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Is it time for the NFL to dump the Rooney rule?


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The Lions couldn't get any minorities to agree to be interviewed. Exactly how do you think it would have been easy to interview minorities without having minorities to interview?

From the posted article:



NFL fines Lions' MIllen $200,000 - didn’t interview minorities - Straight Dope Message Board

Yes, I suppose we could argue about that, or whether Upshaw was right that “The Detroit Lions gave mere lip service to the agreed-upon minority hiring process, treating it almost as if a nuisance to their hiring of Steve Mariucci. The minority candidates were never given a fair chance to interview. In this case, the Lions’ position is indefensible.”

And the league agreed, fining them. They basically admitted their "offer" was like "Oh, we need to interview one of you, but we want this other guy."

I said they were idiots, and stand by it.
 
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Yes, I suppose we could argue about that, or whether Upshaw was right that “The Detroit Lions gave mere lip service to the agreed-upon minority hiring process, treating it almost as if a nuisance to their hiring of Steve Mariucci. The minority candidates were never given a fair chance to interview. In this case, the Lions’ position is indefensible.”

And the league agreed, fining them. They basically admitted their "offer" was like "Oh, we need to interview one of you, but we want this other guy."

I said they were idiots, and stand by it.


Every time a team knows which coach they want, and it's a white guy, the minority interviews are tokens, and this is known by pretty much everyone. If the 49ers manage to get Harbaugh, do you think it will come after they've seriously interviewed minority candidates? Do you think the Cowboys assistants getting interviewed didn't know that

their "offer" was like "Oh, we need to interview one of you, but we want this other guy."

or do you think that Ray Sherman was stupid enough to think he had a chance at the job?

Do you think that if/when Cowher and Gruden decide to return to coaching, the teams involved won't be saying essentially the same thing that the Lions were? And you claimed that others on this thread were taking a naive approach...

The only minority candidate Jones interviewed was former Minnesota coach Dennis Green (one of those who refused to talk to Millen), over the telephone. Yet that seemed to do the trick. Mehri and a few others objected, but the NFL went along.

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-2486324/NFL-hiring-policy-a-delicate.html

What Millen did "wrong" was to admit that he already had someone he wanted to hire, and this was "wrong" because that person happened to be white. So, in order to avoid this in the future, you must be in favor of these potential employers lying to everyone and needlessly wasting their time every time they already know that the person they wish to hire happens to be caucasian.

Brilliant solution.
 
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More on the analogy, which Deus never addressed....

1. Imagine a road race with two groups, one with red shirts the other with blue. The people with red shirts have 40 pound stones tied to their ankles at the start of the race.
2. About a week in, some people realize that the situation is unfair, and the stones are removed. However, this doesn't remedy the injustice, the effects of which are still obvious.
3. They decide to give the red shirts a boost up toward the blue shirts because they've been weighed down so long, it obviously wasn't enough just to remove the weights from their ankles.

I find this analogy helps pinpoint people's points of disagreements and agreements in these types of discussion, much better than the usual 'reverse racism' kind of knee-jerk.

Lots of lame stuff in this thread, has anyone mentioned that the red shirts might be divided by socioeconomic, educational status, rather than race? Seems a better fight to pick.
 
More on the analogy, which Deus never addressed....

1. Imagine a road race with two groups, one with red shirts the other with blue. The people with red shirts have 40 pound stones tied to their ankles at the start of the race.
2. About a week in, some people realize that the situation is unfair, and the stones are removed. However, this doesn't remedy the injustice, the effects of which are still obvious.
3. They decide to give the red shirts a boost up toward the blue shirts because they've been weighed down so long, it obviously wasn't enough just to remove the weights from their ankles.

I find this analogy helps pinpoint people's points of disagreements and agreements in these types of discussion, much better than the usual 'reverse racism' kind of knee-jerk.

Lots of lame stuff in this thread, has anyone mentioned that the red shirts might be divided by socioeconomic, educational status, rather than race? Seems a better fight to pick.

I didn't address the analogy because it doesn't apply to the situation at hand.
 
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Oh goody, I had hoped to find a thread dealing with this very topic tonight :bricks:

and the board seemed so happy lately :confused:
 
Guys, for the record, Mike Tomlin was not a Rooney Rule hire. Dan Rooney had already interviewed Ron Rivera (hispanic) before Tomlin, thus Rivera had satisfied the Rule before they ever interviewed Tomlin.

Very true, but considering the rule was named after their owner, the Steelers had a much more comprehensive list of minority candidates and were willing to see others. Tomlin wasn't even guaranteed an interview at the start of the process.

