OT: Talk about a killer draft

klinefan said:

Nonsense you homer. If that's true then a team which signs a top FA while giving up NO DRAFT PICKS should be considered to have an awesome draft. Better than any team that trades a draft pick for a player like we did. After all they didn't give up any picks and got a great player.

The point of the draft is you get good players cheap. If you give up a pick to get a top player (like Moss was) but you have to pay him top dollar, then it isn't as GOOD.

How many 5-7th rounders in that draft? And not one of them amounted to squat. You'd think by the law of averages he'd hit one once in a while. Blind pig finds the acorn type of thing.

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Do you know the actual percentages of 6th and 7th rounders to A make a team and B become a top teer player? just because you have numerous doesn't mean you will hit on one. if your percentage is 5% and you have 4 picks... doesn't mean you should hit... even on average. Apparently 1st round has a 75% success rate 2nd round 50% 3rd round around 25-30% and it dropps off from there. So really getting a starting saftey for 2 years with on 1st round pick is well done in reality. the 4th-7thers are as stats show lotteries some teams hit and are praised for being good drafters ... tom brady, matt cassel, asante samuel... jay ratlif is amoung them too but apparently if we don't hit we are bad drafters. I woul love to see some of these people on this board draft causse we are all heind seight experts

Deus Irae said:

There really haven't been. Frankly, that's one of the problems with people today. Everyone thinks every pick needs to yield an All-Pro. That's not how it works.

What has happened is something that's overlooked by people trying to play "This guy was available!" instead of reading the pattern of the drafts. 2007 was an excellent draft for the team, because it was the primary reason for the team to jump to 16-0.

However, the problem with recent Patriots drafts hasn't been any particularly high failure rate, because that hasn't existed. The problem has been that the 'hits' have been singles and doubles instead of home runs. Mayo was DROY last year, Wilhite is fine as a nickel corner, Wheatley looked pretty good last year until his injury, Slater is a solid special teams player and Crable's had the Devil's own luck. I hated the drafting of a QB with that 3rd round pick, but that draft is still fine. It's just not spectacular. 2007 netted 3 Pro Bowlers. 2009 looks like it's netted future starters in Butler, Vollmer and Edelman (even if only because the best slot receiver in the game will be out), a long snapper in Ingram, a backup in Pryor, a potential starter in Chung, and other players that we just don't know enough about yet. That's a very solid looking draft to this point.

The problem is that solid doesn't win Super Bowls year after year. Even good doesn't do that. You need phenomenal, and that's why the league stacks the deck against the good teams.

It's not about "Kevin Boss was available". It's about "Meriweather is good, but he's not Rodney Harrison". Hell, if they take Beason, as in your "but this guy!", they need a safety, and Mayo probably isn't drafted. And it's not as if Beason has been leading the Panthers defense into the promised land.

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i think what you say makes a lot of sense. the pats have drafted some good to very good players but no one spectacular. some of the picks from 2005 on may turn out to be great but not yet.

Synovia said:

When almost all of your picks are from the 5th round on, and you're a playoff team, thats pretty much expected.


Not to mention, most of those guys are still in the NFL.

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if by most you mean less then half (4/9) then yes.

Deus Irae said:

There really haven't been. Frankly, that's one of the problems with people today. Everyone thinks every pick needs to yield an All-Pro. That's not how it works.

What has happened is something that's overlooked by people trying to play "This guy was available!" instead of reading the pattern of the drafts. 2007 was an excellent draft for the team, because it was the primary reason for the team to jump to 16-0.

However, the problem with recent Patriots drafts hasn't been any particularly high failure rate, because that hasn't existed. The problem has been that the 'hits' have been singles and doubles instead of home runs. Mayo was DROY last year, Wilhite is fine as a nickel corner, Wheatley looked pretty good last year until his injury, Slater is a solid special teams player and Crable's had the Devil's own luck. I hated the drafting of a QB with that 3rd round pick, but that draft is still fine. It's just not spectacular. 2007 netted 3 Pro Bowlers. 2009 looks like it's netted future starters in Butler, Vollmer and Edelman (even if only because the best slot receiver in the game will be out), a long snapper in Ingram, a backup in Pryor, a potential starter in Chung, and other players that we just don't know enough about yet. That's a very solid looking draft to this point.

The problem is that solid doesn't win Super Bowls year after year. Even good doesn't do that. You need phenomenal, and that's why the league stacks the deck against the good teams.

