Why picking Solder will define BB's personel moves

Its was suggested in another thread that BB's trading for future picks was always advantageous but I suggest it isnt. What trading for future picks does is get both more AND younger players on an already-overhauled 14-2 team. Follow my logic...

I am not related nor the biggest fan of Matt Light. Our LT has been here quite a while and has been the benefit of our style of offense and has made a few Pro Bowls because of it. He has been a good fit, low key, understated guy who hasnt been out to break any banks lately. Now he is a unrestricted FA watching the draft on TV to see us draft Solder to basically replace him. Light is one of just a few players that were here in the Super Bowl years. IMHO part of "team building" is mixing youth with experience and rewarding the vets like Light even if they are slightly past their prime. This week he will be listed between 60-70 of the best players in the whole friggin league as judged by his peers(top 5%). There are a few positions that continuity and loyalty should be rewarded and LT is one of them especially if he can still play!

Now there are alot of people who can argue that losing Light means we get younger, stronger, cheaper etc...what we cant see nor measure is how losing a leader in the locker room and a model citizen-Patriot is influencing the mass of youth on this team. Losing Light sends a clear message to any potential FAs that loyalty isnt rewarded. Keeping Light sends our highest draft pick in a few years to the bench as our #3 T and blocking TE!! Thats not going to happen.

Now the reason Solder will define BB is simply because we didnt win SBs with BB draft picks. Our SB teams were the grizzled old vets who were old and slow, a bunch of ragtag players off the scrap heap etc. BB can coach them! With the remake of this team we are now one of the youngest teams in the league and BB hasnt demonstrated the same success with his draft picks. Having and paying Seymour(yes, a BB pick) would have won us more games, likely playoff games, in the last 2 years. Period. Would it have cost us a few players at the end of the roster....YES. Solder wouldnt be here. But those players at the end of our roster now are guys like Wilhite, Brace, Ornberger who in years past would have been replaced by a JAG like Otis Smith/Anthony Pleasant/Hochstein. Those type of JAGs have something in common that BB drafted/coached players dont......MOTIVATION. There is simply no motivation from the youth on this team!! There is something to be said for the heiarchy system paying stars and sprinkling in JAGs, it keeps the "middle class" hungry. I suggest so many 2nd-3rd round picks only expands the "middle class" and wont be fully rewarding those that do make it to stardom.... which is particularly difficult to define on a BB team. The guys in the locker room will see this first. At what point in this evolution does BB lose his locker room because of it?

jeffbiologist said:

Its was suggested in another thread that BB's trading for future picks was always advantageous but I suggest it isnt. What trading for future picks does is get both more AND younger players on an already-overhauled 14-2 team. Follow my logic...

I am not related nor the biggest fan of Matt Light. Our LT has been here quite a while and has been the benefit of our style of offense and has made a few Pro Bowls because of it. He has been a good fit, low key, understated guy who hasnt been out to break any banks lately. Now he is a unrestricted FA watching the draft on TV to see us draft Solder to basically replace him. Light is one of just a few players that were here in the Super Bowl years. IMHO part of "team building" is mixing youth with experience and rewarding the vets like Light even if they are slightly past their prime. This week he will be listed between 60-70 of the best players in the whole friggin league as judged by his peers(top 5%). There are a few positions that continuity and loyalty should be rewarded and LT is one of them especially if he can still play!
Now there are alot of people who can argue that losing Light means we get younger, stronger, cheaper etc...what we cant see nor measure is how losing a leader in the locker room and a model citizen-Patriot is influencing the mass of youth on this team. Losing Light sends a clear message to any potential FAs that loyalty isnt rewarded. Keeping Light sends our highest draft pick in a few years to the bench as our #3 T and blocking TE!! Thats not going to happen.
Now the reason Solder will define BB is simply because we didnt win SBs with BB draft picks. Our SB teams were the grizzled old vets who were old and slow, a bunch of ragtag players off the scrap heap etc. BB can coach them! With the remake of this team we are now one of the youngest teams in the league and BB hasnt demonstrated the same success with his draft picks. Having and paying Seymour(yes, a BB pick) would have won us more games, likely playoff games, in the last 2 years. Period. Would it have cost us a few players at the end of the roster....YES. Solder wouldnt be here. But those players at the end of our roster now are guys like Wilhite, Brace, Ornberger who in years past would have been replaced by a JAG like Otis Smith/Anthony Pleasant/Hochstein. Those type of JAGs have something in common that BB drafted/coached players dont......MOTIVATION. There is simply no motivation from the youth on this team!! There is something to be said for the heiarchy system paying stars and sprinkling in JAGs, it keeps the "middle class" hungry. I suggest so many 2nd-3rd round picks only expands the "middle class" and wont be fully rewarding those that do make it to stardom.... which is particularly difficult to define on a BB team. The guys in the locker room will see this first. At what point in this evolution does BB lose his locker room because of it?

