For all those who refused to believe that BJGE may be a better back than Maroney

I don't understand why Maroney stayed so consistently bad.

Yes, I know he loved to dance behind the LOS, and to paraphrase a Broncos forum poster, would drop down a piece of cardboard at the LOS and start break dancing before hitting the hole.

Maroney had the size, speed and agility, how hard was it to commit to believing in the design of the run play and hit the freaking hole with conviction? Hell, he must have know his job was on the line... Hit the hole and if he sees daylight after that, then dance all you want.

This article sume it up nicely Laurence Maroney: Time Running Out on His Career | Bleacher Report

Maroney is finished. Close the chapter on the former New England Patriots 2006 first round draft pick. It's a shame the New England Patriots did not draft DeAngelo Williams.

Not to take anything from BJGE but with the holes the OL with the TE having been creating, Maroney could have had a good season.

D-cleater said:

How do you define talent?

I'd give Maroney the advantage in straight line speed but nothing else. After watching BJ with a full regular season behind him .... toughness, instincts, quickness, vision, strength, balance, shiftiness, pass protection, pass catching ability... all belongs to BJ. We're not even talking about focus and determination.

I have no idea how anyone can say that Maroney has more talent unless you are holding on to some misplaced belief in the dude. Stats aren't everything, but by the numbers, he's the least effective back in the NFL. What makes him so talented, other than the fact that Belichick drafted him in the first?

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Superiority in just about every testable measurable, quickness, speed, vision, balance, shiftiness, and pass catching, which BJGE is still rough at. Maroney won't hit the hole hard and Green-Ellis will, of course. But once in the open field Maroney has the talent to turn a 15 yard gain into a 50 yard touchdown.

Maroney has, to this point, almost twice as many carries as the Lawfirm. In his 618 carries he has 11 carries for 20+ yards, 4 of those going over 40 yards. The majority of those came in his first two years in the league, especially his first year, before injuries made him so gun-shy of contact. His long is a 59-yard touchdown run.

Lawfirm, in his 329 carries, has 5 carries over 20 yards, and zero over 40. His long is that 33-yard TD he scored against Green Bay, which is about the only time I have seen him make multiple people miss in the open field. He has roughly the same escapability as Dan Connolly. Actually I think Dan Connolly might be more talented because of that repulsive stiff-arm he has.

The usual difference between a good and an elite back in the NFL is the ability to turn a 15-yard gain into a 60-yard touchdown. Run two backs into the line 19 times for 65 yards, that's a great day for the defense. But if one back finishes with 20 carries for 80 yards, and the other has 20 carries for 125 yards and a highlight reel touchdown, who's the gamechanger?

Maroney has all the skills you can't teach, i.e. talent. Unfortunately, he also has none of the skills that you can.

vuudu said:

Not to take anything from BJGE but with the holes the OL with the TE having been creating, Maroney could have had a good season.

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And I could have hit the Mega Millions last night.

unoriginal said:

Superiority in just about every testable measurable, quickness, speed, vision, balance, shiftiness, and pass catching

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How is vision a testable measurable, and how could anyone conclude, even subjectively, that Maroney has superior vision to BJGE? I'd say, Maroney's greatest weakness was and is poor vision - this is what leads to his hesitation behind the line, more so than any perceived lack of toughness. BJGE is much better at quickly identifying what crease there is and getting into it, even if he is not always fast enough to fully exploit a crease.

ATippett56 said:

Maroney is finished. Close the chapter on the former New England Patriots 2006 first round draft pick. It's a shame the New England Patriots did not draft DeAngelo Williams.

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I still sit and wonder what could have been if we had taken Mo Drew who was not drafted until spots later

If Woodhead is having big success imagine what this other little guy would have done,our OL is perfect for scat backs

unoriginal said:

Superiority in just about every testable measurable, quickness, speed, vision, balance, shiftiness, and pass catching, which BJGE is still rough at. Maroney won't hit the hole hard and Green-Ellis will, of course. But once in the open field Maroney has the talent to turn a 15 yard gain into a 50 yard touchdown.

Maroney has, to this point, almost twice as many carries as the Lawfirm. In his 618 carries he has 11 carries for 20+ yards, 4 of those going over 40 yards. The majority of those came in his first two years in the league, especially his first year, before injuries made him so gun-shy of contact. His long is a 59-yard touchdown run.

Lawfirm, in his 329 carries, has 5 carries over 20 yards, and zero over 40. His long is that 33-yard TD he scored against Green Bay, which is about the only time I have seen him make multiple people miss in the open field. He has roughly the same escapability as Dan Connolly. Actually I think Dan Connolly might be more talented because of that repulsive stiff-arm he has.

The usual difference between a good and an elite back in the NFL is the ability to turn a 15-yard gain into a 60-yard touchdown. Run two backs into the line 19 times for 65 yards, that's a great day for the defense. But if one back finishes with 20 carries for 80 yards, and the other has 20 carries for 125 yards and a highlight reel touchdown, who's the gamechanger?

Maroney has all the skills you can't teach, i.e. talent. Unfortunately, he also has none of the skills that you can.

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I don't think the argument is about whether or not BJGE is a superstar RB, which he clearly is not. The argument was about whether or not he is better than Maroney (which at this point, he clearly is, whether it is a case of maximizing your talents, vs. letting them go to waste).