It's not about "Kevin Boss was available". It's about "Meriweather is good, but he's not Rodney Harrison". Hell, if they take Beason, as in your "but this guy!", they need a safety, and Mayo probably isn't drafted. And it's not as if Beason has been leading the Panthers defense into the promised land.

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A little piece of advice, do not use Terrance Wheatley as an example of a good draft pick if you want to be taken seriously.

tuckeverlasting said:

yeah, these people that don't include moss and welker in that draft have no clue. WELKER AND MOSS WERE ACQUIRED BY DRAFT PICKS FROM THAT DRAFT, THUS YOU MUST INCLUDE THEM WHEN TALKING ABOUT THAT DRAFT. AND TRADING A FIRST TO SF FOR A FIRST THE NEXT YEAR IS GRAVY. personally, all things considered, i think they had a great draft that year.

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It's not fair to count Moss, Welker, or Mayo.

However, it's also not fair to count the absence of the various traded picks against the draft.

The Pats had one high pick in the draft, and they turned it into a Pro Bowler.

They struck out on all their medium-to-low picks.

It was a successful draft.

Deus Irae said:

There really haven't been. Frankly, that's one of the problems with people today. Everyone thinks every pick needs to yield an All-Pro. That's not how it works.

What has happened is something that's overlooked by people trying to play "This guy was available!" instead of reading the pattern of the drafts. 2007 was an excellent draft for the team, because it was the primary reason for the team to jump to 16-0.

However, the problem with recent Patriots drafts hasn't been any particularly high failure rate, because that hasn't existed. The problem has been that the 'hits' have been singles and doubles instead of home runs. Mayo was DROY last year, Wilhite is fine as a nickel corner, Wheatley looked pretty good last year until his injury, Slater is a solid special teams player and Crable's had the Devil's own luck. I hated the drafting of a QB with that 3rd round pick, but that draft is still fine. It's just not spectacular. 2007 netted 3 Pro Bowlers. 2009 looks like it's netted future starters in Butler, Vollmer and Edelman (even if only because the best slot receiver in the game will be out), a long snapper in Ingram, a backup in Pryor, a potential starter in Chung, and other players that we just don't know enough about yet. That's a very solid looking draft to this point.

The problem is that solid doesn't win Super Bowls year after year. Even good doesn't do that. You need phenomenal, and that's why the league stacks the deck against the good teams.

It's not about "Kevin Boss was available". It's about "Meriweather is good, but he's not Rodney Harrison". Hell, if they take Beason, as in your "but this guy!", they need a safety, and Mayo probably isn't drafted. And it's not as if Beason has been leading the Panthers defense into the promised land.

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I think you're overstating the Patriots success in recent drafts. Granted the picks in 2007 that netted Moss and Welker have to be lumped in with the value added to the franchise via the draft, but since 2006 the Patriots have not by any means done a good job of selecting talent with their picks.

Between 2006 and 2008(I left out the 2009 draft because 1 year isn't really a fair amount of time to make an accurate judgement on its impact), the Patriots had 23 draft picks. Of these 23 players selected, only 3 have gone on to earn starting roles with the teams (Mayo, Gostkowski, and Meriweather), 5 are playing in supporting/back up roles (Maroney, Wheatley, Wilhite, Slater, and Crable), and 15 are no longer on the team with a large amount being cut before the end of their first training camp. Furthermore, you have consider how much longer the likes of Wheatley, Wilhite, Slater, Crable, and Maroney will be on the team given their individual performances, and in the case of some ability to stay healthy.

Sure, the NFL draft isn't a sure thing and the chances of selecting an impact player in the later rounds is very unlikely, but you can't have 60+% of your picks go on to not make any impact for your organization. The drafts from 2003-2005 netted us a glut of starters (Wilfork, Watson, Warren, Cassel, Samuel, Mankins, Kaczur, among others).

This team needs a few homeruns in the upcoming draft if they hope to turn it around sometime soon.

TommyBrady12 said:

nope, we don't. thus, the reason why the pats are suffering today and may suffer for a few more years. the 2005-2008 drafts were average for the most part. of course, we made a couple of very good picks over the years but never had that one spectacular draft. And BB homers, please don't bring up the welker and moss trades. Those were trades, not draft picks.

Championship teams are built in the 2nd-7th rounds of the draft. For the pats sake, I hope the 2009 draft pans out to be great.

