Ninkovich and Banta-Cain, your NE Patriots starting OLB

Urgent said:

I'll go ahead and disagree with this popular view.
If the Patriots had moved up three or four picks for either Quinn or Kerrigan, they would immediately be the best OLB on the team.
If they had taken Reed or Justin Houston, they probably would be rookie starters opposite Cunningham.

While it normally takes a couple years - I totally agree - the current weakness is such that Quinn, Kerrigan, Reed, or Houston would immediately be better than Ninkovich or TBC.

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I also tend to agree.

I see nothing wrong burning a 1st, 2nd or 3rd rounder for a kid who can play 20-30 snaps a game, scream off the edge and pressure the QB, but be a complete liability dropping into coverage.

Charles Haley and Pat Swilling had a nice career doing this.

Ninkovich is awful, he should be left on special teams.

Keyser Söze said:

Ninkovich is awful, he should be left on special teams.

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Ninkovich is better than any OLB not taken at 7 or 14 would have been.

The Pats do not get to the quaterback because they consistently rush 3 or 4. On rare occassions they rush 5. When you rush three against five offensive lineman, you are not going to get a pass rush. The problem, and I am not sure there is a problem since the team did go 14-2, is the scheme. Reggie White would have 3 sacks per season in this scheme. BB prefers coverage. Period. And when his O gets early leads of two or three TD's, BB's scheme produces win after win. Now, if the Pats have to play catchup, the scheme does not work so good. Then it's the reverse of a wishbone team falling behind and having to catch up. By the way, you know the defensive players chafe under this tight scheme and complain about it behind the scenes, which is why BB only drafts good soldier type of players who will follow orders.

mac said:

The Pats do not get to the quaterback because they consistently rush 3 or 4. On rare occassions they rush 5. When you rush three against five offensive lineman, you are not going to get a pass rush. The problem, and I am not sure there is a problem since the team did go 14-2, is the scheme. Reggie White would have 3 sacks per season in this scheme. BB prefers coverage. Period. And when his O gets early leads of two or three TD's, BB's scheme produces win after win. Now, if the Pats have to play catchup, the scheme does not work so good. Then it's the reverse of a wishbone team falling behind and having to catch up. By the way, you know the defensive players chafe under this tight scheme and complain about it behind the scenes, which is why BB only drafts good soldier type of players who will follow orders.

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I'm sure the Patriots will be contacting you shortly. You apparently know more than Bill Belichick. Thanks for sharing

condon84 said:

Yup. Unless Cunningham can break up this amazing tandem, this is what we'll be looking forward to.

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WTF?

Cunningham flashed tremendous upside. He was in position to make a lot of plays but just couldn't finish them off. If he can develop upper body strength in this offseason and stay healthy, I'm more excited about him than rolling the dice on any of the collegiate pass rushers available to us where we were drafting this year.

Fletcher also was improving tremendously as he got playing time, nicely addressing the concern about how his small college pass-rush dominance would translate into the NFL. He's also has a ton of upside as an edge rusher (although he might end up being too valuable at ILB).

So for me Upside(Cunningham, Fletcher) > Expectation(Uncertainty(pick your 1st-- round collegian)).

Ninkovich is still improving but his ceiling is in sight and it's low. TBC should never be anything but a rotational option.

Also, the ILB group all have pass rushing skills, both from inside and on the edge. We have a lot of schematic pass rush opportunities with the LB group overall.

I see lots of reasons to hope for much improved pass defense overall next year, both from a potentially dramatically upgraded CB crew (McCourty year2, Bodden's return, and Dowling) and development of our very young LB crew.

A stouter DLINE by adding Warren and Stroud, and further development of Brace, Pryor, and Deaderick will also help indirectly by reducing play action opportunities and increasing the number of 2nd and 3rd and longs.

I'm not optimistic about Mike Wright's ability to stay healthy, so I'm discounting him as pass rusher, but if he comes back, we have two pretty interior line good penetrators in Wilfork and Wright.

This defense was coming together towards the end of last year and is getting back and adding some key people. It's very young aside from Warren, Stroud, and Bodden, all three of whom were entirely missing last year.

This defense could be a lot better than many here can apparently conceive. It'll come down to how much the young guys continue to improve, and how much luck we have with injuries.

Cunningham "flashed amazing upside"

Wow, how did I miss that....

Keyser Söze said:

Cunningham "flashed amazing upside"

Wow, how did I miss that....

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....another one who thinks a rookie year is the determining factor to a solid career in the NFL.

satz said:

Actually, its ninkovich and cunningham as far as i remember
banta by the end of the season became more situational.

the only thing i see BB has selected players in position who can play even with limited camp /ota

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Yes. This seems to be a lockout-proof draft.
Mallett a normal QB redshirt year.
Cannon a medical redshirt.
Ridley and Vereen have special teams experience, plus running back is the easiest position to step in and contribute right away.

Dowling, acccording to Al Groh and Vincent Brown, is a superb special teams player.
Solder, at least, now has a playbook and nutrition and strength-building instructions.

Keyser Söze said:

Cunningham "flashed amazing upside"

Wow, how did I miss that....

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Yes, you clearly did miss that. I watched every freaking play of every freaking game back and forth in slo-mo last year. You can learn a lot about front-7 play even from the network feeds. That's what I base my statement on. How about you?

