The sad state of the Pats Safeties

Chung is a liability as a nickle defensive back currently, I think everyone will agree to that but my greater point on the Meriweather hate is that Meriweather has been in the league 4 years and still lacks fundamental skills that would allow him to have a potentially good career. He's consistently out of place, takes horrible angles in pursuit and can't tackle to save his life. His attempts to ballhawk and be a hard hitter (he brings shame to this word) are laughable at best.

supafly said:

I believe that Ventrone is on his way out, but I could be wrong.

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IIRC, Ventrone was always on the PS and never the 53, so I see no reason to think he's "gone" just yet.

Chung or BM will never be Rodney Harrison, but are more than adequate.

With our improving secondary will only get better...

Brady2Welker said:

Chung is a liability as a nickle defensive back currently, I think everyone will agree to that but my greater point on the Meriweather hate is that Meriweather has been in the league 4 years and still lacks fundamental skills that would allow him to have a potentially good career. He's consistently out of place, takes horrible angles in pursuit and can't tackle to save his life. His attempts to ballhawk and be a hard hitter (he brings shame to this word) are laughable at best.

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As much as he has some inadequacies he is voted to the probowl by peers and coaches, so they have to be seeing something.

Oswlek said:

Why not? The coaches clearly went into the season hoping Butler would step into Bodden's shoes. When he didn't, that pushed Arrington into the #2 spot (two spots higher than he was during the early parts of camp). Wilhite, being one spot behind Arrington was also moved up. Not sure how that is inaccurate in any way.

As for Mcourty, sure he replaced Bodden and had a hell of a season, but his play had no impacted on the depth chart behind him. Arrington still found himself at #2 when the plan was for him to be at #4. :confused2:

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You are trying to claim that a problem was players being 2 spots out of line when they weren't. Just using Arrington as an example, he was behind Butler on the chart. Butler crapped out, and Arrington stepped in. That's exactly how a depth chart is supposed to work, and that's a player failure, not a depth chart issue.

sbpatfan said:

The funny thing is Chung gave up a hell of a lot more TDs and bad plays than Meriweather yet everyone is ready to hang Meri and get on their knees for Chung.

I like 'em both, and think Chung has more potential. Plus he brings a certain fire to the defense at times. But Meriweather was clearly the best safety this team had last year.

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Brandon had deep protection, Chung was manning up on the opponents slot receiver. Trying to compare their coverage with those completely different responsibilities is a fool's errand.

Deus Irae said:

You are trying to claim that a problem was players being 2 spots out of line when they weren't. Just using Arrington as an example, he was behind Butler on the chart. Butler crapped out, and Arrington stepped in. That's exactly how a depth chart is supposed to work, and that's a player failure, not a depth chart issue.

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You are playing a semantic game that is completely irrelevent. It doesn't matter why Arrington was 2nd instead of 4th, all that matters is that he was.

That said, now that we've moved into the offseason, the why becomes more important, because that will determine the course of action for correction.

Brady2Welker said:

Chung is a liability as a nickle defensive back currently, I think everyone will agree to that but my greater point on the Meriweather hate is that Meriweather has been in the league 4 years and still lacks fundamental skills that would allow him to have a potentially good career. He's consistently out of place, takes horrible angles in pursuit and can't tackle to save his life. His attempts to ballhawk and be a hard hitter (he brings shame to this word) are laughable at best.

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In his first four NFL seasons, Meriweather has been on an undefeated regular season team, has been a Pro Bowler twice, and is considered among the 10 best at his position by many. How your opinion that he's not already having a "potentially good career" is valid in your mind with those being the facts is something for you to ponder.

spacecrime said:

Have to enjoy a post that uses arbitrage.

On topic, Meriweather played more minutes than any other Pats safety last year, and Chung was up there in minutes played also. Result was that the Pats went 14-2. Doesn't that point to the efficacy of the Pats safety use and rotation?

Sometimes I think people want all-Pros at all 22 starting postions, and probowlers as backups.