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We have had average drafts which is sad considering all the picks we had.

My feel for this team at this moment in time is that the draft process has been a disapointment. We have had a stellar LB crew for years, and one would think we could have built up an excellent crew of back-ups with 3-4-5 rounders. But all we have are FA types.

The same could be said for the DL, until last year.

But also there has been a time period where this team was considered "stocked", and the braintrust attemted to keep that group together. Then in the course of 2 years we lose a TON of talent.

So I'm going with the drafting has been mediocre, with the negative aspect of keeping an aging team together for too long.

Doesn't really matter tho, does it, we need some stellar drafts going forward.

Oh, and Parcells draft of Law, Ted Johnson, Curtis Martin wasn't too bad either, Parcells is good at picking groceries

That's the type of draft we need. Except instead of a NT get a ILB to line up with Mayo. And I'd rather get a productive wideout than HB. Resign Wilfork and Mankins, get help on the interior OL through FA and we dominate the next 5 years.

Deus Irae said:

There really haven't been. Frankly, that's one of the problems with people today. Everyone thinks every pick needs to yield an All-Pro. That's not how it works.

What has happened is something that's overlooked by people trying to play "This guy was available!" instead of reading the pattern of the drafts. 2007 was an excellent draft for the team, because it was the primary reason for the team to jump to 16-0.

However, the problem with recent Patriots drafts hasn't been any particularly high failure rate, because that hasn't existed. The problem has been that the 'hits' have been singles and doubles instead of home runs. Mayo was DROY last year, Wilhite is fine as a nickel corner, Wheatley looked pretty good last year until his injury, Slater is a solid special teams player and Crable's had the Devil's own luck. I hated the drafting of a QB with that 3rd round pick, but that draft is still fine. It's just not spectacular. 2007 netted 3 Pro Bowlers. 2009 looks like it's netted future starters in Butler, Vollmer and Edelman (even if only because the best slot receiver in the game will be out), a long snapper in Ingram, a backup in Pryor, a potential starter in Chung, and other players that we just don't know enough about yet. That's a very solid looking draft to this point.

The problem is that solid doesn't win Super Bowls year after year. Even good doesn't do that. You need phenomenal, and that's why the league stacks the deck against the good teams.

It's not about "Kevin Boss was available". It's about "Meriweather is good, but he's not Rodney Harrison". Hell, if they take Beason, as in your "but this guy!", they need a safety, and Mayo probably isn't drafted. And it's not as if Beason has been leading the Panthers defense into the promised land.

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That right there. That's the Bill Simmons mentality. The Simmons clones always go "We could have had Jones Drew, Ray Rice, Shonne Greene, etc.". It's annoying.

Agree with you on the rest.

Last years draft is going to look pretty good in a couple years..... Of course there are players we should have taken in hindsight, but I think the 4, 2nd round picks are going to acquit themselves well. Not to mention, M. Pryor and J. Edelman. We have scooped up allot of good young talent the last two years we need to find a way to integrate them with some vet. leadership and get to a scheme that best suits their skill set.

klinefan said:

The point of the draft is you get good players cheap. If you give up a pick to get a top player (like Moss was) but you have to pay him top dollar, then it isn't as GOOD.

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We know. That's why trading those 2nd, 4th and 7th round picks for Moss and Welker was such a great deal. Welker's contract especially is ridiculous for the production he provides.

alvinnf said:

Last years draft is going to look pretty good in a couple years..... Of course there are players we should have taken in hindsight, but I think the 4, 2nd round picks are going to acquit themselves well. Not to mention, M. Pryor and J. Edelman. We have scooped up allot of good young talent the last two years we need to find a way to integrate them with some vet. leadership and get to a scheme that best suits their skill set.

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Right now it looks like they locked up 2 starters on offense in Edelman and Vollmer which compared to previous drafts is a huge success. Objectively though this could be a huge disappointment for what could have been, although it was definitely their best draft in years.

Pryor and Butler showed they can play but they still have a lot to prove and the fact that Chung couldn't work his way into the starting rotation after Sanders and McGowan played their way out of it is really disconcerting. Ron Brace has thus far been a waste of a draft pick and thinking that they trading down twice instead of taking Clay Matthews will haunt my dreams forever. Also passing on James Laurinaitis hurts too when you take a look at our LB corps.

