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Reiss: An ominous sign?


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Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

You can't be this stupid.

Take a look in the mirror and say that again.

He was cut from the team and is back on the team. That is how the PS works. So "Ohrnberger - Cut" is not the same as "O'Connell - Cut". Making the distinction that he is still on the team and may yet contribute to the Pats is completely relevant in that context.

He is not on the team. He is on the practice squad. The team is comprised of 53 players, 45 of whom are active for any particular game.

The Pats tried to upgrade the back of the OL depth chart while still keeping prospects on the PS (didn't work with Larsen). Why does this bother you so much?

Did you not bother reading what I'd posted before you jumped into this?

It's pretty clear that the Patriots failed to repair obvious holes. Desperation moves have begun.


Hopefully, they'll be successful.

There are obvious problems that the team hasn't fixed. I'm hoping the moves being made solve the problems. Where that's supposed to be me being bothered is a question I'll leave to you.
 
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Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

I'm bored with you, but I'll leave you with your greatest hits from this thread:

He is not on the team. He is on the practice squad.

You have no idea what happened...The Patriots did something to piss off Mankins when they didn't have to.

What was done is, again, irrelevant...He's not playing because it was done.

There's no round where picks not making it is an uncommon thing

the Patriots jettisoned all their players in order to bring in players from other teams that couldn't make it there.

You have no idea what their potential is, yet you're making this claim...[Ojinnaka] Sucks. I've seen him play.

...irrelevant...irrelevant...irrelevant...irrelevant...irrelevant...irrelevant...
 
If you only look for misses that is all you are going to find. Julian Edelman, Jake Ingram, Zoltan Mesko, Myron Pryor, Jonathan Wilhite, and Matt Slater are all on the roster from those drafts, as well as five undrafted free agents originally signed by the Pats; all came in the same rounds you mentioned.

Without knowing the percentage of players that were drafted in these rounds that make a playoff team's roster and contribute, we have no way of knowing if the Pats are doing an average job with these late round picks, below average, or even above average. We're comparing success and stats in a vacuum, with no norm to compare it to.

That specific point was only made toward offensive line picks in the past few years. I think 0 for 7 on mid to late round olineman is enough of a sample size to declare that area a major failure in recent years. We can debate other areas of drafting and how successful/unsuccessful the Pats have been as well. I certainly give them credit for landing Edelman late.
 
That specific point was only made toward offensive line picks in the past few years. I think 0 for 7 on mid to late round olineman is enough of a sample size to declare that area a major failure in recent years. We can debate other areas of drafting and how successful/unsuccessful the Pats have been as well. I certainly give them credit for landing Edelman late.
Okay, I'll keep the discussion limited to the offensive line. At first glance 0 for 7 would shout major failure, but let's take a closer look.

From 2009 there is Ohrnberger (4th round, 123rd overall.) I don't think you'll find too much argument that he has been a disapointment thus far. Bussey (5th, 170) has been injured. Jake Ingram (6.198) has done his job but I'll presume your not counting the Long Snapper.

2007 was a very weak draft, especially in the later rounds. From the 4th round on there are only about a dozen names that I recognize as still being in the NFL today, and two of those are kickers. Almost half of these OL 'failures' come from this draft: Clint Oldenburg (5.171), Corey Hilliard (6.209) and Mike Elgin (7.247)

From 2006 there was Ryan O'Callaghan (5.136) and Dan Stevenson (6.205). Stevenson couldn't crack the lineup of a team that went 16-0, what a waste of the 205th draft pick. While O'Callaghan may be viewed as a diappointment, he did play in 26 games in his two seasons for the Pats, starting 7 times.


Now let's figure what are the chances of a late round pick not only making the roster, but of having an impact on a team that (a) was completely set at all five starting positions, and (b) good enough to go 49-15 over that time period?

In addition the team did use one early round draft pick (Vollmer) on the line, which in turn made one less backup roster position available for these other players. Another roster spot was being taken up by Russ Hochstein, until he departed.

Then there are players like Ryan Wendell, who will be the top backup of the interior line, but he doesn't count in your eyes because he was signed as an undrafted free agent, as opposed to being taken late in the 7th round. Same goes for players like Mark LeVoir and Dan Connolly, who don't count because they were originally signed as undrafted free agents on another team and spent a minimal amount of time elsewhere.