I really don't think Tomlin benefited from it. Isn't Tomlin off the Dungy coaching tree? I think he was there in tampa. He had quite a bit of credibility. The rooney rule isn't that big of a deal. But if we want to get rid of racism we shouldn't characterize people as minorities. Just people. We've come a long way from racism to implement a rule like this.

Tomlin did work for Dungy, yes. And he was coming off a very good year coaching Minnesota's defense. But Whisenhunt was considered the hottest coaching prospect at the time, and he was the Steelers OC too. Tomlin's defensive background was the Tampa-2 from Dungy and playing 4-man fronts in Minny, which wasn't exactly an exact match with Pittsburgh's 3-4. So he was a real outside candidate, not just by skin colour but also work experience.

We have come a long way from racism, but we still have a long way to go. And this is not affirmative action giving jobs to less qualified candidates in the name of diversity. It simply forces owners to spend a few extra hours interviewing someone they might not have. You can't argue it's done more harm than good, and you can't even argue it's done any real harm except for an extra flight and a few hours. But I agree, I'd love to see this rule go away some day, but I don't think today is that day.
 
The Dolphins want to hire Harbaugh.....
Do they really need to do a manditory interview of a black coach before they can hire him?

At the end of the 2010 NFL season, there were 8 black head coaches.
...

The last USA demographics I could find has the Black population
at 12.4 percent

If there were 8 black head coaches in the NFL at the end of the
season, then 25% of the head coaches were black, which is more
than double the 12.4% black population percentage.

If someone is going to spend close to a billion dollars on a football team,
I am sure they are going to hire the best coach they can find.

I'm not sure that you're looking at the right stats, as blacks clearly represent more than 12.4% of NFL personnel.

That said, I think you have a point that owners and team presidents will want the best guy for the job, so that works against bias.

In the final analysis, I come down on the side of those who would keep the rule, at least for a few more years. Whatever its cause, there has been an up-tick in the number of black coaches and coordinators since the Rooney rule was put in place. And, there's clearly been no drop off in quality, as three of the 12 teams in the Playoffs are coached by blacks.

There is such a thing as institutional bias, which can lead to the selection of a list of candidates who are "like the guys doing the selecting" and result in even well-intentioned and unbiased individuals looking past minorities at the time of a hiring decision.
 
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Try not to be too ridiculous. You don't eliminate racism by being racist.

The rule would be racist if it required hiring individuals on the basis of race. Requiring that people of color be considered for a job is not racist.

Technically, the Rooney rule is not Affirmative Action, which impacts hiring policies across classes of people and which is a matter. The principles of Affirmative Action are subject, obviously, to much debate but, as modified by the courts, are settled Law in this country and their discussion probably does belong in a political forum.
 
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Ok, first of all, black people might comprise 12% of the population as a whole, the population of former players (at both the pro and college levels) as well as lower-level coaches is considerably higher than that, and yet for a long time, they weren't finding themselves moving into the upper echelons of teams' coaching and management.

Secondly, the present total is almost certainly the largest number of minority head coaches the league has ever had, but that doesn't mean the underlying circumstances that led to minorities not finding themselves being promoted to the senior coaching positions are totally gone. If you put a stop light in an intersection because of the number of accidents that happen there, and two years later, there haven't been any accidents for a while, you don't decide the intersection doesn't need the stop light any more.

The Rooney rule helps ensure that minority candidates know they will get interviews, and as anyone who's ever job-hunted before knows, just because you don't land the gig doesn't mean the interview wasn't productive. Maybe you don't get the HC job, but catch the eye of a front-office guy who ends up being hired as a GM somewhere else. Maybe you get recommended to the new HC as a coordinator. Maybe you impress the owner or GM, and he mentions your name to a colleague. Maybe you just get some good interview experience.

At the end of the day, job-hunting is all about networking, and the Rooney rule helps introduce minority candidates to the people they need to know, and the only thing it costs anybody is a few hours of time every 2-15+ years, when they look to hire a new HC.
Co-sign. Well put.
 
