Carlos Dunlap vs Jermaine Cunningham

Snake Eyes said:

I would love it of BB could go back in time and get Orakpo instead of Brace and Butler

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Drafting at #12 overall instead of #40 + #41 would indeed be a steal.

patchick said:

Drafting at #12 overall instead of #40 + #41 would indeed be a steal.

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I'd probably even throw in a future pick to make it happen. That said, I wonder if the Brace pick strengthened the Pats bargaining position when negotiating with Wilfork, if so it makes matters a lot more complicated.

At long last: An intelligent FOOTBALL Argument, with defensible positions on ALL sides.

BillBelichickFan79 said:

Bill should take a page out of the Giants book. They are always drafting, developing, and signing front 4 players. You have Osi Umenyoria, Justin Tuck, and Matthias Kiwanuka, and you still take Pierre Paul in the first round, who is turning into a monster.

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I don't agree with the whole post, but I certainly love THIS part.

I've said it before, and I'll say it to my dying day, should it ever arrive:

You can NEVER have TOO much FirePower.

For the first time in AGES, Coach Bill The Mad finally has the Depth of Talent at Defensive End, HeffaLump, and Flanker that I and others have been SCREAMING for.

Now here's hoping he does what he failed to do last time:

Deal From Strength.

Start drafting these players...and develop them behind the guys we have now.

And don't EVER let 2005-2010 happen AGAIN.

It is SO good...to be BACK.

...Even though many don't quite see it that way.

Take a look back, boys: Coach Bill The Mad uses Septembers as an extension of Training Camp...which is exactly what he should be doing.

What's clear to me, now, will soon be clear to the majority, who currently clearly perceive this Defense as AWFUL:

Once October rolls around, this D is going to be HUMMING...And I do believe that its exploits will ASTONISH those who are currently declaring its demise.

Inquiring minds have been asking "Where is Cunningham" after 3 games.

Here is the Rap Sheet Twitter response to a fan:

@RapSheet Ian R. Rapoport
Hasn't been on the field. Bad sign. RT @Ogles_11: @RapSheet I thought Cunningham was gonna be a big pass rusher... hadn't heard his name

I know what you are thinking: "There goes another second round pick".

By the way Brook Reed and Jabal Sheard this year -- whom BB passed over for Ras_I have been playing -- and playing well. Something to keep an eye on.

PatsFanStnfrd said:

Inquiring minds have been asking "Where is Cunningham" after 3 games.

Here is the Rap Sheet Twitter response to a fan:

@RapSheet Ian R. Rapoport
Hasn't been on the field. Bad sign. RT @Ogles_11: @RapSheet I thought Cunningham was gonna be a big pass rusher... hadn't heard his name

I know what you are thinking: "There goes another second round pick".

By the way Brook Reed and Jabal Sheard this year -- whom BB passed over for Ras_I have been playing -- and playing well. Something to keep an eye on.

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They have been playing well... but so has Ras-I so it's really one or the other.

Don't worry, folks, Cunningham is ready to make that great 1st-to-2nd-year leap
that Bill's draft groupies insist always happens...or not.

patchick said:

Ah, did you notice that the high picks you mentioned were all with different teams? Parcells could spend lots of high picks on shiny players because he never stuck around long enough to deal with drafting late year after year. Belichick, though, sticks with the Patriots. How can he "emphasize" spending top-10 picks any particular way when he's only had one in the past decade?

Granted, he didn't spend that one on a pass rusher but an ILB, which was a pretty glaring need at the time. But let's say he made it more of a priority and passed on Mayo...who could the Patriots have drafted at OLB/DE instead?

The answers are: Derrick Harvey and Lawrence Jackson, or with a trade up possibly Vernon Gholston. Not one of them managed to last out his rookie contract.

It's just really, really hard to find pass rushers even at the top of the draft, and that much harder later. (That's not to say they shouldn't at least be trying, though! I'd even like to see more cheap picks like Markell Carter, super-athletic guys who might turn into something. That was Cameron Wake once, after all.)

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Come on Patchick.

Don't remember if I read it in a Parcells book or saw it on a draft special with him, but he said something about how he believed top 10-15 picks were to be spent on 3 or 4 major positions, with pass rusher being one of the top areas to spend it.

You can make all the excuses for Belichick that you want. The fact that his teams are always picking in the late 20's is irrelevant to me. He can still "emphasize" getting an elite pass rusher or elite defensive lineman by trading up into the top 10-15 with all the ammo that he usually has. Of course here come the calls of bad value, cap jail, etc. You don't have to do it every year. You really only have to do it once if your scouting and talent evaluation is good.