So if you want to narrow your focus to only one positional unit, exclude early draft picks, exclude undrafted free agents, and exclude any players that did not sign their first contract with the Patriots, then I suppose I would have to agree that the Pats scouting department and coaches are just doing a horrible job of evaluating talent. A "major failure" as you put it. Let's fire the whole staff, blow the whole thing up, clean house from top to bottom, and start all over again as if this was an expansion team. That sound good?

/rant
 
Okay, I'll keep the discussion limited to the offensive line. At first glance 0 for 7 would shout major failure, but let's take a closer look.

From 2009 there is Ohrnberger (4th round, 123rd overall.) I don't think you'll find too much argument that he has been a disapointment thus far. Bussey (5th, 170) has been injured. Jake Ingram (6.198) has done his job but I'll presume your not counting the Long Snapper.

2007 was a very weak draft, especially in the later rounds. From the 4th round on there are only about a dozen names that I recognize as still being in the NFL today, and two of those are kickers. Almost half of these OL 'failures' come from this draft: Clint Oldenburg (5.171), Corey Hilliard (6.209) and Mike Elgin (7.247)

From 2006 there was Ryan O'Callaghan (5.136) and Dan Stevenson (6.205). Stevenson couldn't crack the lineup of a team that went 16-0, what a waste of the 205th draft pick. While O'Callaghan may be viewed as a diappointment, he did play in 26 games in his two seasons for the Pats, starting 7 times.


Now let's figure what are the chances of a late round pick not only making the roster, but of having an impact on a team that (a) was completely set at all five starting positions, and (b) good enough to go 49-15 over that time period?

In addition the team did use one early round draft pick (Vollmer) on the line, which in turn made one less backup roster position available for these other players. Another roster spot was being taken up by Russ Hochstein, until he departed.

Then there are players like Ryan Wendell, who will be the top backup of the interior line, but he doesn't count in your eyes because he was signed as an undrafted free agent, as opposed to being taken late in the 7th round. Same goes for players like Mark LeVoir and Dan Connolly, who don't count because they were originally signed as undrafted free agents on another team and spent a minimal amount of time elsewhere.


So if you want to narrow your focus to only one positional unit, exclude early draft picks, exclude undrafted free agents, and exclude any players that did not sign their first contract with the Patriots, then I suppose I would have to agree that the Pats scouting department and coaches are just doing a horrible job of evaluating talent. A "major failure" as you put it. Let's fire the whole staff, blow the whole thing up, clean house from top to bottom, and start all over again as if this was an expansion team. That sound good?

/rant

Good post. It's bizarre to me how many posters will use cherry-picked data to argue some spurious point.
 
So who SHOULD the Patriots draft with the #1 pick in the 2011 Draft, after they go 0-16?? :p
 
They will trade down for a lower 1st rounder and a second in 2012 :D
 
Surprised this thread is so big. I skipped the middle, but get the general gist. My opinion.

The draft is not like filling out a bingo card. There is no inherent value in using all your picks, or in searching the waiver wire for prospects. It all depends what you are trying to accomplish.

We have had a veteran defense for years. We knew who was starting, and filled in with backups, be they picks or
acquisitions. Probably some were cheap and hardworking, others smart but limited. Role players.

Now we're looking for over achievers. why keep lackluster vets or players that don't quite fit when we can find similar players to our low rounders, try them out and maybe get lucky?

That's all this is. Murrell, Cunningham, Nink aren't going to develop while Burgess is playing. McKenzie might have made it as a SILB, but we have one, maybe we find a versatile guy in that spot. Nothing is valuable like a piece of gold, a player is only valuable if he might fill a job you need filled. having disgruntled players with limited versatility that believe they should be starting, is not a positive thing. They seem to like McKenzie so they give him an opportunity elsewhere, it enhances your reputation among players.

The Pats defense is wide open. If they find a guy that has a bit better fit that's hungry, they're going to sign him.
 
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Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

And that faith was obviously misplaced in 2009. :confused2:

Hold on, didn't they make the playoffs in 2009? Didn't they win their division?
 
That specific point was only made toward offensive line picks in the past few years. I think 0 for 7 on mid to late round olineman is enough of a sample size to declare that area a major failure in recent years. We can debate other areas of drafting and how successful/unsuccessful the Pats have been as well. I certainly give them credit for landing Edelman late.