Keyser Söze said:

Cunningham "flashed amazing upside"

Wow, how did I miss that....

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Maybe it was while you were *****ing to your friends about how bad BB is at drafting?

:confused2:

Maybe, adding to the Secondary will allow an extra pass-rush from Spikes and Mayo at times.

Cunningham is a starter. Ninko is there. Who knows what he sees in Moore and Fletcher (who despite being an ILB can play at OLB)

In BB I trust.

Rob0729 said:

Did free agency start already. The fact of the matter is Belichick prefers to fill the OLB position through free agency over the draft. It can take two to three years for a rookie DE to make the complete conversion to OLB in the 3-4 (that is why I am hopeful for a breakout year for Cunningham).

The good news is that many of the teams that are looking for players who can play OLB in the 3-4 filled their need in the last two days. The Pats won't have nearly as much competition for the top free agents in this area.

I think Mathias Kiwunika might be a target. He doesn't have 3-4 experience, but does have two gap experience. I think he can benefit with his hand off the ground. Yeah, he didn't do that well playing OLB for the Giants, but they played him as a 4-3 OLB.

People need to see how free agency goes before they biatch about the OLB situation.

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Problem is, what if there is no free agency? Now, I'm no Thurgood Marshall, but it seems like this legal ho-down could go on for quite some time. If the lockout ends in August or Sept., there is no guarantee of FA.

I think we can all agree that BB did not covet the defensive talent in this draft and probably had an eye toward grabbing someone in FA, but we have to have a FA period for that to happen. I was very optimistic before the stay was granted. Now I'm hoping we don't see this devolve into some legal malaise that goes on for months with endless stays and appeals and motions and before we know it we're starring down the start of the season with no resolution in sight.

mgcolby said:

Maybe it was while you were *****ing to your friends about how bad BB is at drafting?

:confused2:

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Cunningham made one noticable play all season against the Colts, and now he's got "amazing upside."

You'll ball wash anything BB does.

Keyser Söze said:

Cunningham made one noticable play all season against the Colts, and now he's got "amazing upside."

You'll ball wash anything BB does.

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If Cunningham had better upper body strength and tackling skills, he would've had 8 sacks

Is that true that NE swapped the 194th pick for the 195th pick just to keep their yearly trade with Philly alive?

oops wrong thread but still wondering....

FCB02062 said:

Yup, get ready for alot of mediocre quarterbacks posting BIG #s against this "defense" again, Like Flynn and Sanchize last year. If this defense doesn't replicate their incredible turnover ratio from last year, we're looking at a bottom 10 defense. Take away that ridiculous turnover ratio from last year and last year's team is 9-7 or 10-6 with a defense ranked in the bottom third in just about every category....

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So what you are saying is that the same players with the additions of Ty Warren (all-pro) and Leigh Bodden will not make this D better and therefore will be incapable of replicating something they did last year which was turn the ball over? Got it....

What makes you think with a full year in the system now that they won't be even better at making turnovers and that Warren and Bodden won't help improve the 3rd down D. Point is you don't so look at the glass half empty all you want that is your right, I choose to see the glass as half full.

Urgent said:

I'll go ahead and disagree with this popular view.
If the Patriots had moved up three or four picks for either Quinn or Kerrigan, they would immediately be the best OLB on the team.
If they had taken Reed or Justin Houston, they probably would be rookie starters opposite Cunningham.

While it normally takes a couple years - I totally agree - the current weakness is such that Quinn, Kerrigan, Reed, or Houston would immediately be better than Ninkovich or TBC.

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You are daft. Not a single one has an NFL sack, never mind multiple seasons of double digit sacks...

Keyser Söze said:

Cunningham made one noticable play all season against the Colts, and now he's got "amazing upside."

You'll ball wash anything BB does.

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And I will be right far more often than not.

Unlike your amazing predictions like this one from last year's draft after we took McCourty....

"This seriously looks like BB is throwing the draft. That's how bad of a pick it was"

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ts-draft-day-1-thread-page25.html#post1796900

How did that work out for ya?

And your statement about Cunningham only making one "standout" play shows that you either don't know anything about football or you are not paying attention.

The guy was very good against the run, and steadily improved his pass rushing as the season went on. He was in the backfield a lot, but always seemed to be a step to slow. As he develops, better moves and adjusts to the speed of the NFL, he will start to get there. His pass rushing directly contributed to several picks last year. But far to many of the negative nancy's around here only seem to be able to equate talent to sacks and Int's.

SoonerPatriot said:

Problem is, what if there is no free agency? Now, I'm no Thurgood Marshall, but it seems like this legal ho-down could go on for quite some time. If the lockout ends in August or Sept., there is no guarantee of FA.

I think we can all agree that BB did not covet the defensive talent in this draft and probably had an eye toward grabbing someone in FA, but we have to have a FA period for that to happen. I was very optimistic before the stay was granted. Now I'm hoping we don't see this devolve into some legal malaise that goes on for months with endless stays and appeals and motions and before we know it we're starring down the start of the season with no resolution in sight.

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So lets use your logic, the lockout doesn't end until Aug or Sept - so now a rookie DE or OLB who hasn't seen a playbook or been through a training camp conditioning is going to step right in, learn a complex D and contribute right off the bat? You can't really believe that?