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Syntax Error.

I find it hillarious when people say, "he didn't win the SB with draft picks" as if recognizing talent in the FA market is supposed to be some big knock or something. And when you win a SB in your 2nd year, it's hard to have drafted enough players to entirely turn over a roster.

But, to the larger point, something tells me that these guys had an impact on NE's SB winning teams

Brady
Seymour
Wilfork
Warren
Branch
Givens
Light
Koppen
Geno
Asante

That's 10 or 22 starting positions that were pure draft picks.

Oh, one more thing. OT was by far the most needy position on the entire team. You had one sure thing, one guy who is coming off an injury who is a likely execution target, one older FA and two nobodies.

If you don't like Solder the player that is fine, but chastising the position selection is one of the most idiotic things I've ever read on this site.

Ditto. And want to add that you keep harping on the Seymour trade...You apparently forget that, either due to injuries, motivation, or being malcontent, Richard Seymour didn't exactly play like an All Pro many games over his last 3 years here.

jeffbiologist said:

Its was suggested in another thread that BB's trading for future picks was always advantageous but I suggest it isnt. What trading for future picks does is get both more AND younger players on an already-overhauled 14-2 team. Follow my logic...

I am not related nor the biggest fan of Matt Light. Our LT has been here quite a while and has been the benefit of our style of offense and has made a few Pro Bowls because of it. He has been a good fit, low key, understated guy who hasnt been out to break any banks lately. Now he is a unrestricted FA watching the draft on TV to see us draft Solder to basically replace him. Light is one of just a few players that were here in the Super Bowl years. IMHO part of "team building" is mixing youth with experience and rewarding the vets like Light even if they are slightly past their prime. This week he will be listed between 60-70 of the best players in the whole friggin league as judged by his peers(top 5%). There are a few positions that continuity and loyalty should be rewarded and LT is one of them especially if he can still play!
Now there are alot of people who can argue that losing Light means we get younger, stronger, cheaper etc...what we cant see nor measure is how losing a leader in the locker room and a model citizen-Patriot is influencing the mass of youth on this team. Losing Light sends a clear message to any potential FAs that loyalty isnt rewarded. Keeping Light sends our highest draft pick in a few years to the bench as our #3 T and blocking TE!! Thats not going to happen.
Now the reason Solder will define BB is simply because we didnt win SBs with BB draft picks. Our SB teams were the grizzled old vets who were old and slow, a bunch of ragtag players off the scrap heap etc. BB can coach them! With the remake of this team we are now one of the youngest teams in the league and BB hasnt demonstrated the same success with his draft picks. Having and paying Seymour(yes, a BB pick) would have won us more games, likely playoff games, in the last 2 years. Period. Would it have cost us a few players at the end of the roster....YES. Solder wouldnt be here. But those players at the end of our roster now are guys like Wilhite, Brace, Ornberger who in years past would have been replaced by a JAG like Otis Smith/Anthony Pleasant/Hochstein. Those type of JAGs have something in common that BB drafted/coached players dont......MOTIVATION. There is simply no motivation from the youth on this team!! There is something to be said for the heiarchy system paying stars and sprinkling in JAGs, it keeps the "middle class" hungry. I suggest so many 2nd-3rd round picks only expands the "middle class" and wont be fully rewarding those that do make it to stardom.... which is particularly difficult to define on a BB team. The guys in the locker room will see this first. At what point in this evolution does BB lose his locker room because of it?