And the fact of the matter is that the one thing Belichick has been good at is picking guys in the first round. So if he went after a pass rusher in the top 10, wouldn't you be pretty confident you're getting a top flight player? Wouldn't you be confident you're not getting a combine hyped Gholston or Maybin?

Of all the great pass rushers that have come from top 15 picks in the draft over the last decade (Ware, Suggs, Merriman, Orakpo, Peppers, Mario Williams, etc.), you don't think Belichick is skilled enough to assess and target these types of players? You think you're more likely to end up with a Maybin/Gholston than a Ware/Suggs/Peppers? That's a real indictment on Belichick and the Pats Draft Brain Trust then.

I'm so sick of hearing how it's "hard to find a pass rusher" at the top of the draft. Uh, no. Usually the best pass rushers are the consensus top college talents that are going in the top 10. Just like usually the best corners are going in the top half of the first round, not in the 2nd round. 1st round you Revis or Vontae Davis. Second round you get Butler or Wheatley.

I have no problem with taking shots in the dark on guys with high upside late in the draft like a Carter or a Greg Romeus. I encourage. But to think those blind shots in the dark is the way you should about adequately addressing your most dire need is absolutely crazy and just plain ridiculous. Those guys should be viewed as bonuses.

I can't believe there are still people who try to twist this and go to the wall for Belichick and his refusal/inability to draft and develop any type of pass rusher.

BillBelichickFan79 said:

And the fact of the matter is that the one thing Belichick has been good at is picking guys in the first round. So if he went after a pass rusher in the top 10, wouldn't you be pretty confident you're getting a top flight player? Wouldn't you be confident you're not getting a combine hyped Gholston or Maybin?

Of all the great pass rushers that have come from top 15 picks in the draft over the last decade (Ware, Suggs, Merriman, Orakpo, Peppers, Mario Williams, etc.), you don't think Belichick is skilled enough to assess and target these types of players? You think you're more likely to end up with a Maybin/Gholston than a Ware/Suggs/Peppers? That's a real indictment on Belichick and the Pats Draft Brain Trust then.

I'm so sick of hearing how it's "hard to find a pass rusher" at the top of the draft. Uh, no. Usually the best pass rushers are the consensus top college talents that are going in the top 10. Just like usually the best corners are going in the top half of the first round, not in the 2nd round. 1st round you Revis or Vontae Davis. Second round you get Butler or Wheatley.

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1. We have no idea how good Belichick is at assessing pass rushers. He's never done it high in the draft, and he's never found a pass rusher in free agency that contributed for more than a season or so. Maybe the difficulty in evaluating is why he doesn't bother taking that risk.

2. Finding pass rushers at the top of the draft is a hell of a lot harder than you make it sound. Since 2001, the top 15 picks alone has produced Jamal Reynolds (3 career sacks), Michael Haynes (5.5), Jerome McDougle (3), Gaines Adams (13.5), Jamaal Anderson (5.5), Vernon Gholston (0), Derrick Harvey (8), and Aaron Maybin (0). If it were easy, the success rate would be a heck of a lot higher than the 50% or so that it is.

You want to flip a coin, getting a stud pass rusher if heads or a complete bust if tails. Bill flips 4 coins and gets either a solid starter if heads or a complete bust if tails. And his combined 4 guys are cheaper than your one. You may not agree with it, but there's a reason he's doing this professionally and you're not.

Sciz said:

You may not agree with it, but there's a reason he's doing this professionally and you're not.

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Sorry but I can't agree with this line of reasoning, just because someone is a "professional" at something doesn't necessarily mean their way of doing this is the best or even good for that matter. In just about every profession there are paradigms that exist and are reinforced, information which appears to support what they believe is taken as causative and the information which conflicts is often discounted and forgotten. It's not specific to football, people do it in general, a hammer sees the world as a nail.

Also, regarding why things are done a certain way in pro sports:

"there is one group of people whose opinion coaches care intensely about: other coaches. Cast your eye upon the sideline and you will find evidence of their desire to get along with one another. Invariably you'll spot some older fellow, himself once a less-than-successful head man, now paid in the high six, or even seven, figures to coordinate the offense for his old pal, the current head coach. Further down you will see some young fellow in charge of the special teams who longs to be put in charge of the defense. None of these people could make anything like the living they do outside of football. And the main requirement for remaining inside football is that the other people inside football want you to be there.

