Crable
O'Connell
Maroney
Jackson
Thomas

That's 7 starters and 12 busts, in the first three rounds.

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LOL! All those guys are busts? Meriweather went to two Pro Bowls and even if they weren't deserved he was a four year starter. Thomas was an intrical part of a Super Bowl win for the Saints. You can blame Belichick for getting rid of him too early, but he was no bust. Maroney was a disapointment, but not a bust. He did make contributions to the team. I know you want to label Cunningham a bust after a little over a year, but you can't yet. He is a starter. Brace is very good when he is healthy. He just needs to stay healthy.

BTW, you look at most of the teams in the league and they have a lot of busts in the first three rounds. The Colts haven't used a first round pick that has worked out since 2006 and that was a disapointing Joseph Addai. All the other picks have been busts including Tony Ugoh (traded a first for him), Anthony Gonzalez, Jerry Hughes, Marlin Jackson, and Donald Brown.

BSR said:

I think its fine to recognize where they have deficiencies and I have been pretty clear about pointing them out in this thread. In fact I've said that the article was difficult to argue against.

However, just as their are some fans that try to sugar coat what they are seeing, there are those that go the opposite and panic at every decision or pick that isn't the bestest and greatest ever. I think many here need to put things in perspective and realize that it is really hard to win in the NFL consistently and there is some ebb and flow over the season and over the years.

I think its especially laughable that some posters think they definitively know what the problem is: They are trading down picks, they need to run the ball more, Kraft needs to force him to have a DC, he needs a GM. This is where I think it goes too far the other way. The reality is that we all here are fairly clueless as to the specifics and there really isn't a simple answer. I feel that those that think that they have all the answers tend to have none.

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There are definitely a lot of issues with this team. Granted there isn't a team that is close to complete this year. I may "sugar coat" things, but it is because I realize that especially with a lack of offseason and a new defensive strategy that it may take time to gel. If come November, the Pats have the same problems then we have to start to really worry.

I have been saying for months before the season started that we are going to see a lot of bad football around the league. I didn't expect the Pats to be immune from it. I am not going to get worried after one loss. Everyone seems to act like this team is going to be like the 2000 Pats and win 5 games. The Pats are trying to put things together while virtually every other team are dealing with big issues and trying to put things together. If the Pats aren't the only ones struggling and you can see from every Power Ranking that people around the country still think they are one of the best teams in the league.

Great post Rob.

And I think the WSJ mentioned in a snippet two days ago that this was the rare time (maybe second) since the merger that NONE of the current division leaders made it to the playoffs in the previous season.

BSR said:

I think its fine to recognize where they have deficiencies and I have been pretty clear about pointing them out in this thread. In fact I've said that the article was difficult to argue against.

However, just as their are some fans that try to sugar coat what they are seeing, there are those that go the opposite and panic at every decision or pick that isn't the bestest and greatest ever. I think many here need to put things in perspective and realize that it is really hard to win in the NFL consistently and there is some ebb and flow over the season and over the years.

I think its especially laughable that some posters think they definitively know what the problem is: They are trading down picks, they need to run the ball more, Kraft needs to force him to have a DC, he needs a GM. This is where I think it goes too far the other way. The reality is that we all here are fairly clueless as to the specifics and there really isn't a simple answer. I feel that those that think that they have all the answers tend to have none.

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It's easier from the outside looking in that's for sure. I'd like to see more "irrational thoughts" threads and "overboard" threads. especially just after a loss 24-48hr thread to get it all off your chest. lol no worries i get it.

Rob0729 said:

Miss the point much? I am saying that people have been blasting McCourty for his play this year and starting to call him a bust, but people are complaining about not getting Dunlap eventhough he is currently following a similiar path as McCourty. The Fellowship of the Miserable want to discount McCourty's rookie season and discount Dunlap's current season.




The Jets were a top 3 defense last year. They had no pass rush last year. You and other seem to incorrectly think that defense is all about having a monster pass rush. I really don't care if you want the Jets' defense or not. They go against your argument.



McGinest was never a monster pass rusher. He was a very good player. And his stat is overinflated considering all the playoff games he was in. McGinest never had double digit sacks with the Pats. He had 9.5 sacks in 2004, but other than that year he never had more sacks than 6 in a season with Belichick. He was a great overall OLB/DE, but he was never a sack master.




Neither Vrabel nor McGinest were considered dominant pass rushers other than one year each.

The Pats never really lived on a dominant pass rush. They lived on great schemes to created a rush because the QB never could figure out who was rushing and who was dropping in coverages. IMHO, that is missing more than a dominant pass rusher or any individual players. The Pats would pressure QBs more with delayed rushes than any other type of rush. I don't know if the DCs just aren't as good anymore, the players aren't as smart, or the rest of the league have figured out that scheme, but the Pats haven't done that in years.




