The sad state of the Pats Safeties

spacecrime said:

That would indeed be a stretch. A 14-2 record tells me that no positions sucked. That some positions could be upgraded is evidenced by the fact the record wasn't 19-0.

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I think it is certainly possible for a team to go 14-3 (or even 19-0) and still have areas suck. I watched some pretty sucky nickle and ILB coverage last year. I just don't necessarily think everything needs to be solved by signing the most expensive FA or trading up in the draft.

If the team to improve on defense,we need ONE of those safeties to step up and become a leader-type player on the back 4 .... This team has not had a leader back there since Harrison left and it shows the past few years with that gaping hole that has yet to be filled.

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

If the team to improve on defense,we need ONE of those safeties to step up and become a leader-type player on the back 4 .... This team has not had a leader back there since Harrison left and it shows the past few years with that gaping hole that has yet to be filled.

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Agreed. But in order to lead, you actually have to have experience, know the defense your own self, and be able to relay that information to your teammates.

Deus Irae said:

I said he was on the team. I didn't make any claims about playing time or impact. If you don't think that being on an undefeated team will make you think your career was starting off pretty darned well, I don't know what to tell you.

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The Pierre Woods analogy someone else used sums this up perfectly. Riding the 07' teams coat tails doesn't make Meriweather any better than it does Chad Jackson.

Deus Irae said:

Pro Bowl is determined by 3 groups, 2 of which supposedly know the game pretty darned well. It can be a bit of a joke with regards to guys who've been there forever, and with regards to guys who get there because 5 others bow out, but it's a barometer, nonetheless. It's got huge flaws, but Meriweather has made it twice in four seasons. It shows a level of respect for his game, whether you care to acknowledge that or not.

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The players aren't exactly the best for rankings, the top 100 they've created on NFLNetwork is a perfect example. Some of those ratings are absolutely inane, 13 WRs better than Greg Jennings? Give me a break.

Deus Irae said:

Power Rankings: Top 10 NFL safeties - AFC North Blog - ESPN

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I'll disagree with those rankings for the aforementioned reasons.

Deus Irae said:

If you don't know the play, you generally don't know where Meriweather is supposed to be.

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You're right, but I do see him showing up late to plays and missing tackles left and right. I don't think its a coincidence that since he's taken over that the underbelly of this defense between the hashes is a gold mine for opposing QBs.

Deus Irae said:

I believe that Meriweather is what he is. He's what I'd call a second/third tier safety, which currently puts him in the top 10. I make no claim as to whether that's more because of his talent or a down cycle at the position. That just happens to mean that he's a far better player than you give him credit for. You should feel free to take a look at all the safeties taken since 2006. Other than Eric Berry, who was a rookie, none of them are clearly better than Meriweather.

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There might be no better safeties, but recent failures doesn't dismiss past failures. Meriweather doesn't suddenly become a better player because of the fact that drafting a safety is difficult.

Deus Irae said:

You're the one talking about the depth chart and slotting down 2 spots, when it's clear that only 1 player was out of the chart and that a rookie served as a more than adequate replacement for that lost player, so if anyone is trying to play a semantic game, it's you.

The problem wasn't a depth chart issue. The problem was that players failed, even though most were in their expected place on that chart.

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Actually none were in their slotted place on the depth chart because the #1 was gone moving everyone up a notch before even considering the turn to drivel of arguing whether a player being relied on dropping down the chart is significantly different than an injury.

s3antana5757 said:

Agreed. But in order to lead, you actually have to have experience, know the defense your own self, and be able to relay that information to your teammates.

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James Sanders says hi

I just don't think that Sanders has 'IT'....to have 'IT' you need to show your leadership and be better than average at the position...while Sanders is a serviceable safety,he has never been more than average.

ctpatsfan77 said:

IIRC, Ventrone was always on the PS and never the 53, so I see no reason to think he's "gone" just yet.

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That's a very good point, and an obvious oversight on my part---apologies, as I wasn't thinking about the PS.

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

James Sanders says hi

I just don't think that Sanders has 'IT'....to have 'IT' you need to show your leadership and be better than average at the position...while Sanders is a serviceable safety,he has never been more than average.

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That's fair, but at the same time Sanders is an important part of the group as a whole, particularly for his knowledge of the system, leadership, and intelligence. I think that a lot of teams wouldn't mind having him as their 3rd safety. His ability to start in a pinch without too much fall back is leagues above the next in line..say Page for example.

Your right, his skill set is 'average,' but what he adds in other areas is what makes him a good '53' man player.

We've certainly gotten by with worse. There's a lot of 'average' type players around the NFL who add to their teams' chemistry every year, and James Sanders is one of those guys here, in my opinion.

I wouldn't cry if we lost him, but I do think he plays an important role here, and has learned well, and gotten better in certain areas in the past few yrs.

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

James Sanders says hi

I just don't think that Sanders has 'IT'....to have 'IT' you need to show your leadership and be better than average at the position...while Sanders is a serviceable safety,he has never been more than average.