Here may be the nub of the fourth-down quandary. It's not that the decision is so complex, but, rather, that it's so conspicuous—far more so than, say, a new rule or scheme. Go for it on fourth down more often than any other coach, and you not only set yourself apart from your peers, but you call into question their intelligence. If your decision doesn't pay off—if you go for it routinely and your team fails—you'll stand accused of malpractice. If your decision pays off—if you go for it routinely and succeed—you'll be branded a maverick or, worse, a gambler. (The same tendency, by the way, has been demonstrated on Wall Street, where many fund managers shy away from big investments that may distinguish them from their peers.) And God help you if you stop winning. Break with the pack on such a conspicuous decision and you don't merely improve your chances of winning. You insult all coaches who do things the old-fashioned way. It may be excellent football strategy, but it's a risky career move"

The numbers show that NFL coaches should go for it more - ESPN The Magazine

I could show you countless examples of football players essentially training like bodybuilders instead of training in a manner which much more closely corresponds with what they do on the field and also show you mountains of data proving that but you’re not likely to see big shifts in how training is done at the professional level for the above stated reasons.

BB’s method might be less expensive, and if we were simply talking about who’s a better businessman you’d be 100% correct, but we’re talking about getting impact football players who will help you win championships.

That said, if find it strange that people simply write off player evaluations that don’t work out. If one has as much at stake as pro football teams do I’d hope they’d want more than “it’s not an exact science…the draft is a crapshoot, etc”. There is a reason for everything, and failing to look for those reasons when something happens or fails to happen is unacceptable IMO. With that kind of attitude humans would never have advanced beyond the caves.

Sciz said:

1. We have no idea how good Belichick is at assessing pass rushers. He's never done it high in the draft, and he's never found a pass rusher in free agency that contributed for more than a season or so. Maybe the difficulty in evaluating is why he doesn't bother taking that risk.

2. Finding pass rushers at the top of the draft is a hell of a lot harder than you make it sound. Since 2001, the top 15 picks alone has produced Jamal Reynolds (3 career sacks), Michael Haynes (5.5), Jerome McDougle (3), Gaines Adams (13.5), Jamaal Anderson (5.5), Vernon Gholston (0), Derrick Harvey (8), and Aaron Maybin (0). If it were easy, the success rate would be a heck of a lot higher than the 50% or so that it is.

You want to flip a coin, getting a stud pass rusher if heads or a complete bust if tails. Bill flips 4 coins and gets either a solid starter if heads or a complete bust if tails. And his combined 4 guys are cheaper than your one. You may not agree with it, but there's a reason he's doing this professionally and you're not.

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Gotta love the In Bill We Trust crowd. Nothing he ever does is wrong, his philosophies are right, fans aren't allowed to say his philosophies are wrong because he's a "professional" and you as a fan aren't. It's quite insufferable to listen to how Belichick is so much smarter than everyone else because he realizes that the draft is a crapshoot so he trades down and takes a whole bunch of guys so his margin for error is greater. You people try to rationalize what he does and you think it makes you seem football smart, but it's just insufferable garbage. Matt Millen was also a "professional" personnel guy in the NFL for a long time. Guess he must've been great at what he was doing too.

1. You can make all the excuses you want for not drafting a pass rusher. More often than not, you have to move up to get one of those guys (Ware, Peppers, Mario Williams, Merriman, Suggs, etc). And if Bill really is as good as you say he is, then he his hit/miss ratio is proably 80/20 in the first round, maybe 85/15. But even when you're sitting in the 20's, and a pass rusher like Clay Matthews or LaMarr Woodley falls to you where it's better perceived "value," there's no excuse for not taking the guy.

2. Maybe BB shouldn't be doing this professionally. He's consistently failed to address the major needs of this team on defense. The linebacking corps has been in shambles since Bruschi retired and Vrabel was traded. The pass rush has been anemic as far back as late in 2007 after Rosie Colvin went down in the dying seconds of the Colts game. Pick after pick has been burned on non-impact trash on defense. Ron Brace, McKenzie, Butler, Wheatley, Crable, etc. Maybe he should just stick to coaching because his personnel moves over the last 4 years have been suspect at best.

3. Please stop with your 4 coins is better value crap. Just because you get more players doesn't mean you get BETTER players. You keep taking your 4 players, two of which will bust out and two of which will make the team as backup/role players. I'll take my one great player. Just look at what a player like Suh has done for that defensive line over the last two years. And look at what we were with Seymour and what we've been without Seymour. One player like that can make a massive difference.