Click to expand...

An example of the tenuousness of the locker room:
When Brandon Meriweather is the elder statesman of your defensive backfield,
you're in big trouble.

Edit: Whoops; I forgot James Sanders. Must've been a freudian slip.
Too bad that Stomper doesn't have Sanders' intangibles; then he would've truly earned his Pro Bowl nod.

jeffbiologist said:

Its was suggested in another thread that BB's trading for future picks was always advantageous but I suggest it isnt. What trading for future picks does is get both more AND younger players on an already-overhauled 14-2 team. Follow my logic...

I am not related nor the biggest fan of Matt Light. Our LT has been here quite a while and has been the benefit of our style of offense and has made a few Pro Bowls because of it. He has been a good fit, low key, understated guy who hasnt been out to break any banks lately. Now he is a unrestricted FA watching the draft on TV to see us draft Solder to basically replace him. Light is one of just a few players that were here in the Super Bowl years. IMHO part of "team building" is mixing youth with experience and rewarding the vets like Light even if they are slightly past their prime. This week he will be listed between 60-70 of the best players in the whole friggin league as judged by his peers(top 5%). There are a few positions that continuity and loyalty should be rewarded and LT is one of them especially if he can still play!
Now there are alot of people who can argue that losing Light means we get younger, stronger, cheaper etc...what we cant see nor measure is how losing a leader in the locker room and a model citizen-Patriot is influencing the mass of youth on this team. Losing Light sends a clear message to any potential FAs that loyalty isnt rewarded. Keeping Light sends our highest draft pick in a few years to the bench as our #3 T and blocking TE!! Thats not going to happen.

Click to expand...

First of all, Light's last contract was pretty lucrative. To say he wasn't rewarded for his loyalty shows that you didn't really look into it.

Mayo was a higher draft pick than Solder.

Putting Solder on the bench and working him in rotation wouldn't be a bad thing. That's what the Pats did with Vollmer. They also started to do that with Light when Light was a rookie.

Also, if Light is the one who chose to go to free agency this time around instead of signing an extension. He said so himself. So, it's a bit premature to say that the Pats haven't shown him any loyalty. Not to mention that it's Light's decision on where he goes. He can look at the Pats and see that the writing is on the wall. At MOST, he'll have one year of starting at LT before Solder takes over. Could Light move inside? Possibly. But it's a position he's never played before, to my knowledge.

So, tell us, again, how the Pats aren't showing loyalty since it was Light's decision to go to free agency?

jeffbiologist said:

Now the reason Solder will define BB is simply because we didnt win SBs with BB draft picks. Our SB teams were the grizzled old vets who were old and slow, a bunch of ragtag players off the scrap heap etc. BB can coach them! With the remake of this team we are now one of the youngest teams in the league and BB hasnt demonstrated the same success with his draft picks. Having and paying Seymour(yes, a BB pick) would have won us more games, likely playoff games, in the last 2 years. Period. Would it have cost us a few players at the end of the roster....YES. Solder wouldnt be here. But those players at the end of our roster now are guys like Wilhite, Brace, Ornberger who in years past would have been replaced by a JAG like Otis Smith/Anthony Pleasant/Hochstein. Those type of JAGs have something in common that BB drafted/coached players dont......MOTIVATION. There is simply no motivation from the youth on this team!! There is something to be said for the heiarchy system paying stars and sprinkling in JAGs, it keeps the "middle class" hungry. I suggest so many 2nd-3rd round picks only expands the "middle class" and wont be fully rewarding those that do make it to stardom.... which is particularly difficult to define on a BB team. The guys in the locker room will see this first. At what point in this evolution does BB lose his locker room because of it?

Click to expand...

