Ben-Jarvis Green-Ellis

You disagree without even opinions to back up your position. Which compettive teams are starting a worse running back? Deus gave his answer and I agree. What is you answer?

I have not used the labels you mention. I would certainly be well satisfied if we had an "average" starting running back.

Patspsycho said:

It is the end of the story to my discussion with rob0279 who was arguing that BJGE was very inconsistent and hence deserving of being labelled "mediocre" and "crappy."

And please spare me the crap that BJGE is one of the very worst RB- 4.2 YPC and 6 TD's are far from "worse."

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I Like BJGE i think hes doing really well. He sees the hole and runs hard straight towards it, no dancing around like Maroney used to.

BJGE is a hard working non diva RB and he is fitting in well at the moment!

NFL.com has the Pats on the drive of the week, in which BJGE played a big role.

NFL Videos: Drive of the Week: Patriot perfection

Funny to see Bucky Brooks just give up on saying Law Firm's full name. He goes to "Ben-Jarvis Ellis" then just "Ellis." (What a dour pair Brooks and Moss are).

Patspsycho said:

It is the end of the story to my discussion with rob0279 who was arguing that BJGE was very inconsistent and hence deserving of being labelled "mediocre" and "crappy."

And please spare me the crap that BJGE is one of the very worst RB- 4.2 YPC and 6 TD's are far from "worse."

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Exactly how did it do that? One line from a Bill Belichick press conference erases the fact that in three of the last five games BJGE failed to get at least 25 yards or more than 2.2 YPC running the ball?

Using a Belichick press conference to provide proof of anything is ridiculous. Belichick tells us what he wants us to hear, not what he is thinking.

BJGE's production over the last five games (one great game, one good game, three horrible games) has been anything but consistent. If you want to take a single line in a Belichick press conference over actual production on the field, I guess it is clear that you cannot get over your binkieitis of BJGE.

And I consider a lead RB who fails to get even 75 total when you combine his three worst games in the last five (or 100 yards when you combine his four worst games), a mediocre lead running back. When you are consistently not getting at least 25 yards rushing as a lead back, I don't know how you can say he is anything but mediocre especially with only one other option at RB (Woodhead) since Morris is basically done, Faulk is on IR, and Taylor is out.

BTW, people said it was Cleveland's defense that made BJGE not run well and it wasn't BJGE fault (9 carries for 14 yards and a 1.6 YPC average) , but Danny Woodhead ran 9 times for 54 yards for a 6.0 average. Also against Baltimore when BJGE also failed miserably (10 carries for 20 yards for a 2.0 YPC average), Woodhead got 11 carries for 63 yards for a 5.7 YPC average.

mgteich said:

You disagree without even opinions to back up your position. Which compettive teams are starting a worse running back? Deus gave his answer and I agree. What is you answer?

I have not used the labels you mention. I would certainly be well satisfied if we had an "average" starting running back.

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Saints RB is worse. Chris Ivory is their leading rusher and has accumulated almost all his stats in two games vs the Bucs and Panthers.

Green Bay is worse.

Chicago is worse

Colts are bad as well ( Considering Addai Health issues)

Seattle too.

I only looked at the top teams in each Conf, but I would certainly argue that we are at least average.

We have also played some very stout run defenses, and I expect our numbers will slightly improve in the 2nd half of the season.

Rob0729 said:

Exactly how did it do that? One line from a Bill Belichick press conference erases the fact that in three of the last five games BJGE failed to get at least 25 yards or more than 2.2 YPC running the ball?

Using a Belichick press conference to provide proof of anything is ridiculous. Belichick tells us what he wants us to hear, not what he is thinking.

BJGE's production over the last five games (one great game, one good game, three horrible games) has been anything but consistent. If you want to take a single line in a Belichick press conference over actual production on the field, I guess it is clear that you cannot get over your binkieitis of BJGE.

And I consider a lead RB who fails to get even 75 total when you combine his three worst games in the last five (or 100 yards when you combine his four worst games), a mediocre lead running back. When you are consistently not getting at least 25 yards rushing as a lead back, I don't know how you can say he is anything but mediocre especially with only one other option at RB (Woodhead) since Morris is basically done, Faulk is on IR, and Taylor is out.

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Of course BB is not going to throw anyone under the bus, but it is very revealing that in answer to a very general question, that the first thing that should come to BB's mind is consistency.

Also you have not shown how you can tell the difference between BJGE having a bad day, the OL not doing its job, or if it was a case of the gameplan leaving the run game, like they did in Cleveland when they got into a deep hole.