0 for 7 is about 1 guy off from what is expected on late round players.


The vast majority of late round players never amount to anything.
 
Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

Hold on, didn't they make the playoffs in 2009? Didn't they win their division?

If I recall the Pats haven't won a single football game in the BB era. How is this guy still a head coach?
 
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Nothing against Reiss, by the way. finding an interesting angle for a column is his job.:)
 
Re: Reiss:An ominous sign ?

I'm bored with you, but I'll leave you with your greatest hits from this thread:

I agree that DI is tedious, but you're just encouraging him. Maybe can all just meet up on FireJoeMorgan.com and talk about the Patriots there.
 
Being "sellers" last year didn't really help, did it? The 51-53 guys on the roster don't decide championships.
 
DI has spent a lot of time convincing everyone that the Pats are terrible and the offensive line is a total disaster, comparable to the Cowboys or Jets offensive lines.

In reality, as Phil Simms was told by Belichick, he feels has has 5 Left Offensive Tackles capable players on his OL. In "Belichick speak" there are LOTs and everybody else in evaluating Offensive linemen.

That is not saying there are five "Star-ing" LOTs; some are, some are, merely competent players who you could (AND DID!!) get by with, on a winning club. Light, Volker, the LOT heir apparent, Kaczur, have played LOT for more than one game, and played well. At reserves, LeVoir has turned in a competent game or two, as has Ojinnaka, for Div champ Falcons. So his comment is true, and not smoke.

There is some talent across the other four positions. The two Guards Neal and Connolly, were UDFAs, each took going on four years, to earn starting positions. On the PS is a 4th rounder learning in his second year on the Team, as both a G/C,and right on scheduel. And there are two others Kaczur and Mankins who are far from chicken feathers, and on the Team, but not currently available.

OTOH, all of Deus Iraes' sometimes reasonable, and sometimes unreasonably pessimistic views, have been obsoleted by the reality of 38-24 over the AFCN champions, the Cincinnati Bengals.

The evidence is the 2010 edition of the Patriots is not a 5-11 team; and there is reason to believe it may be an 11-5 team.
 
DI has spent a lot of time convincing everyone that the Pats are terrible and the offensive line is a total disaster, comparable to the Cowboys or Jets offensive lines.

Kind of a ridiculous statement on your part when you point to the Cowboys, although calling the Patriots O-line comparable to the Jets O-line does have some validity. Both are bringing back 4 spots and have a major question mark at the 5th spot. Both are very questionable when it comes to depth.

In reality, as Phil Simms was told by Belichick, he feels has has 5 Left Offensive Tackles capable players on his OL. In "Belichick speak" there are LOTs and everybody else in evaluating Offensive linemen.

That is not saying there are five "Star-ing" LOTs; some are, some are, merely competent players who you could (AND DID!!) get by with, on a winning club. Light, Volker, the LOT heir apparent, Kaczur, have played LOT for more than one game, and played well. At reserves, LeVoir has turned in a competent game or two, as has Ojinnaka, for Div champ Falcons. So his comment is true, and not smoke.

LeVoir and Ojinnaka are very bad. Kaczur is underrated by many on this board.

There is some talent across the other four positions. The two Guards Neal and Connolly, were UDFAs, each took going on four years, to earn starting positions. On the PS is a 4th rounder learning in his second year on the Team, as both a G/C,and right on scheduel. And there are two others Kaczur and Mankins who are far from chicken feathers, and on the Team, but not currently available.

Connolly didn't earn his starting position. He's the third string left guard. He got his starting position because the two players in front of him are unavailable.

OTOH, all of Deus Iraes' sometimes reasonable, and sometimes unreasonably pessimistic views, have been obsoleted by the reality of 38-24 over the AFCN champions, the Cincinnati Bengals.

Now, I'll grant that I've avoided a couple of threads that were pretty clearly going to be idiotic in nature, so I can't rank this claim against everything else posted today, but this is still a very silly claim on your part. You're trying to judge an entire season based upon one game. Here, let me point something out to you:

Koppen was the free offensive lineman at times and cleaning the pocket is when he puts his head on a swivel and helps the other offensive linemen with a late double-team. He helped Connolly with a delayed double-team at times. That opened passing lanes for Brady and helped him have more time.

