Thoughts on #85 and the WR's

LasVegasPatsFan said:

In fairness to Chad and his two drops, the whole team stunk up the place. Even McCourty looked awful. The only bright spots were Hernandez, Welker, and Edelman.

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Like opposing defenses, you didn't see Woodhead

cstjohn17 said:

Everyone looked bad last night but random thoughts on the WRs:
- the WRs were junk
- 85 looks lost
- Branch is MIA
- Welker is great but if he is lining up on the outside that is not a good thing for the Patriots
- Tate looks like a pretty nice 6th or 7th option at WR but he doesn't look reliable

Looks like they are going to live between the hashes and go with a lot of 5 TE sets.

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The Pats 2011 fate is tied to their defense. If Carter/Ellis/Hanyesworth play to their career norms, then this offense is adequate to win a SB with.

That said, if you want to know what the 2011 team really looks like, become a fly on the wall at one of their closed practices.

Thoughts are that Tate and Price are useless.

I certainly hope it is because he's thinking too much, but #85 just looks slow to me. Then, you consider all the drops in the games and practices. It would be great if he becomes a nice compliment to this offense, but I have my doubts at this point.

I think it's kind of tough to compare Moss and how he did coming in vs. Chad and how he has done. Obviously, it's been brought up the longer offseason but from what I remember Moss ran a lot of vertical routes that did rely on timing, but also relied on sheer athletic ability and having a QB that could get the ball anywhere in his general vicinity downfield.

That being the case, we had one of the best and most efficient passing games last year, and the main change (from what I gather) is that we've added a saavy vet who has solid skills and ability and may need a few weeks to get acclimated. So will any other player that comes in at this point. Yes, Branch and Welker are a year older, but so are Gronk, Hernandez, Edelman, Tate, Woodhead, etc. And we've added a couple of young backs to help BJGE & Woodhead make defenses pay more attention to the ground game. Ocho doesn't have to be a superstar this year. He needs to command attention (which he will), and get in a halfway decent rythm with a QB that has been known by everyone in football to do more with less.

If the OL can play well enough to give Brady some time, I am not worried about our passing game. Having a solid, healthy player at RG will have a bigger effect on the passing game at this point than Ocho taking a few weeks to figure things out. In my opinion, of course.

Looks like my speculation that the local media would take it easy on Ochocinco because he would give them plenty of quotes to write about appears to be incorrect.

Team moves meetings after outage - BostonHerald.com - Dan Duggan

The Patriots edition of the Chad Ochocinco show mostly has been a dud in the preseason.

The wide receiver had two catches for 14 yards and a touchdown in his preseason debut Aug. 18 against Tampa Bay, but was held without a catch Saturday against the Lions.

Ochocinco has struggled with drops during training camp and had another one Saturday on a Brian Hoyer pass. Quarterback Tom Brady took the blame for an interception thrown in Ochocinco’s direction late in the first half.

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By comparison they're giving Deion Branch a little bit more slack, based on the headline and tone of this article:

Deion Branch: Zero concern about no catches - BostonHerald.com - Rich Thompson

[

Ron Sellers said:

Looks like my speculation that the local media would take it easy on Ochocinco because he would give them plenty of quotes to write about appears to be incorrect.

Team moves meetings after outage - BostonHerald.com - Dan Duggan





By comparison they're giving Deion Branch a little bit more slack, based on the headline and tone of this article:

Deion Branch: Zero concern about no catches - BostonHerald.com - Rich Thompson

[

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Because Deion knows the system, Chad does not. Chad can lie all he wants during his interviews but it's clear to anyone watching these pre-season games that the guy is struggling. Why everyone feels the need to apologize and protect this over-hyped millionnaire is beyond me.

Garbanza said:

Because Deion knows the system, Chad does not. Chad can lie all he wants during his interviews but it's clear to anyone watching these pre-season games that the guy is struggling. Why everyone feels the need to apologize and protect this over-hyped millionnaire is beyond me.

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By the same token, why anyone feels the need to constantly harp on the guy, have unrealistic and unprecedented expectations for his learning curve, and flat-out advocate cutting him at this juncture is beyond me.

Garbanza said:

Because Deion knows the system, Chad does not. Chad can lie all he wants during his interviews but it's clear to anyone watching these pre-season games that the guy is struggling. Why everyone feels the need to apologize and protect this over-hyped millionnaire is beyond me.

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Does Ochocinco know how to lie? I feel like everything from him comes straight from his mind without any filter of any kind :lol2:

JackBauer said:

By the same token, why anyone feels the need to constantly harp on the guy, have unrealistic and unprecedented expectations for his learning curve, and flat-out advocate cutting him at this juncture is beyond me.