Rob0729 said:

Far more consistent than BJGE. His worst game was a 2.8 YPC (BJGE has had 4 games where his average was less than that). Other than that, he never went below 3.2 YPC. And he was injured for most of the season.

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I disagree with this assessment. BJGE is pretty much the definition of consistency. He hits the hole hard, never loses yardage, and gets more extra yards in a pile than just about anyone. Now he's also showing he can catch and run, and he's had his fair share of 10-20 yard runs. He's never injured. You know what you're getting when you give him the ball. When he only gets 1-2 yards on a run, the problem is usually up front.

Obviously Fred Taylor is a major talent and more likely than BJGE to see a crease and go 20 yards. But his injuries are a major issue. Also I think I prefer BJGE on a 3rd and 1 - Taylor runs upright and is less likely to grind out that yard.

Rob0729 said:

BTW, people said it was Cleveland's defense that made BJGE not run well and it wasn't BJGE fault (9 carries for 14 yards and a 1.6 YPC average) , but Danny Woodhead ran 9 times for 54 yards for a 6.0 average. Also against Baltimore when BJGE also failed miserably (10 carries for 20 yards for a 2.0 YPC average), Woodhead got 11 carries for 63 yards for a 5.7 YPC average.

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That's because Woodhead's gains were out of the PA or draw. When BJGE was in there, they stacked the box. It was Cleveland's goal to really stop the run so that they could make our offense one dimensional.

Also why are you not taking issue with Crumpler's blocking? He did not do too well that day.

mgteich said:

You disagree without even opinions to back up your position. Which compettive teams are starting a worse running back? Deus gave his answer and I agree. What is you answer?

I have not used the labels you mention. I would certainly be well satisfied if we had an "average" starting running back.

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I don't back up my position with opinions and I don't know what Deus Irate said because he's on the ignore list.

You will have to explain how BJGE is the worse starting RB.

See the summary below from the previous post by Deus. Which running backs do YOU think Green Ellis should be considered better than?
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IMO, the Packers are the only team with 6 wins or more who do not have a better running back than do the Patriots (not counting Taylor in this), and that's only because Grant is on the IR.

Jets: Greene/Thomlinson
Steelers: Mendenhall
Ravens: Rice/McGahee
Colts: Addai (and I'm not an Addai fan, at all)
Giants: Bradshaw
Eagles: McCoy
Bears: Forte
Falcons: Turner
Saints: Thomas
Bucs: Blount, Williamson

Patspsycho said:

I don't back up my position with opinions and I don't know what Deus Irate said because he's on the ignore list.

You will have to explain how BJGE is the worse starting RB.

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Patspsycho said:

Of course BB is not going to throw anyone under the bus, but it is very revealing that in answer to a very general question, that the first thing that should come to BB's mind is consistency.

Also you have not shown how you can tell the difference between BJGE having a bad day, the OL not doing its job, or if it was a case of the gameplan leaving the run game, like they did in Cleveland when they got into a deep hole.

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The next time Belichick gives a really revealing answer in a press conference, it will be his first. Belichick doesn't give crap in a press conference. It is only revealing to you because you want it to be revealing.

So when BJGE runs well, it is because he is good. When BJGE doesn't run well, it is the offensive line or the gameplan? Really?!? I know Belichick goes into games say "If we can get 20-30 yards on the ground, we will win this game". It is also ironic that the o-line seems to only play bad when BJGE isn't running well and not when Brady is passing or Woodhead is running the ball.

Give it up. BJGE is your binkie any you refuse to accept the fact that he is the picture of inconsistency. It is because he is a limited runner. When he has great conditions, he runs well. If the holes aren't there, he cannot make his own opportunities like good backs do.

Patspsycho said:

That's because Woodhead's gains were out of the PA or draw. When BJGE was in there, they stacked the box. It was Cleveland's goal to really stop the run so that they could make our offense one dimensional.

Also why are you not taking issue with Crumpler's blocking? He did not do too well that day.

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Of course, BJGE didn't run well in three of the last five games because Crumpler had ONE BAD GAME. It was the risidual affects of a game by a TE that can send a RB spiraling.

As for Woodhead, he has been running out of the I formation this year. A lot of times he runs the draw, but not exclusively. Teams don't stack the box against the Pats ever. They are happy to let the Pats run as long as it takes the ball out of Brady's hands. Let's not make it seem like teams put 8 or 9 guys in the box against the Pats except for rare occassions or certain situations (3rd and 1).