Nobody is going to have the perfect RB, and there are always tradeoffs. Ball security over lack of speed or break ability is something I would rather have.

Also BJGE rarely gets tackled for a loss. That speaks to his dependability in terms of biting off chunks of the down whenever needed, and considering the pass first offense we have, I think that is all we need to keep the defense honest.

unoriginal said:

Superiority in just about every testable measurable, quickness, speed, vision, balance, shiftiness, and pass catching, which BJGE is still rough at.

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I agree with the previous poster that several of these are not measurables, but are you saying that Maroney is the superior back in any of these other than speed? Just looking for some clarification there.

Maroney won't hit the hole hard and Green-Ellis will, of course. But once in the open field Maroney has the talent to turn a 15 yard gain into a 50 yard touchdown.

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I don't remember Maroney taking it to the house that often, but lets just say he did. What good is it if he never sees the open field?

I don't buy that injuries made Maroney gun shy. I don't think he had the drive to improve the areas where he was lacking. It wasn't like defenses were stacking the box against Maroney. He couldn't hit the hole.

He has roughly the same escapability as Dan Connolly. Actually I think Dan Connolly might be more talented because of that repulsive stiff-arm he has.

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Funny . Thanks for adding humor to this because I am starting to question myself for even debating it.

The usual difference between a good and an elite back in the NFL is the ability to turn a 15-yard gain into a 60-yard touchdown. Run two backs into the line 19 times for 65 yards, that's a great day for the defense. But if one back finishes with 20 carries for 80 yards, and the other has 20 carries for 125 yards and a highlight reel touchdown, who's the gamechanger?

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I disagree. The difference between a good and elite back in the NFL is not turning the 15 yard gain into a 60 yard gain. Thats the difference between a good and elite WR. The difference between a good and elite back is turning a run for a loss into a positive gain. It's converting the first down when there appears to be nothing there, maintaining possession, and keeping the ball in the hands of your HOF QB.

Run two backs into the line 19 times for 65 yards, that's a great day for the offense if the backs get two TD's, convert a high percentage of first downs, and set up the play action on first down. Give me a consistent 20 carries for 80 yards over 16 games over the 20/125 in weeks 2 and 4 any day.

Maroney has all the skills you can't teach, i.e. talent. Unfortunately, he also has none of the skills that you can.

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I don't think he has very many skills at all... I think he has speed, which is an asset, not a skill. Chad Jackson had speed too.

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

I still sit and wonder what could have been if we had taken Mo Drew who was not drafted until spots later

If Woodhead is having big success imagine what this other little guy would have done,our OL is perfect for scat backs

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They could have also had Joseph Addai who was also a few picks later. I remember at the time of the draft, many people though we had stolen the guy the Colts really wanted and they had to settle for Addai.

Trocadile said:

How is vision a testable measurable, and how could anyone conclude, even subjectively, that Maroney has superior vision to BJGE?

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I meant specifically when in the open field, BJGE has a tendency to stumble into defenders instead of running away from pursuit. I think that's the best test of "vision." I think Maroney's problems behind the line aren't so much about vision but instead a lack of toughness.

D-cleater said:

I agree with the previous poster that several of these are not measurables, but are you saying that Maroney is the superior back in any of these other than speed? Just looking for some clarification there.

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And I agree with both of you! Hence why I used a comma separating "testable measurables" from the other items in that list, instead of a colon, which would indicate the list consisted of said measurables.

D-cleater said:

I don't remember Maroney taking it to the house that often, but lets just say he did. What good is it if he never sees the open field?

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No good whatsoever, which is why he's gone and Lawfirm is the feature back.

D-cleater said:

I disagree. The difference between a good and elite back in the NFL is not turning the 15 yard gain into a 60 yard gain. Thats the difference between a good and elite WR. The difference between a good and elite back is turning a run for a loss into a positive gain. It's converting the first down when there appears to be nothing there, maintaining possession, and keeping the ball in the hands of your HOF QB.

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I'd say that's the difference between an average running back and a good one, but to each his own. Presumably the guy who doesn't do that doesn't get on the field much to begin with, a la Maroney these days.

D-cleater said:

I don't think he has very many skills at all... I think he has speed, which is an asset, not a skill. Chad Jackson had speed too.

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Pats sure were stupid to take him in the first round then. I hope they fired the guy who rated him that high on speed alone.

Patspsycho said:

I don't think the argument is about whether or not BJGE is a superstar RB, which he clearly is not. The argument was about whether or not he is better than Maroney (which at this point, he clearly is, whether it is a case of maximizing your talents, vs. letting them go to waste).

Nobody is going to have the perfect RB, and there are always tradeoffs. Ball security over lack of speed or break ability is something I would rather have.

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The argument I was responding to specifically was about which running back was more talented, with flavorings of "boy, how could the Pats not properly evaluate that a 2007 UDFA had better potential than a 2006 1st rounder?" You're right, the larger point, one we all can agree on, is that BJGE is a better back than Maroney. But that doesn't mean the Pats somehow took a less talented back in the 1st a year before they picked up an UDFA, nor does it mean the Pats might not try to upgrade the position through the draft. Just like a home-run receiver can influence coverages, the presence of a home-run runner can do marvelous things to an opponent's game plan.

Would BB have been so willing to concentrate on Jim Kelly and the Bills' K-Gun if he knew Thurman Thomas would turn the Super Bowl XXV into a track meet?