HUH?? How the hell do you get that BB drafted/Coached players don't have motivation?? Where do you get that there is no motivation from the youth on this team?? in all honesty, that is you talking garbage with no proof whatsoever to support you.

I believe that it could easily be argued that neither Otis Smith nor Anthony pleasant were at the bottom of the roster during the first SB. Especially since they both started in that 1st SuperBowl.

Again, you show you don't actually do any homework for your "theory" (and I use that term lightly). How can you expect to be taken seriously if you can't even be bothered to check your facts?

captain stone said:

An example of the tenuousness of the locker room:
When Brandon Meriweather is the elder statesman of your defensive backfield,
you're in big trouble.

Click to expand...

Leigh Bodden says "HI". So does James Sanders. They both have more seniority than Meriweather.

The entire premise is wrong. With the possible exception of a Ryan Leaf/Jamarcus Russell highly expensive bust, no one picks defines a single draft let alone a team's offseason or a GM's legacy.

If Solder stinks to high heaven but, for example, Vereen, Dowling Mallett and Cousins are multi-year pro bowlers, it's not only a good draft, it's a great draft.

I think Solder is a boom or bust for sure.. But with the way the coaches brought along all the other lineman dont you guys think he is going to be awesome?!? I mean the jump Sebas had was tremendous!!

Vereen and Riddley I AM TELLING U are going to be a sweet combo guys the only thing im still stuck on is wheres WoodY? I love that guy!

Matt Light will sign a 2 year contract ... at least a 1 year with an option. Makes no sense to let him go.

I disagree about the Light move sending a signal to FAs that they won't be rewarded, especially a year after Wilfork, Tully, and Bodden all received nice contracts.

I heard the same after we let go/traded/didn't re-sign Milloy, McGinest, Asante, Branch, and Law among others, and yet FAs keep coming to New England.

As far as leadership goes, it's sad to see a good guy leave. But it gives the opportunity for one of the young guys to emerge. Mayo was named a captain at a very young age. Maybe Solder or Vollmer will pick up the torch if Light leaves. Lately we've been picking a lot of college captains, so I don't expect there to be a massive leadership vacuum.

So many things to disagree with. To start, Light is not a low key understated guy, not sure what would make you think so, except that he's a lineman. He's an unapologetic clown and has a "made for TV" personality.

jeffbiologist said:

Having and paying Seymour(yes, a BB pick) would have won us more games, likely playoff games, in the last 2 years. Period. Would it have cost us a few players at the end of the roster....YES. Solder wouldnt be here.

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Except that Seymour only had 1 more year on his contract, and we couldn't have been able to re-sign both him and Light and Wilfork. BB made his choice. But the idea that Seymour would have won us games in the last two years is untrue. The choice was one more year of Seymour and a 2011 3rd round Compensatory pick, or a 2011 1st round pick.

But those players at the end of our roster now are guys like Wilhite, Brace, Ornberger who in years past would have been replaced by a JAG like Otis Smith/Anthony Pleasant/Hochstein. Those type of JAGs have something in common that BB drafted/coached players dont......MOTIVATION. There is simply no motivation from the youth on this team!! There is something to be said for the heiarchy system paying stars and sprinkling in JAGs, it keeps the "middle class" hungry.

Click to expand...

Motivation doesn't come from being a JAG. I dont see how you think bringing JAGs onto the team is going to make it harder working. You get a hard working team by finding guys that work hard, whether in the draft or free agency.

But, even if it did, your claim that the roster is short on motivation just doesn't smell right when high effort guys like BJGE and Woodhead and Arrington and Ninkovich and Wright are all up and down the roster.

Also, the fact that BB is using his picks on players like Ras-I, Mallett and Cannon, who each have plenty of motivation to prove something to the world, is another point against you. As a group BB's rookies have a lot they'd like to prove.

Losing Light sends a clear message to any potential FAs that loyalty isnt rewarded.

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Ha! Well, if that message wasn't sent with Vinatieri or Vrabel or McGinest or Bledsoe or Milloy, then yeah you're right. Myself, I think that message is out pretty much out there with or without a contract for Light.