4. All the religious IBBWT supporters take the trading up talk way out of proportion. You make it sound like fans want the Pats to trade up every single year and commit huge dollars at the top of the draft. That's not what people are saying. They know that's not smart and not feasible. But what people do want to see is the Pats trading up for once to get that stud front 7 defensive player that they have lacked for so many years. Sorry to break it to you but guys like Spikes and Cunningham went in the second round for a reason. They don't really scare anyone. A guy like Orakpo is a top 15 pick for a reason.

5. You were on the verge of mentioning salary cap jail with your cheaper and better value propositions. It doesn't exist. Dimitroff, a product of the "BB personnel tree" has been aggressive in the draft, trading up quite a few times over the years. He's also spent pretty big in free agency on guys like Dunta Robinson, Michael Turner, and Ray Edwards. He was also able to take care of paying his offensive lineman what they want and giving Roddy White one of the top 5 salaries for a WR at the time in 2009. The Patriots way of doing is business is not the only way. It's just one of the cheapest ways. Don't commit a lot of assets to big ticket free agents or high draft picks. Try to pay 75 cents on the dollar and see what slips through the cracks with mid level free agents and "value" draft picks.

Trying to be the smartest guy in the room with their value system and all that crap has burned this team and led to a severe talent drain. Tom Brady masks a ton of the deficiencies on both offense and defense and makes Belichick look smarter/better than he truly is.

jsull87 said:

They have been playing well... but so has Ras-I so it's really one or the other.

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Ras-I hasn't been playing, period! I don't care how well he looks when gets out there if it's only one or two games in seven (including preseason). He was made of glass in highschool and college and sadly it seems he hasn't shaken that in the pros. Most people saw that coming well before he was picked.

Peachhead said:

Ras-I hasn't been playing, period! I don't care how well he looks when gets out there if it's only one or two games in seven (including preseason). He was made of glass in highschool and college and sadly it seems he hasn't shaken that in the pros. Most people saw that coming well before he was picked.

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There seems to be a history of picking injury prone DB's look at Wheatley Whilhite, A Samuel, Chung. And most of them had a HX of being injury prone in college, its a real head scratcher to me.

BillBelichickFan79 said:

Gotta love the In Bill We Trust crowd. Nothing he ever does is wrong, his philosophies are right, fans aren't allowed to say his philosophies are wrong because he's a "professional" and you as a fan aren't. It's quite insufferable to listen to how Belichick is so much smarter than everyone else because he realizes that the draft is a crapshoot so he trades down and takes a whole bunch of guys so his margin for error is greater. You people try to rationalize what he does and you think it makes you seem football smart, but it's just insufferable garbage. Matt Millen was also a "professional" personnel guy in the NFL for a long time. Guess he must've been great at what he was doing too.

1. You can make all the excuses you want for not drafting a pass rusher. More often than not, you have to move up to get one of those guys (Ware, Peppers, Mario Williams, Merriman, Suggs, etc). And if Bill really is as good as you say he is, then he his hit/miss ratio is proably 80/20 in the first round, maybe 85/15. But even when you're sitting in the 20's, and a pass rusher like Clay Matthews or LaMarr Woodley falls to you where it's better perceived "value," there's no excuse for not taking the guy.

2. Maybe BB shouldn't be doing this professionally. He's consistently failed to address the major needs of this team on defense. The linebacking corps has been in shambles since Bruschi retired and Vrabel was traded. The pass rush has been anemic as far back as late in 2007 after Rosie Colvin went down in the dying seconds of the Colts game. Pick after pick has been burned on non-impact trash on defense. Ron Brace, McKenzie, Butler, Wheatley, Crable, etc. Maybe he should just stick to coaching because his personnel moves over the last 4 years have been suspect at best.

3. Please stop with your 4 coins is better value crap. Just because you get more players doesn't mean you get BETTER players. You keep taking your 4 players, two of which will bust out and two of which will make the team as backup/role players. I'll take my one great player. Just look at what a player like Suh has done for that defensive line over the last two years. And look at what we were with Seymour and what we've been without Seymour. One player like that can make a massive difference.

4. All the religious IBBWT supporters take the trading up talk way out of proportion. You make it sound like fans want the Pats to trade up every single year and commit huge dollars at the top of the draft. That's not what people are saying. They know that's not smart and not feasible. But what people do want to see is the Pats trading up for once to get that stud front 7 defensive player that they have lacked for so many years. Sorry to break it to you but guys like Spikes and Cunningham went in the second round for a reason. They don't really scare anyone. A guy like Orakpo is a top 15 pick for a reason.