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Because I beleive this is one of BB's worst signings. It makes me even more disgusted when I see people fawning over him because of his celebrity. Check out twitter sometimes. It's nauseating some of the jock sniffing, ass kissing people do to this guy.

I am more concerned about our wide recievers than any other position by far. Even when our defense sucks, we are at least average by the end of the year every time. But when we rely on brady as much as we do we need recievers and so far ocho is scaring me. I dont expect him to be a pro bowler but i would very much like him to be basically jabar gaffney.

Just thinking right now, I am glad that josh mcdaniels ruined the broncos but he hurt us by taking away jabar and we still havent replaced lonnie. Who steals other teams long snappers like that anyway.

Garbanza said:

Because I beleive this is one of BB's worst signings. It makes me even more disgusted when I see people fawning over him because of his celebrity. Check out twitter sometimes. It's nauseating some of the jock sniffing, ass kissing people do to this guy.

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So you hate the signing. So that means that he doesn't get the same passes that a player you liked the signing of would get?

I advise you to check out the Twitter of the several hundred other players who tweet. I am sure you will find far worse Twitter abusers including Brandon Spikes. Ochocinco's Twitter account is just far more public.

Yesterday, you blasted him because he was slow to pick up the system because guys like Gaffney picked it up quicker. So if Ochocinco get about 150 yards and 1 TD this regular season, that would be a major success because that is what Gaffney got in his first year as a Patriot.

No offense, but you are not showing any objectivity on Ochocinco. There is plenty of evidence that this system is tough to pick up and guys like Gaffney has shown it can take months to do so. Ochocinco has had a month.

Rob0729 said:

So you hate the signing. So that means that he doesn't get the same passes that a player you liked the signing of would get?

I advise you to check out the Twitter of the several hundred other players who tweet. I am sure you will find far worse Twitter abusers including Brandon Spikes. Ochocinco's Twitter account is just far more public.

Yesterday, you blasted him because he was slow to pick up the system because guys like Gaffney picked it up quicker. So if Ochocinco get about 150 yards and 1 TD this regular season, that would be a major success because that is what Gaffney got in his first year as a Patriot.

No offense, but you are not showing any objectivity on Ochocinco. There is plenty of evidence that this system is tough to pick up and guys like Gaffney has shown it can take months to do so. Ochocinco has had a month.

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Brandon Spikes tweets like a psycho. LOL!

I'm not talking about Ocho's tweets. The man is a PR genius. I'm talking about people that tweet him. The ass kissin, jock sniffin, Pepe lovin' losers.

Yes, Gaffney's expectations are going to be on par with a boarderline HOF'er on the decline. Be real.

Okay, Plaxico Burress seems to being doing well enough learning the Jets O. Yes, it's a bit more bland than the Pats' and more run heavy.....but he endured the same lock out and a two year lock up on top of that.

Randy Moss did not play a lick in 2007 pre-season games and came out and had a record breaking year.

And yes, I do not like Chado Ochodoodoo player. At all. I think he's a funny guy. Great marketer. Seems like a cool person. HIGHLY OVERATED AS A PLAYER.

Garbanza said:

Brandon Spikes tweets like a psycho. LOL!

I'm not talking about Ocho's tweets. The man is a PR genius. I'm talking about people that tweet him. The ass kissin, jock sniffin, Pepe lovin' losers.

Yes, Gaffney's expectations are going to be on par with a boarderline HOF'er on the decline. Be real.

Okay, Plaixo Burress seems to being doing well wnough learning the Jets O. Yes, it's a bit more bland than the Pats' and more run heavy.....but he endured the same lock out and a two year lock up on top of that.

Randy Moss did not play a lick in 2007 pre-season games and came out and had a record breaking year.

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Sanchez targeted Plax three times last night. Plax set the world on fire catch ZERO of them. On play, Plax clearly ran the wrong route. And the Jets' offense is far simplier than the Pats' offense and most of Plax's routes look to be go routes. The only thing Plax was effective at last night was being a decoy on the Holmes' TD.

I already addressed Moss. Moss had five months to learn the playbook. Ochocinco had a month and he had to learn on the fly.

You are the one who brought up Gaffney, not me.

Who cares if people kiss Ochocinco's arse on Twitter? Irrelevant argument in my eyes.

Garbanza said:

Brandon Spikes tweets like a psycho. LOL!

I'm not talking about Ocho's tweets. The man is a PR genius. I'm talking about people that tweet him. The ass kissin, jock sniffin, Pepe lovin' losers.