So that is one play. Where was the defense against the Panthers in the Super Bowl when the fourth quarter turned into a game of Madden. We all can cherry pick events.




And yes, the defense in 2001 was never going to get better with washed up cast offs like Anthony Pleasant, Otis Smith, Bryan Cox, Bobby Hamilton (who was more of a never was), and Roman Phifer. Sorry, you cannot write off the defense after three games. If that was true, the Pats would have never won the Super Bowl in the 2001 season.



LOL! All those guys are busts? Meriweather went to two Pro Bowls and even if they weren't deserved he was a four year starter. Thomas was an intrical part of a Super Bowl win for the Saints. You can blame Belichick for getting rid of him too early, but he was no bust. Maroney was a disapointment, but not a bust. He did make contributions to the team. I know you want to label Cunningham a bust after a little over a year, but you can't yet. He is a starter. Brace is very good when he is healthy. He just needs to stay healthy.

BTW, you look at most of the teams in the league and they have a lot of busts in the first three rounds. The Colts haven't used a first round pick that has worked out since 2006 and that was a disapointing Joseph Addai. All the other picks have been busts including Tony Ugoh (traded a first for him), Anthony Gonzalez, Jerry Hughes, Marlin Jackson, and Donald Brown.

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I think it was Marlin Jackson that ended our SB run in 2006 with the Brady pick...if he goes down as a bust that might be something he will remember worth playing for.

BSR said:

Kraft needs to force him to have a DC, he needs a GM.

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When he had both of those things he was winning Super Bowls. Just sayin'.

Darolyn72 said:

I was impressed that people are finally looking at this from a critical angle because it is about Championships.

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I rarely if ever post, but I couldn't help it here. I would have started a thread on this, but I'm not allowed to with my post count. This in an attitude that I see all the time on this board, but I just don't get. Not to sound overly critical, but I think it speaks to a lack of history. My Dad lived from 1941-2002. He never saw the Red Sox win a Championship. He lived and died with that team- worshipped Ted Williams and later marveled at Wade Boggs. The season never ended with joy, but he would always be back to watch with the TV muted and the radio on (he grew up in an era of listening not watching and he always loved to hear the games in radio format) He had season tickets for NE in their first year of existence. He only saw the Patriots win one. We would talk about sports all the time, and this topic never came up- of a season being a failure because their was no championship at the end.

I am not suggesting the original poster meant this, but I think too many NE fans take the Patriots winning or losing as a personal reflection upon themselves. We feel smarter when we win. We somehow integrate their success with our own. And yet, the failures or shortcomings often belong to someone else. Often, on Sunday, we are often unhappy after wins. That was never the case in the late 80's or early 90's. Any win was a good win.

We have very little do with their success. We have pretty quiet fans with a great sense of entitlement. They play, we watch, we buy stuff, we talk, we argue, we speculate, we play arm chair coach- it is a great hobby.

Certainly, we can be critical of NE, the defense, Belichick-etc. - especially on a message board. I am not suggesting otherwise. We hope that the team continually strives to improve and address weakness. Most teams that have had success, the championship Steelers, Oakland, Dallas, Washington, SF, NY Giants, Dallas again, Denver and the Steelers agin- have some losing after winning. Generally teams don't try to rebuild soon enough, thinking that they are just a play or two or a player or two, away from winning the who thing. Usually, that is not the case.

The reality is, it is very hard to win, and NE could go decades without winning another. And so could any other of todays contending teams. It takes some luck and some great play to win it all.

For me, Sunday was discouraging. I wasn't happy. The defense is frustrating. I do feel that Belichick has struggled to adapt to the newer coverage rules. It is strange that I prefer it when the opponent is 3rd and 3 instead of 3rd and 11. Yet, for me, it isn't all about championships., because I remember when there were none. It is about being excited and interested every week, because the team is competitive- because every week you have the chance to see something special. Even is last week's loss, Welker was magnificent.
It was great drama, and better than almost anything else on tv. A film doesn't have to have a happy ending for me to appreciate it, and neither does my season as a patriots fan.

The most frustrating thing going on the last few weeks has been the half time adjustments. It just seems from an outsiders perspective that they haven't been very good and that is puzzling to me.

Patriots Nation NY said:

Eugene Chung doesn't go unscathed..

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The wife and I just bought a new car through him....

It isn't really about Championships either but when you have this era's Montana or Unitas, you don't want to squander opportunities by having such a dare I say it fatal weakness like your defense...especially when you have a HoF Coach (who's specialty is defense) like Belichick.

rabidfireweasel said:

... a patriots fan.