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I don't want all-pros at every position but I do want every guy who steps onto the field to be dependable, to "do your job" if you will. Brandon got better after the Heap play, but he still isn't as good as he should be, or as good as people around the league seem to think he is.

BTW, stretching to 14-2 logic could say that no position is in need of an upgrade, which we all know isn't true. And from my vantage point, the secondary and ILB coverage were the weakest points on the entire team.

The current Patriots secondary has the potential to be the deepest and overall best in Patriots history, even though there is the absence of a Super-star CB like Haynes, Clayborn, or Law. Maybe McCourty could become one though. The Pats have had some great safeties from Harrison through Milloy, Fox, James but seldom this many good ones, a the same time.

The great Patriot secondaries of the past never had the talented depth that this one does. It is young, fast, can cover and hit. None of the starters are stone handed either. The probable fifth CB is not a hopeless scrub, regardless of whether he is Arrington, Butler or Wilhite. The fifth Safety, McGowan, was a starter for both the Pats and Bears. Just how bad can the secondary be?

Deus Irae said:

In his first four NFL seasons, Meriweather has been on an undefeated regular season team, has been a Pro Bowler twice, and is considered among the 10 best at his position by many. How your opinion that he's not already having a "potentially good career" is valid in your mind with those being the facts is something for you to ponder.

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Giving Meriweather credit for 2007 is a major stretch. NE clearly drafted him to give Geno and Rodney more rest and he was a complete flop in that regard. NE didn't even trust Brandon to set foot on the field for more than a handful of snaps until very late in the season, and those felt like "come on, kid, do something" trial snaps.

Oswlek said:

You are playing a semantic game that is completely irrelevent. It doesn't matter why Arrington was 2nd instead of 4th, all that matters is that he was.

That said, now that we've moved into the offseason, the why becomes more important, because that will determine the course of action for correction.

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You're the one talking about the depth chart and slotting down 2 spots, when it's clear that only 1 player was out of the chart and that a rookie served as a more than adequate replacement for that lost player, so if anyone is trying to play a semantic game, it's you.

The problem wasn't a depth chart issue. The problem was that players failed, even though most were in their expected place on that chart.

Oswlek said:

Giving Meriweather credit for 2007 is a major stretch. NE clearly drafted him to give Geno and Rodney more rest and he was a complete flop in that regard. NE didn't even trust Brandon to set foot on the field for more than a handful of snaps until very late in the season, and those felt like "come on, kid, do something" trial snaps.

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In response to someone belittling his career, I noted that he played on a team that went 16-0 in the regular season. How is my pointing that out a major stretch?

Deus Irae said:

In his first four NFL seasons, Meriweather has been on an undefeated regular season team, has been a Pro Bowler twice, and is considered among the 10 best at his position by many. How your opinion that he's not already having a "potentially good career" is valid in your mind with those being the facts is something for you to ponder.

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- Brandon Meriweather's contribution to the 2007 defense was not substantial

- The Pro Bowl is a general mockery of NFL rankings, it's based almost exclusively on player popularity whether merited or not. That is, unless you think Matt Light played better than Sebastian Vollmer in the 2010 season as he was getting abused by the likes of Atwane Barnes.

- I doubt hes considered top 10 at his positions considering the large amount of times hes been benched by his own coaching staff for poor play. Had the safeties been healthier this year, I doubt he would've seen as much playing time as he did.


Brandon Meriweather is out of position more frequently than most other safeties in the league and lacks fundamental safety skills. His want to make the highlight play leaves him completely out of position several times a game, he has no feel for his zone defense, yielding absolutely atrocious angles and has some of the worst tackling technique I've seen in a while.

In short, if you believe Meriweather is good because of the LOL-bowl as it should be called, then there's no point defending my argument because the Pro bowl is pretty inaccurate at pointing out who the best players are in the league.

Deus Irae said:

You're the one talking about the depth chart and slotting down 2 spots, when it's clear that only 1 player was out of the chart and that a rookie served as a more than adequate replacement for that lost player, so if anyone is trying to play a semantic game, it's you.