Rob0729 said:

Of course, BJGE didn't run well in three of the last five games because Crumpler had ONE BAD GAME. It was the risidual affects of a game by a TE that can send a RB spiraling.

As for Woodhead, he has been running out of the I formation this year. A lot of times he runs the draw, but not exclusively. Teams don't stack the box against the Pats ever. They are happy to let the Pats run as long as it takes the ball out of Brady's hands. Let's not make it seem like teams put 8 or 9 guys in the box against the Pats except for rare occassions or certain situations (3rd and 1).

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Woodhead is a change of pace back, regardless of what formation he's running out of. The only times I remember him running when Brady is under center is in the no huddle.

wdkantro2 said:

Woodhead is a change of pace back, regardless of what formation he's running out of. The only times I remember him running when Brady is under center is in the no huddle.

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Woodhead has only rushed 17 times when Brady was in shotgun. He has rushed 46 times this season. So about 63% of the time that Woodhead has rushed this season, Brady has been under center. Now to how many of those were traditional runs (Woodhead has gotten a few runs where he was lined outside and they ran a reverse, but of course Brady is typically in shotgun for these plays because he typically has an empty backfield), I am not sure.

Danny Woodhead - Stats, Bio – New England Patriots – NFL Football – SI.com

As for him being a change of pace back, yes and no. That is traditionally his role, but in games like Baltimore and Cleveland he became the every down back because BJGE was ineffective.

I'm happy with our Firm-Woody backfield.

Not many team has backfields as good at doing their job as Firm-Woody, and I'm sure others would like to have their own Firm-Woody, given its usefulness.

Rob0729 said:

Woodhead has only rushed 17 times when Brady was in shotgun. He has rushed 46 times this season. So about 63% of the time that Woodhead has rushed this season, Brady has been under center. Now to how many of those were traditional runs (Woodhead has gotten a few runs where he was lined outside and they ran a reverse, but of course Brady is typically in shotgun for these plays because he typically has an empty backfield), I am not sure.

Danny Woodhead - Stats, Bio – New England Patriots – NFL Football – SI.com

As for him being a change of pace back, yes and no. That is traditionally his role, but in games like Baltimore and Cleveland he became the every down back because BJGE was ineffective.

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In my non-expert opinion, Woodhead is a better pure runner than BJGE. Seems to have better vision and more straight-line speed and lateral quickness.

With that said, BJGE obviously has more size and power which in some situations can help him be more effective.

Deus Irae said:

Again, you obviously don't know what cherrypicking is. I'll leave it at that.

As for the YPC,/game, let me use some emphasis here:

I WAS RESPONDING TO PEOPLE WHO HAD USED YPC/GAME, BUT FOR ONLY ONE GAME. I EXPANDED THE YPC/GAME TO INCLUDE EVERY REGULAR SEASON GAME PLAYED BY EACH PLAYER.

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But shouldn't you try to make the data as relevent to the conversation as possible?
Tom Brady's career stats before this year started:
3084yds per year
22.5TDs per year
9.9INTs per year

However, does this tell the proper picture since he didn't really play in 2000 or 2008?
Without those 2 years:
3845yds per year
28TDs per year
12 INTs per year

Which of these sets of statistics would you say more accurately describes Brady's ability?
The Pats have been a RB by committee which means no RB is going to have AP type stats. To accurately compare them by using statistics (rather than just opinion, which will result in an argument that has no end) you must agree on some sort of basis.
I think on paper and opinion, anyone other than Lawfirm's mother would prefer Peterson on the field over him. However, when you get in to some of the middle of the pack RBs you still have to take in to account that they are the #1 back on a team without Tom Brady. Comparing them game to game or year to year will greatly skew the stats.

TBradyOwnsYou said:

But shouldn't you try to make the data as relevent to the conversation as possible?

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The conversation was ypc/game and, more pointedly, bad ypc/game. My response was all about ypc/game, focusing on the bad ypc/game.


It's tough to be more relevant than that.

mgteich said:

See the summary below from the previous post by Deus. Which running backs do YOU think Green Ellis should be considered better than?
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IMO, the Packers are the only team with 6 wins or more who do not have a better running back than do the Patriots (not counting Taylor in this), and that's only because Grant is on the IR.

Jets: Greene/Thomlinson
Steelers: Mendenhall
Ravens: Rice/McGahee
Colts: Addai (and I'm not an Addai fan, at all)
Giants: Bradshaw
Eagles: McCoy
Bears: Forte
Falcons: Turner
Saints: Thomas
Bucs: Blount, Williamson

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All I see is a list with no explanation of why they are ordered the way they are.