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I agree with the assessment as of now. However, I am curious if he actually improves. Hear me out. Safety is a position that is less physically demanding than say CB and is instead more cerebral (schematically). As safeties mature into their later years (going into year 10 and beyond even) they see the field better and can predict where the ball is going (and where it's not), which is an effect of experience. When the guy is new to the league, it's difficult for them to make calculated risks (i.e. BM). He's by no means a physical specimen of an athlete, but I wonder about how his experience may materialize into better play (he's entering his 7th season).

When we first acquired Rodney Harrison, he was in his 9th or 10th season (drafted in '94 I want to say). Some were saying he should retire (in San Diego) and he instead signed with us for 6 years. Someone else said it--we acquired him at his peak, which was in these more mature years.

Sanders doesn't have 'It' but I wouldn't be surprised to see him more involved in plays like the game-ending interception of Peyton Manning. He's learning where to be because he's seen it all before, and by most accounts he supposed to be a hardworker. Not all safeties mature into your Rodney Harrison's of the world, and Rodney was likely better in his early years, but it's something to keep an eye on with Sanders. I'm not suggesting anything eyepopping, but a gradual improvement when we otherwise expect that the player is-who-he-is at that point in his career.


Just some musings.

patriot lifer said:

I agree with the assessment as of now. However, I am curious if he actually improves. Hear me out. Safety is a position that is less physically demanding than say CB and is instead more cerebral (schematically). As safeties mature into their later years (going into year 10 and beyond even) they see the field better and can predict where the ball is going (and where it's not), which is an effect of experience. When the guy is new to the league, it's difficult for them to make calculated risks (i.e. BM). He's by no means a physical specimen of an athlete, but I wonder about how his experience may materialize into better play (he's entering his 7th season).

When we first acquired Rodney Harrison, he was in his 9th or 10th season (drafted in '94 I want to say). Some were saying he should retire (in San Diego) and he instead signed with us for 6 years. Someone else said it--we acquired him at his peak, which was in these more mature years.

Sanders doesn't have 'It' but I wouldn't be surprised to see him more involved in plays like the game-ending interception of Peyton Manning. He's learning where to be because he's seen it all before, and by most accounts he supposed to be a hardworker. Not all safeties mature into your Rodney Harrison's of the world, and Rodney was likely better in his early years, but it's something to keep an eye on with Sanders. I'm not suggesting anything eyepopping, but a gradual improvement when we otherwise expect that the player is-who-he-is at that point in his career.


Just some musings.

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I don't recall many safeties starting to dominate when he has alot more experience. Harrison,Lynch,Dawkins and those guys were monsters and could still play in their old age just because they were very intelligent players to begin with.

Sanders could improve but i doubt he will ever be more than a solid contributor.

Anyways..we're loaded on DB's and i feel pretty confident going into next year with those guys. Front 7 will be the bigger issue.

patriot lifer said:

I agree with the assessment as of now. However, I am curious if he actually improves. Hear me out. Safety is a position that is less physically demanding than say CB and is instead more cerebral (schematically). As safeties mature into their later years (going into year 10 and beyond even) they see the field better and can predict where the ball is going (and where it's not), which is an effect of experience. When the guy is new to the league, it's difficult for them to make calculated risks (i.e. BM). He's by no means a physical specimen of an athlete, but I wonder about how his experience may materialize into better play (he's entering his 7th season).

When we first acquired Rodney Harrison, he was in his 9th or 10th season (drafted in '94 I want to say). Some were saying he should retire (in San Diego) and he instead signed with us for 6 years. Someone else said it--we acquired him at his peak, which was in these more mature years.

Sanders doesn't have 'It' but I wouldn't be surprised to see him more involved in plays like the game-ending interception of Peyton Manning. He's learning where to be because he's seen it all before, and by most accounts he supposed to be a hardworker. Not all safeties mature into your Rodney Harrison's of the world, and Rodney was likely better in his early years, but it's something to keep an eye on with Sanders. I'm not suggesting anything eyepopping, but a gradual improvement when we otherwise expect that the player is-who-he-is at that point in his career.

Just some musings.

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No reason why not. He had his best season last year with a rather green defense around him and he's still on the right side of 30.

Get a pass rush and all the S/CBs will look alot better

borg said:

Get a pass rush and all the S/CBs will look alot better

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Or get quality S/CBs and make the pass rush look a lot better

Professor Frink said:

Or get quality S/CBs and make the pass rush look a lot better

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It is interesting how BB will see things different than the fans. In 2003 we all point to Big Ted's arrival as a key fix to NE's prior year run D woes. What is forgotten is that Ted missed 8 games with minimal impact. Warren was a factor, but forgotten was that Dan Klecko played as many minutes as Ty did while Ted was out.