The problem wasn't a depth chart issue. The problem was that players failed, even though most were in their expected place on that chart.

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I said Arrington played two spots above where he shoud have, which is simply stating the facts. You are the one who introduced depth charts and the like.

Brady2Welker said:

- Brandon Meriweather's contribution to the 2007 defense was not substantial

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I said he was on the team. I didn't make any claims about playing time or impact. If you don't think that being on an undefeated team will make you think your career was starting off pretty darned well, I don't know what to tell you.

Brady2Welker said:

- The Pro Bowl is a general mockery of NFL rankings, it's based almost exclusively on player popularity whether merited or not. That is, unless you think Matt Light played better than Sebastian Vollmer in the 2010 season as he was getting abused by the likes of Atwane Barnes.

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Pro Bowl is determined by 3 groups, 2 of which supposedly know the game pretty darned well. It can be a bit of a joke with regards to guys who've been there forever, and with regards to guys who get there because 5 others bow out, but it's a barometer, nonetheless. It's got huge flaws, but Meriweather has made it twice in four seasons. It shows a level of respect for his game, whether you care to acknowledge that or not.

Brady2Welker said:

- I doubt hes considered top 10 at his positions considering the large amount of times hes been benched by his own coaching staff for poor play. Had the safeties been healthier this year, I doubt he would've seen as much playing time as he did.

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Power Rankings: Top 10 NFL safeties - AFC North Blog - ESPN

Brady2Welker said:

Brandon Meriweather is out of position more frequently than most other safeties in the league and lacks fundamental safety skills. His want to make the highlight play leaves him completely out of position several times a game, he has no feel for his zone defense, yielding absolutely atrocious angles and has some of the worst tackling technique I've seen in a while.

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If you don't know the play, you generally don't know where Meriweather is supposed to be.

Brady2Welker said:

In short, if you believe Meriweather is good because of the LOL-bowl as it should be called, then there's no point defending my argument because the Pro bowl is pretty inaccurate at pointing out who the best players are in the league.

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I believe that Meriweather is what he is. He's what I'd call a second/third tier safety, which currently puts him in the top 10. I make no claim as to whether that's more because of his talent or a down cycle at the position. That just happens to mean that he's a far better player than you give him credit for. You should feel free to take a look at all the safeties taken since 2006. Other than Eric Berry, who was a rookie, none of them are clearly better than Meriweather.

Oswlek said:

I said Arrington played two spots above where he shoud have, which is simply stating the facts. You are the one who introduced depth charts and the like.

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:bricks:

When you're talking "spots above", you're talking depth charts.

Deus Irae said:

:bricks:

When you're talking "spots above", you're talking depth charts.

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Dude, this isn't that hard.

You said:

Unless BB changes his mind about Dowling, and has him cross-training as a rookie, someone's probably going to be playing elsewhere in 2011, and you can be pretty darned sure that it's going to be one of the bottom 3 from last year (Arrington/Butler/Wilhite), because they weren't good enough.

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Read: Arrington sucked and he might be gone.

This was my response:

Bodden's absence along with Butler's disappearance pushed everyone two spots higher than they should have been last year. That said, the time helped Arrington develop into a solid #4-#3 guy. That, along with his special teams makes Arrington a roster lock, IMO.

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Read: Arrington sucked as a starter, but proved capable of being a solid dime back, which is more than enough to be assured a roster spot considering his ST prowess.

Very simple.

Oswlek said:

BTW, stretching to 14-2 logic could say that no position is in need of an upgrade, which we all know isn't true.

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That would indeed be a stretch. A 14-2 record tells me that no positions sucked. That some positions could be upgraded is evidenced by the fact the record wasn't 19-0.

Deus Irae said:

In response to someone belittling his career, I noted that he played on a team that went 16-0 in the regular season. How is my pointing that out a major stretch?

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Yes, which is misleading considering Meriweather had virtually nothing to do with that 16-0 season. Do you give Pierre Woods credit for NE's success that year?