This rule is a no-sense, hire the best coaches , staff and players , and dont care about if they are black, white, croatian, jews, or muslims. I cant get that kind of stuff. In Spain half of the governor ministers should be women
 
Really? That's too hard for you? Can't wrap your head around assuming a detail is different than you originally thought and considering if that would change your mind? You act as if (largely implicit) institutional racial bias is all in the past. My question was, assuming it is not all in the past, would that change your mind about this rule? They are different issues, and exploring counterfactual scenarios helps highlight the logical geography of the situation.
I think you should try to misuse fewer big words. Your posts are virtually unintelligible
 
Funny.... the Supreme Court doesn't agree with you, and affirmative action still exists with it's blessing. Check out Grutter v. Bollinger, for example. You can find this passage there:
[/URL]

My experience with AA occurred inside schools. Grutter v. Bollinger was the case that everyone had to comply with. AA used to be a POLICY, and schools that applied it did so by keeping track of that policy with statistics. We used to do the same with people of different economic classes as well. It's kind of like making sausage, people don't really want to see how it's done, but we used to assign grades to applicants taking economic status (a + if you had more money), background (a + if you were a legacy), race (a + if you were a minority), etc., into account. Grutter v. Bollinger prevented that from happening. We no longer could assign preferred status statistically to races (through use of quotas AND/OR grades). So what happened? minorities were admitted on an ad hoc basis. At a place like Penn State where the African American student body flatlined at 3% (and in some years lower) in a state with 15% AA population, what seemed like minor, simple ad hoc adjustments that were no longer based in any defined policy (though the policy existed all the same) resulted in a big drop in minority admissions.

But I added the part about legacies and economic background to give you a sense of what happens in a need-blind admissions policy. The first phase was admittance based on academic record. Then we doled out 35% of all tuition money to the students. After looking at academic record, we combined the record with academic need, and the more need you had, the more your grade would go down. For instance, a stellar student with straight As and a good amount of need would be assigned a grade of A. Landing in the A category meant we would attempt to fulfill 100% of your need. If you were a A-/B+ student with the same amount of need as the kid with an A grade, you would receive an A-/B+ and that meant (on the chart) we'd offer you 75% of your needs, and so on down the line. The kids without any need were admitted solely on academics obviously, but they were highly valued since the truth is we redistributed 35% of their money to the kids in need. That was the system. The legacy kids got an A regardless, we didn't even bother looking at their records. Their files just had a big rubber stamp on top from an administrator--we'd see the file and say, MOVING ON!

The point is, no one in that room was allowed to go back and count minorities AFTER the decisions were made. You can't eff with the process after your realized there was no longer a systematic way to ensure that your campus was diverse. Since Grutter v. Bollinger in 2003, the African-American population at PSU has dropped from 6% in 2000 to 3% now.
 
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I think you should try to misuse fewer big words. Your posts are virtually unintelligible

If you don't understand counterfactual reasoning, it's probably not even worth trying to dumb it down so you'll get it.
 
My experience with AA occurred inside schools. Grutter v. Bollinger was the case that everyone had to comply with. AA used to be a POLICY, and schools that applied it did so by keeping track of that policy with statistics. We used to do the same with people of different economic classes as well. It's kind of like making sausage, people don't really want to see how it's done, but we used to assign grades to applicants taking economic status (a + if you had more money), background (a + if you were a legacy), race (a + if you were a minority), etc., into account. Grutter v. Bollinger prevented that from happening. We no longer could assign preferred status statistically to races (through use of quotas AND/OR grades). So what happened? minorities were admitted on an ad hoc basis. At a place like Penn State where the African American student body flatlined at 3% (and in some years lower) in a state with 15% AA population, we got a big boost by making minor, simple ad hoc adjustments that were no longer based in any defined policy (though the policy existed all the same).

But I added the part about legacies and economic background to give you a sense of what happens in a need-blind admissions policy. The first phase was admittance based on academic record. Then we doled out 35% of all tuition money to the students. After looking at academic record, we combined the record with academic need, and the more need you had, the more your grade would go down. For instance, a stellar student with straight As and a good amount of need would be assigned a grade of A. Landing in the A category meant we would attempt to fulfill 100% of your need. If you were a A-/B+ student with the same amount of need as the kid with an A grade, you would receive an A-/B+ and that meant (on the chart) we'd offer you 75% of your needs, and so on down the line. The kids without any need were admitted solely on academics obviously, but they were highly valued since the truth is we redistributed 35% of their money to the kids in need. That was the system. The legacy kids got an A regardless, we didn't even bother looking at their records. Their files just had a big rubber stamp on top from an administrator--we'd see the file and say, MOVING ON!

The point is, no one in that room was allowed to go back and count minorities AFTER the decisions were made. You can't eff with the process after your realized there was no longer a systematic way to ensure that your campus was diverse. Since Grutter v. Bollinger in 2003, the African-American population at PSU has dropped from 6% in 2000 to 3% now.

Thanks, that's useful, it could probably be expanded into an article.
 
I didn't address the analogy because it doesn't apply to the situation at hand.

What is wrong with the analogy?