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Thanks for the reality check. I remember the days of Huge Millions and Scott "missin" Sisson. We are spoiled; imagine Buffalo fans, who've had to endure the last several years after their great run of fo... uh, four consecutive losses in the SB. LOL
We should all roast a turkey every game day!
And eat crow the day after, maybe? Sorry, not ready for that yet.

I'd like to see BB post a critique of the team and staff on here, he'd make us look like softies.

TB as well, these 2 don't except losing they loathe it, we all know that. When TB was asked if the Browns loss was a good thing because of the winning streak they went on, he said something to the effect of "you never want to lose a game if you can help it". It was like the reporter tried to force feed superman kryptonite. He thought it was an idiotic question, looked like he couldn't register it for a sec. losing=good where's a backgammon board to drop elbows on.

BB wasn't answering a question like that last sunday or any day. He knows his D is playing dreadful, doesn't need or want a loss to prove it.

That being said as fans we don't control their destiny, we can only pretend too. We all deal with losses differently and if someone wants to talk about slashing brady, BB or even welker LOL, so be it. Just don't expect to much positive feedback.

playing coach is part of being a fan have fun. Go Pats!!!

Safeties are green. Time..... This is all going to change, bank on it......

alvinnf said:

Safeties are green. Time..... This is all going to change, bank on it......

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what's the excuse you have for DL ? or LB ? or the CB who is turning into Ellis Hobbs 2.0, Darius Butler 2.0 ?


As Parcells once said that Patriots fans should know well...

"If they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries"

BB has had that opportunity to shop ALL the groceries with the Patriots the past 12 years. He can be lauded for his success, and conversely he can be slammed for HIS mess over past years.

The Patriots defense is designed to take away your best weapons and play safe to prevent the big play.

Somewhere between those 2 things is where you give up 15 yards on average in the middle of the field.

The Patriots stopped Antonio Gates dead in his tracks when they played the chargers, and they prevented most of the big plays (except practically every ball thrown to Vincent Jackson) other than that, they stopped the running game pretty well and made rivers pass the ball. it worked well enough.

The Bills are similar to the patriots in that they have alot of threats. the patriots cant play defense the same way they played defense against the chargers against the bills because the bills dont have one weapon to take away from them. if you focus most of the scheme in stopping one guy on the bills it hardly matters at all because they have alot of skill on the field with a quarterback who can get them the ball.

The Patriots almost never blitz, but they might as well start blitzing their linebackers since the middle of the field is going to be carved up regardless if they dont get there, Fitzgerald is not Peyton manning, he wont be able to properly make his reads before the rush gets to him.

The way things are going now, the patriots MIGHT AS WELL start playing more risky and trying to become more opportunistic, every team in the league has a quarterback who can get the ball out of there to somebody against a 3 or 4 man rush and the patriots simply dont have the personnel to get there with what they have right now.

i want to see more corner, and linebacker blitzes, its the only way to prevent an offense line from digging in on their man the entire game.

with Mccourty on their ones, Dowling and Arrington should be occasionally blitzing and having safeties pick up their man, especially on 3rd and long.

like i said, if it doesnt work, its not like the patriots would have been able to stop them anyway.

of course this is just my opinion.

Darolyn72 said:

Ted you're 1000% right. But Mo Lewis doesn't want to hear the truth he wants to sit there on his couch or in the stands mumbling to himself, "In Bill We Trust," "In Bill We Trust". Some people just don't want to admit the truth. I have noticed though that more and more on the message board are coming around. And you have to realize certain people can never be convinced of the most obvious details.

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Are you a troll or just a pinhead?

We are the winningest team in the NFL since BB took over.

I assume you think you are smarter than BB whilst sitting on your couch?

rabidfireweasel said:

I am not suggesting the original poster meant this, but I think too many NE fans take the Patriots winning or losing as a personal reflection upon themselves. We feel smarter when we win. We somehow integrate their success with our own.

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Are you saying this is unique to Patriots' fans? A central component to being a fan is feeling better about things when your team wins. That's part of the satisfaction of being a fan.

Rob0729 said:

The bandwagon door for fairweather fairs is that way. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Seriously, after week three making these proclaimations?!?

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I like how you typically categorize posters who are critical of the team bandwagon fans. Maybe you should stop being narrow minded and look at Ted's point because you can't dispute all the busts he's listed the past several years.

Yeah yeah, you're gonna say BB's the winningest coach etc etc, we get that. Everybody does. But you're sticking your head in the sand if you can't acknowledge that this team/BB has made some boneheaded moves that prevented the team from winning the SB the past couple of years.