Where NE really fixed the run defese was by turning over 3/4 (4/5 if you add the top CB backup) of the secondary. Gap filling by the safeties and edge support from the CBs was what BB fixed while we were all pointing to the savior on the DL.

Oswlek said:

It is interesting how BB will see things different than the fans. In 2003 we all point to Big Ted's arrival as a key fix to NE's prior year run D woes. What is forgotten is that Ted missed 8 games with minimal impact. Warren was a factor, but forgotten was that Dan Klecko played as many minutes as Ty did while Ted was out.

Where NE really fixed the run defese was by turning over 3/4 (4/5 if you add the top CB backup) of the secondary. Gap filling by the safeties and edge support from the CBs was what BB fixed while we were all pointing to the savior on the DL.

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Agreed. Ty Law and Tyrone Poole both had very good years in 03 (Law probably played better than any other corner that year) which allowed BB to consistently put Harrison in the box. This had a huge impact on our run D.

If McCourty can follow up on his rookie campaign and Bodden comes back healthy I think we're going to see something similar with Chung playing near the line of scrimmage.

patriot lifer said:

I agree with the assessment as of now. However, I am curious if he actually improves. Hear me out. Safety is a position that is less physically demanding than say CB and is instead more cerebral (schematically). As safeties mature into their later years (going into year 10 and beyond even) they see the field better and can predict where the ball is going (and where it's not), which is an effect of experience. When the guy is new to the league, it's difficult for them to make calculated risks (i.e. BM). He's by no means a physical specimen of an athlete, but I wonder about how his experience may materialize into better play (he's entering his 7th season).

When we first acquired Rodney Harrison, he was in his 9th or 10th season (drafted in '94 I want to say). Some were saying he should retire (in San Diego) and he instead signed with us for 6 years. Someone else said it--we acquired him at his peak, which was in these more mature years.

Sanders doesn't have 'It' but I wouldn't be surprised to see him more involved in plays like the game-ending interception of Peyton Manning. He's learning where to be because he's seen it all before, and by most accounts he supposed to be a hardworker. Not all safeties mature into your Rodney Harrison's of the world, and Rodney was likely better in his early years, but it's something to keep an eye on with Sanders. I'm not suggesting anything eyepopping, but a gradual improvement when we otherwise expect that the player is-who-he-is at that point in his career.


Just some musings.

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This sounds like an argument for keeping Meriweather if you ask me (not that I want to let go of Sanders). Meriweather's deficiencies (taking angles / freelancing) should get better with experience

ay-yo said:

This sounds like an argument for keeping Meriweather if you ask me (not that I want to let go of Sanders). Meriweather's deficiencies (taking angles / freelancing) should get better with experience

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Yes and no. A guy who, in his 4th season under "do your job" BB who still needs a benching as a reminder not to freelance clearly is missing something.

BB has prenty of tolerance for mistakes as long as you don't repeat the same ones. Meriweather has "repeat offender" written all over him.

ay-yo said:

This sounds like an argument for keeping Meriweather if you ask me (not that I want to let go of Sanders). Meriweather's deficiencies (taking angles / freelancing) should get better with experience

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Well, it's an argument for keeping any safety for that matter. But we can agree that there is a difference between guys like Harrison and Darren Sharpe who did in fact keep improving while others plateaued earlier in their careers. We know that Sanders is a hardworker so it's something to keep an eye on for this season.

In addition, I mention it with Sanders because a lot of us assume "he-is-what-he-is" at this point. I'm bringing up another possibility that not everyone has considered (and this is in response to the original post that our safeties stink).

To the point of BM, I don't know if he'll ever be able to become a better tackler. He just seems to haphazardly flail his body at opponents in the hopes that they're knocked off their feet (and that he'll connect in the first place). At least Sanders has that down.

patriot lifer said:

Well, it's an argument for keeping any safety for that matter. But we can agree that there is a difference between guys like Harrison and Darren Sharpe who did in fact keep improving while others plateaued earlier in their careers. We know that Sanders is a hardworker so it's something to keep an eye on for this season.

In addition, I mention it with Sanders because a lot of us assume "he-is-what-he-is" at this point. I'm bringing up another possibility that not everyone has considered (and this is in response to the original post that our safeties stink).

To the point of BM, I don't know if he'll ever be able to become a better tackler. He just seems to haphazardly flail his body at opponents in the hopes that they're knocked off their feet (and that he'll connect in the first place). At least Sanders has that down.

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Oswlek said:

No reason why not. He had his best season last year with a rather green defense around him and he's still on the right side of 30.

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Good point about Sanders guys, no doubt.

Bm is over rated but he's not a terrible player. He was a beast in 09 and I guess he got over confident this year. If he gets his head on straight he'll be a perennial pro bowler(and I mean, deservingly). As for Chung, he looks like a star in the making. His coverage could use some work. Safety, definitely is not a major concern imo. I think our front 7 is where we should be a bit more concerned. Haven't sacked Peyton Manning since like 07 . Anyways just my 2 cents.