Keeping Light sends our highest draft pick in a few years to the bench as our #3 T and blocking TE!! Thats not going to happen.

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This is not as impossible as you think. Ty Warren spent his rookie year on the bench behind Bobby Hamilton, even as the #13 pick. Ben Watson was the #3 TE on the roster after being picked in the first round.

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If your argument is that BB is drafting TOO MANY players, and thus making the roster too young, maybe there's something there. The team is unquestionably young, and perhaps that means fewer veteran JAGs. But BB prizes guys like Crumpler and Faulk very highly, and is always plugging one or two veteran professionals onto the team to set the tone for the team. I'm think of Bryan Cox who was huge in 2001. If you're not seeing enough of that on the roster just now, take some consolation in the fact that Free Agency hasn't started. And precisely because BB's team is so young and cheap, he'll be able to cherry pick from among his favorite veterans. He doesn't even have to limit himself to JAGs.

What you're really saying, I think, is that you would prefer a bigger gap in talent between our best players and our worst players. I infer that you'd want more pro-bowlers and more scrubs instead of 53 starting caliber no-names. Instead of Vereen and Ridley, you'd prefer to have Mark Ingram and a scrub #4 RB off the waiver wire. Or Jermaine Gresham in the 1st plus a roster scrub, instead of drafting Gronkowski in the 2nd and Hernandez in the 4th.

Drafting a player is a crapshoot, anyway, and putting all your money on one horse is a dangerous proposition. Injuries are part of the game. Having a shallow team makes it hard to consistently compete. For example, the jury is out which RB will have the best career between Ingram, Vereen and Ridley. Hey, it might not be Ingram!

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Your skepticism over Solder is familiar to me. People questioned the Seymour pick, when we had a huge need at WR. People questioned the McCourty pick, when we had a huge need at OLB. People questioned the Mankins pick... an OG in the 1st round?!?

I do not believe the Solder pick will define BB's personnel moves. His record with the Pats is almost an entire decade long, and this is one in a long chain of questioned picks that have turned out proving him right.

The irony is, BB's biggest 1st round bust is the pick that everyone universally loved: Lawrence Moroney.

Don't let facts get inthe way. They never have for JB or the Capt'n.

I really feel both would be much happier rooting for another team or perhaps, the Rod Rust Pats... I'm sure fans like these were involved in the firing of Paul Brown in Cleveland and the "retirement" of Don Shula in Miami.

Oswlek said:

I find it hillarious when people say, "he didn't win the SB with draft picks" as if recognizing talent in the FA market is supposed to be some big knock or something. And when you win a SB in your 2nd year, it's hard to have drafted enough players to entirely turn over a roster.

But, to the larger point, something tells me that these guys had an impact on NE's SB winning teams

Brady
Seymour
Wilfork
Warren
Branch
Givens
Light
Koppen
Geno
Asante

That's 10 or 22 starting positions that were pure draft picks.

Click to expand...

I think it would be safe to say our DEFENSE won our super bowls
Vrabel
Hamilton
McGinest
Bruschi
Harrison
Colvin
Johnson
Law
Washington
, with timely scores from AV/TB. We did get some nice players drafting for sure, but thats not the only thing I was talking about. It was mostly about vet experience...

DaBruinz said:

First of all, Light's last contract was pretty lucrative. To say he wasn't rewarded for his loyalty shows that you didn't really look into it.

He signed a decent contract, but as I stated he didnt break the bank...

Mayo was a higher draft pick than Solder.

Soooo? What does that matter? Does anyone remember the hole at ILB? Shoot I could have started....LMAO. Bruschi was exactly coming off a All Pro year...Light is!

Putting Solder on the bench and working him in rotation wouldn't be a bad thing. That's what the Pats did with Vollmer. They also started to do that with Light when Light was a rookie.

Vollmer and Light were late 2nd round picks not #17 overall, that guy HAS to start.