Tedy Bruschi's five observations from the New England Patriots' opening win - ESPN Boston

Connolly, the big question mark on this offensive line, was getting help from a guy who's got to take the brunt of the initial assault. That's fine against a team like the Bengals, but it's much less likely to work out against teams that can pressure up the middle. When Jenkins/Ngata/etc... are taking up Koppen's time, Connolly will have his time to show what he can do.

The evidence is the 2010 edition of the Patriots is not a 5-11 team; and there is reason to believe it may be an 11-5 team.

I've consistently stated that I expect the Patriots to win the division. When we did the preseason game-by-game assessment of the Patriots versus the schedule, I had them up around 14-2, and noted that I'd have to find more losses for them because that was probably being overly optimistic.

In short, you make the same mistakes that so many others here do. You confuse analysis and troubleshooting with final judgment. Then again, calling me out specifically while not having anything to bring to the table demonstrates that you're really just posting about an agenda, and not about anything factual.
 
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I think 0 for 7 on mid to late round olineman is enough of a sample size to declare that area a major failure in recent years.

I don't agree. That's pretty average. If you look at an average NFL roster, you aren't going to find more than one late round OL pick that the team made and that has stuck for more than a couple of years.

The purpose of the late rounds is to throw a lot at a wall and hope that one or two sticks. It's about being Babe Ruth, and striking out three times to hit a home run, only it is OK to strike out five to ten times first.

The Pats have decided clearly that the way to bring youth into the team is in the second and third rounds. The new defense and WR/TE corps is the result.
 
I agree with all these statements. But then, it seems obvious that Connolly is the question mark. We don't have issues with Light, Koppen, Neal and Vollmer.

I also agree that many underestimate the quality of Kaczur's play. When he comes back, we will have Kaczur and Wendell as backups, or Connolly and Wendell as backups, an upgrade over LeVoir. Obviously signing Mankins and having Kaczur healthy would be even better.

While you may think that LeVoir and Ojinnaka are weak players, I don't think that they are terrible as #8 and #9 OL's. Having players who have started in the league at #8 and #9 is a plus.

.

Connolly didn't earn his starting position. He's the third string left guard. He got his starting position because the two players in front of him are unavailable.

Connolly, the big question mark on this offensive line, was getting help from a guy who's got to take the brunt of the initial assault. That's fine against a team like the Bengals, but it's much less likely to work out against teams that can pressure up the middle. When Jenkins/Ngata/etc... are taking up Koppen's time, Connolly will have his time to show what he can do.

I've consistently stated that I expect the Patriots to win the division. .
 
I agree with all these statements. But then, it seems obvious that Connolly is the question mark. We don't have issues with Light, Koppen, Neal and Vollmer.

It seems obvious to you and I. To a lot of homers, though, it seems to border on heresy to point out that the 3rd string guard is a question mark.

I also agree that many underestimate the quality of Kaczur's play. When he comes back, we will have Kaczur and Wendell as backups, or Connolly and Wendell as backups, an upgrade over LeVoir. Obviously signing Mankins and having Kaczur healthy would be even better.

While you may think that LeVoir and Ojinnaka are weak players, I don't think that they are terrible as #8 and #9 OL's. Having players who have started in the league at #8 and #9 is a plus.

LeVoir has demonstrated a general level of incompetence. Ojinnaka was going to get cut by the Saints, according to reports. He was also suspended for a game. Despite that, the Patriots traded for him. How that says anything positive about the depth on the offensive line is something I just can't seem to grasp, and how considering him a plus is something I just don't get. Alex Barron has started in the league too. That wasn't a plus for Dallas last night.
 
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I don't mind have a player of the quality of Alex Barron on the team as an inactive backup, to be activated as the Game Day backup only if there were an injury, actually playing only if there are two injuries.

I don't think that we can afford to have top players as the #8 and #9 OL's.



It seems obvious to you and I. To a lot of homers, though, it seems to border on heresy to point out that the 3rd string guard is a question mark.

LeVoir has demonstrated a general level of incompetence. Ojinnaka was going to get cut by the Saints, according to reports. He was also suspended for a game. Despite that, the Patriots traded for him. How that says anything positive about the depth on the offensive line is something I just can't seem to grasp, and how considering him a plus is something I just don't get. Alex Barron has started in the league too. That wasn't a plus for Dallas last night.
 
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