Yes, Gaffney's expectations are going to be on par with a boarderline HOF'er on the decline. Be real.

Okay, Plaixo Burress seems to being doing well wnough learning the Jets O. Yes, it's a bit more bland than the Pats' and more run heavy.....but he endured the same lock out and a two year lock up on top of that.

Randy Moss did not play a lick in 2007 pre-season games and came out and had a record breaking year.

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1.) I've already shown that no Patriots veteran signing of significance has been forced to catch onto the offense as quickly as you're demanding it of Johnson.

2.) Johnson hasn't missed many games, at all, in his career. Branch misses games all the time. For that alone, the signing would be a good one even if the two were identical players.

3.) I wanted more of an intermediate/deep receiver, but Johnson should at least serve as a Givens type with regards to the number of times he stretches the field via use of the deep routes.

4.) Even Galloway got until game 2 of the regular season.

5.) Moss had months of practices and access to the playbook and film.

Deus Irae said:

1.) I've already shown that no Patriots veteran signing of significance has been forced to catch onto the offense as quickly as you're demanding it of Johnson.

2.) Johnson hasn't missed many games, at all, in his career. Branch misses games all the time. For that alone, the signing would be a good one even if the two were identical players.

3.) I wanted more of an intermediate/deep receiver, but Johnson should at least serve as a Givens type with regards to the number of times he stretches the field via use of the deep routes.

4.) Even Galloway got until game 2 of the regular season.

5.) Moss had months of practices and access to the playbook and film.

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If Moss can give me Given's type of production, I will write him a thank you card and deliver it to Gilette personally. However, the thought of Chad being as tough as Givens is kind of laughable.

Truth is, the entire team is not as tough as it used to be. That, my friends, is why they fall short in the playoff's.

Garbanza said:

If Moss can give me Given's type of production, I will write him a thank you card and deliver it to Gilette personally. However, the thought of Chad being as tough as Givens is kind of laughable.

Truth is, the entire team is not as tough as it used to be. That, my friends, is why they fall short in the playoff's.

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Why quote my post if you're not going to respond to it?

Also, when the Cowboys won 3 of 4 titles, they didn't lose the 4th, in the middle, because they suddenly lost toughness that was regained by the next year. Other teams have talent, and you've got to beat that talent.

2007: Brady, Neal, TEs injured
2008: Brady lost for season
2009: Welker, many others, injured, special teams struggles
2010: 2 unforced errors changed the game


Those aren't toughness issues.

Deus Irae said:

Why quote my post if you're not going to respond to it?

Also, when the Cowboys won 3 of 4 titles, they didn't lose the 4th, in the middle, because they suddenly lost toughness that was regained by the next year. Other teams have talent, and you've got to beat that talent.

2007: Brady, Neal, TEs injured
2008: Brady lost for season
2009: Welker, many others, injured, special teams struggles
2010: 2 unforced errors changed the game


Those aren't toughness issues.

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I did respond. Guess it did not meet your lofty expectations! I now understand how Ocho feel (sniffle, sniffle.)

Dude, I know you think you know it all. I do too sometimes. It's cool. But please, do not argue that this team has not lost a bit of it's tough edge. It has. It's obvious. Watch the games. The only tough guys on the team are Mankins and Wilfork.

Garbanza said:

I did respond. Guess it did not meet your lofty expectations! I now understand how Ocho feel (sniffle, sniffle.)

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Your response was not a response to anything I said. Go back and look again. Talking about Moss matching Givens' production? Come on.

Garbanza said:

Dude, I know you think you know it all. I do too sometimes. It's cool. But please, do not argue that this team has not lost a bit of it's tough edge. It has. It's obvious. Watch the games. The only tough guys on the team are Mankins and Wilfork.

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I don't think I know it all. I'm all to familiar with the enormity of what I don't know. That has nothing to do with your argument. You claimed that it was lost toughness that's been the reason the Patriots haven't won in the playoffs recently. That's just not the case. Hell, it was toughness that had Brady on the field against the Giants in the first place.

Ochostinko is a bust of the highest order. Complete waste of a pick for the trade...if he and we are lucky he will be on the same page as brady by year end. Do we have a year to waste on this tweeting guy? Hmmm.....survey says NO.

I say run a lot of 3 TE sets where you only have one WR...beat the daylights out of the other team...except we have a small tiny, pipsqueak line, OK check that. I'm not sure what to do.

Lighth at guard makes a lot of sense though. GIven his performance at LT, I don't think he gets to say where he plays.