5. You were on the verge of mentioning salary cap jail with your cheaper and better value propositions. It doesn't exist. Dimitroff, a product of the "BB personnel tree" has been aggressive in the draft, trading up quite a few times over the years. He's also spent pretty big in free agency on guys like Dunta Robinson, Michael Turner, and Ray Edwards. He was also able to take care of paying his offensive lineman what they want and giving Roddy White one of the top 5 salaries for a WR at the time in 2009. The Patriots way of doing is business is not the only way. It's just one of the cheapest ways. Don't commit a lot of assets to big ticket free agents or high draft picks. Try to pay 75 cents on the dollar and see what slips through the cracks with mid level free agents and "value" draft picks.

Trying to be the smartest guy in the room with their value system and all that crap has burned this team and led to a severe talent drain. Tom Brady masks a ton of the deficiencies on both offense and defense and makes Belichick look smarter/better than he truly is.

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Seriously, you should find another team to root for. Like the Falcons. That was a stupid GD trade he made for Julio Jones. They are not going to make the playoffs and it will be in the mid-teens and the Cleveland Browns will say thank you very much. Belichick will be around here a long time. If you're not happy with a guy who builds a 16-0 team that loses in the Super Bowl. Goes 11-5 when his qb gets hurt. Rebuilds and is 14-2 two years later. You are clueless.
Notice I haven't even mentioned 3 Super Bowls yet. There is not a GM in the league who doesn't make bad draft picks. I also love how you mention the picks who don't cut it. But ignore guys like; Wilfork, Mayo, McCourty and Chung.

Isn't it time to remove your Brandon Meriweather avatar?

patchick said:

Drafting at #12 overall instead of #40 + #41 would indeed be a steal.

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My thinking was using #26 + #40 to grab #12 for Orakpo, if you go by the draft value chart it's a pretty equal trade. So assuming Denver was agreeable to the trade, would Orakpo likely have more impact than the players likely to be available at #26 and #40 from 2009 eyes?

After 5 games, not sure it is a good sign when ESPN Boston Pats' Blog has a column with the Q: "Where is Jermaine Cunningham?"

Enough said!

PatsFanStnfrd said:

After 5 games, not sure it is a good sign when ESPN Boston Pats' Blog has a column with the Q: "Where is Jermaine Cunningham?"

Enough said!

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"I think one of the things that Jermaine has had to work through is the time he missed in training camp and the preseason,
...
This year we transitioned to a little bit more multiple defensive front, and that's been an adjustment for him. Missing that time didn't help him any. He's worked hard and done a good job to get back on the field -- getting rehab and getting back out there. I think he's improving. He's gotten a little better each week. He's definitely on the upswing here. He's a guy that we hop [sic] will be able to contribute for us."

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Doesn't sound like a guy who is in the doghouse.

Meanwhile, Dunlap has 1 start and 0 sacks. We'd be complaining about him right now too, since he wouldn't be getting any playing time over Carter, Ellis, or Anderson either. Cunningham at least has his lost training camp and the scheme switch to blame.

Snake Eyes said:

"...Here may be the nub of the fourth-down quandary. It's not that the decision is so complex, but, rather, that it's so conspicuous—far more so than, say, a new rule or scheme. Go for it on fourth down more often than any other coach, and you not only set yourself apart from your peers, but you call into question their intelligence. If your decision doesn't pay off—if you go for it routinely and your team fails—you'll stand accused of malpractice. If your decision pays off—if you go for it routinely and succeed—you'll be branded a maverick or, worse, a gambler. (The same tendency, by the way, has been demonstrated on Wall Street, where many fund managers shy away from big investments that may distinguish them from their peers.) And God help you if you stop winning. Break with the pack on such a conspicuous decision and you don't merely improve your chances of winning. You insult all coaches who do things the old-fashioned way. It may be excellent football strategy, but it's a risky career move" [/I]

The numbers show that NFL coaches should go for it more - ESPN The Magazine

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Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but I read that article too; and what it goes on to mention is what I believed from the moment it happened: going for the 1st down on 4th/2 was not a mistake - what was a mistake was throwing the ball instead of running it. Furthermore, throwing on 3rd/2 instead of running was as big a mistake, if not bigger, than throwing on 4th/2.

reflexblue said:

There seems to be a history of picking injury prone DB's look at Wheatley Whilhite, A Samuel, Chung. And most of them had a HX of being injury prone in college, its a real head scratcher to me.

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This is just crap.

Wilhite, Samuel and Chung were healthy in college (as were BMW and DMC).

Wheatley redshirted a year but was healthy his other four.

Dowling was healthy his first three years before having injury issues his fourth year.

Man, some really great Arguments going on in this Thread.