Also, if Light is the one who chose to go to free agency this time around instead of signing an extension. He said so himself. So, it's a bit premature to say that the Pats haven't shown him any loyalty. Not to mention that it's Light's decision on where he goes. He can look at the Pats and see that the writing is on the wall. At MOST, he'll have one year of starting at LT before Solder takes over. Could Light move inside? Possibly. But it's a position he's never played before, to my knowledge.

It was well known that Moss also went into FA to find his market value only to come back and have us meet it. With Solder on the team does anyone think that Light, off a Pro Bowl year, will be given the same opportunity??

So, tell us, again, how the Pats aren't showing loyalty since it was Light's decision to go to free agency?

My answer is obvious.

HUH?? How the hell do you get that BB drafted/Coached players don't have motivation?? Where do you get that there is no motivation from the youth on this team?? in all honesty, that is you talking garbage with no proof whatsoever to support you.

I'm saying a 2nd round draft pick doesnt have the same motivation as a vet. When was the last time a vet FA took far less money to play here than market value? Maybe you can count Seau...other than that nobody.

I believe that it could easily be argued that neither Otis Smith nor Anthony pleasant were at the bottom of the roster during the first SB. Especially since they both started in that 1st SuperBowl.

Your making my point for me now!!

Again, you show you don't actually do any homework for your "theory" (and I use that term lightly). How can you expect to be taken seriously if you can't even be bothered to check your facts?

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Facts checked. Opinions checked. You gotta know the difference. How can you expect me to take you seriously when you end every retort to me with garbage? Look, this isnt persnal, its a friggin OPINION board, and mine is educated. You dont have to like it, if we all agreed this board would suck!

Shelterdog said:

The entire premise is wrong. With the possible exception of a Ryan Leaf/Jamarcus Russell highly expensive bust, no one picks defines a single draft let alone a team's offseason or a GM's legacy.

If Solder stinks to high heaven but, for example, Vereen, Dowling Mallett and Cousins are multi-year pro bowlers, it's not only a good draft, it's a great draft.

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The premise isnt wrong, you didnt read it right. Its not at all about Solder, shoot he could be a pro bowler this year and it wouldnt have affected this thread. Its not even about the draft but the GMs philosophy about who to pay and who not to pay. I never said a bad thing about BB the COACH, ever. But Light's slight will send ripples through the locker room I'm afraid. If you now have a bunch of young talented guys without proper leadership ON THE FIELD that could affect us in playoff time when it counts.

jeffbiologist said:

The premise isnt wrong, you didnt read it right. Its not at all about Solder, shoot he could be a pro bowler this year and it wouldnt have affected this thread. Its not even about the draft but the GMs philosophy about who to pay and who not to pay. I never said a bad thing about BB the COACH, ever. But Light's slight will send ripples through the locker room I'm afraid. If you now have a bunch of young talented guys without proper leadership ON THE FIELD that could affect us in playoff time when it counts.

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I think the players know by now that BB subscribes to the Bill Walsh theory that it's better to get rid of a player one year too early than one year too late. They understand that this is a business and the objective is winning - that's how BB (and any other coach) keeps his job. Young players come, old players go.

Sfpat said:

I think the players know by now that BB subscribes to the Bill Walsh theory that it's better to get rid of a player one year too early than one year too late. They understand that this is a business and the objective is winning - that's how BB (and any other coach) keeps his job. Young players come, old players go.

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Not sure I agree with this. Hypothetical scenario....what if Hoyer or Mallett outplayed BRADY in the preseason, do you bench him, cut him?? Of course not. You have vets on your team to lead a team in the PLAYOFFS, you need more than 2 of these guys on your team!

jeffbiologist said:

The premise isnt wrong, you didnt read it right. Its not at all about Solder, shoot he could be a pro bowler this year and it wouldnt have affected this thread. Its not even about the draft but the GMs philosophy about who to pay and who not to pay. I never said a bad thing about BB the COACH, ever. But Light's slight will send ripples through the locker room I'm afraid. If you now have a bunch of young talented guys without proper leadership ON THE FIELD that could affect us in playoff time when it counts.

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I read what you wrote correctly, you just write like ****.