And if the analogy did apply, would you agree with its conclusion, or not? (For the nitwit that can't understand counterfactual reasoning, that's asking to imagine what happens if you tweak variables, in this sense to tap into your sense of justice and fairness in different less controversial cases, to see what kind of common ground we might share to see if the dispute is merely verbal or more substantive, or based on disagreements about matters of fact versus values).

People are acting like the minorities are getting preferential treatment in hiring. It's just interviews, for goodness' sake people are overreacting. If it were hiring, quotas, that kind of thing, then I'd see a more interesting argument. I'd be more sympathetic. But as is, with rules about granting a token interview (a rule that all the owners agreed to abide by, that was not handed down from on high by the NFL to the owners)?

Cry me a river, whitey.
 
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Like happened with Pittsburgh.

Yeah because the Steelers clearly had no intention of hiring Tomlin. :bricks:

Stupidity has gotten way out of hand in another thread.

Cry me a river, whitey.

Trying to get hip with the language doesn't mean you haven't invoked Godwin's law. Grow the **** up.
 
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1) Perhaps we should limit the number of African-American players to 12.4%. Seriously, the percentage of blacks in the total population is irrelevant. Coaching staffs come primarily from a pool of former players where more than 12.4% are black.

What percentage of current players are white?

2) The rule merely points out the issue and puts the hiring under scrutiny. The rule can force very little. However, IMHO, the policy of the nfl toward wanting to have more balck coaches (and asst coaches and position coaches) has increased the numbers greatly. The Rooney rule merely reiterates that policy.

To repeal the rule would say that racism is no longer an issue in the US and the nfl. If this is true, then the rule should be repealed. If not, then it should stay as a reminder.

3) It is not racism to require a certain race to be considered in hiring when more than 50% of the pool of candidates is of that race and that race has been discriminated against in the past. There are no quotas. However, obviously if blacks were to be systematically excluded from a team's coaching staff, further action would be taken by the league. The rule helps open the hiring process to view by the league.

4) Folks who think that there should be no rules regarding race in the nfl or the US are entitled to that view. There are many names and categories of such folks; libertarians and racists come to mind. Rules and laws cannot reverse racism. However, rules and laws can change behavior which will eventually change the next generation, as it has in the broad population and in the nfl. But there is no victory is simply stopping overt racism. Reminders will be necessary for another couple of generations.
 
To the folks who are saying that any hiring policy which treats races differently is racist and thus wrong...I assume that you're also the folks insisting that Hooters start hiring male waiters, right? Because a hiring policy that favors females is sexist and thus wrong?

Oh sure, you could say "this is a business requirement, because the male customers we're trying to attract want to look at female waitstaff." But if do, then you'd have to accept the argument that "black coaches are a business requirement, because the black free agents we're trying to attract want to play for black coaches."

So: down with the Rooney rule, up with Hooters Boys in tight t-shirts?
 
To the folks who are saying that any hiring policy which treats races differently is racist and thus wrong...I assume that you're also the folks insisting that Hooters start hiring male waiters, right? Because a hiring policy that favors females is sexist and thus wrong?

Oh sure, you could say "this is a business requirement, because the male customers we're trying to attract want to look at female waitstaff." But if do, then you'd have to accept the argument that "black coaches are a business requirement, because the black free agents we're trying to attract want to play for black coaches."

So: down with the Rooney rule, up with Hooters Boys in tight t-shirts?

Yeah, because it's obvious that black football players want nothing to do with team that have black coaches:rolleyes:

You never responded to my popint from before, if the purpose of the rule really was to simply give people a chance that they wouldnt have had before due to their lack of networks then why not apply it across the board in a system like I described?
 
It is indeed a business requirement of the nfl to have black coaches, assistant coaches and position coaches. Yes, black players would react differently to all-white coaching staffs. Do you really think that they wouldn't?

Where would the nfl be if they had zero black coaches and few black position coaches at the same time as having an anti-trust waiver from Congress?

The liberal media sould crucify such a racist nfl as would the Congress; yes, even the current Congress.

To the folks who are saying that any hiring policy which treats races differently is racist and thus wrong...I assume that you're also the folks insisting that Hooters start hiring male waiters, right? Because a hiring policy that favors females is sexist and thus wrong?

Oh sure, you could say "this is a business requirement, because the male customers we're trying to attract want to look at female waitstaff." But if do, then you'd have to accept the argument that "black coaches are a business requirement, because the black free agents we're trying to attract want to play for black coaches."

So: down with the Rooney rule, up with Hooters Boys in tight t-shirts?
 
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