The jury is still out on Tyrone McKenzie and Brandon Tate because of their injuries. If one of them can earn a spot and one of Butler and Chung pans out then this team might have had a franchise saving draft.

the wrothbroughterer said:

I think you're overstating the Patriots success in recent drafts. Granted the picks in 2007 that netted Moss and Welker have to be lumped in with the value added to the franchise via the draft, but since 2006 the Patriots have not by any means done a good job of selecting talent with their picks.

Between 2006 and 2008(I left out the 2009 draft because 1 year isn't really a fair amount of time to make an accurate judgement on its impact), the Patriots had 23 draft picks. Of these 23 players selected, only 3 have gone on to earn starting roles with the teams (Mayo, Gostkowski, and Meriweather), 5 are playing in supporting/back up roles (Maroney, Wheatley, Wilhite, Slater, and Crable), and 15 are no longer on the team with a large amount being cut before the end of their first training camp. Furthermore, you have consider how much longer the likes of Wheatley, Wilhite, Slater, Crable, and Maroney will be on the team given their individual performances, and in the case of some ability to stay healthy.

Sure, the NFL draft isn't a sure thing and the chances of selecting an impact player in the later rounds is very unlikely, but you can't have 60+% of your picks go on to not make any impact for your organization. The drafts from 2003-2005 netted us a glut of starters (Wilfork, Watson, Warren, Cassel, Samuel, Mankins, Kaczur, among others).

This team needs a few homeruns in the upcoming draft if they hope to turn it around sometime soon.

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You're doing precisely the sort of non-analysis "analysis" that I was bemoaning:

First, the person had said past 3 drafts, and you skipped the last year in favor of 2006, thinking it makes your point look stronger.

Second, you give a nod to Moss/Welker, but you minimize their importance as much as possible

Third, you play the numbers game as if all picks are equal, when they aren't. Here, I'll even incorporate 2006 for you:

Rounds 1-3
2006: Maroney, Jackson, Thomas
2007: Meriweather
2008: Mayo, Wheatley, Crable, O'Connell
2009: Chung, Brace, Butler, Vollmer, Tate, McKenzie


Round 4
2006: Mills, Gostkowski
2007: Brown
2008: Wilhite
2009: Ohrnberger

Rounds 5-7
2006: O'Callaghan, Mincey, Stevenson, Smith, Andrews
2007: Oldenburg, Rogers, Richardson, Hairston, Hilliard, Lua, Elgin
2008: Slater, Ruud
2009: Bussey, Ingram, Pryor, Edelman, Richard

So, a 4 year breakdown:
rounds 1-3: 14 picks, with 10 of the 14 coming in just the past 2 years

1 is a clear bust (Jackson), who suffered injury, meaning the degree of "Bust might have been affected

1 is a likely bust (O'Connell) who was given the "Here's your hat, what's your hurry?" treatment

4 are multiple-times injury players who's future remains unclear (Wheatley, Crable, McKenzie, Tate)

2 are players who've had NFL careers that place them as better than busts (Maroney, Thomas) although not great players

1 (Mayo) is a DROY who suffered a knee injury as a sophomore

1 (Meriweather) just made the Pro Bowl

4 (Vollmer, Butler, Chung, Brace) would grade out as incomplete, although both Vollmer and Butler would seem likely starters next season, pending offseason moves.


So, that's 2 busts (granting O'Connell), and only 2 busts, to this point, out of 14 picks.


round 4: 5 picks

1 is an All-Pro (Gostkowski)

1 is a starter who should be a nickel/dime corner (Wilhite)

1 is a rookie who was an interior line backup that was basically invisible (Ohrnberger)

1 is out of the league (Brown)

1 is a member of the Vikings organization (Mills)

So, that's 2 playing big roles for the Patriots, 1 that's a developmental rookie for the Patriots, and 2 that are essentially write offs at this point, making this a minimum of 40% success for the 4th round


rounds 5-7: 19 picks

O'Callaghan became a starter for the Chiefs.
Smith is in the defensive line rotation for the Broncos
Andrews was a solid special teams player until he decided he'd rather be a criminal
Rogers and Richardson are backups/STers for the Chiefs
Slater is a ST guy for the Patriots who gets the very rare WR appearance
Ingram is the Patriots long snapper
Edelman was the Patriots #3 WR this season
Pryor was an "on again/off again" part of the Patriots defensive line rotation as a rookie this season

That's 8 players out of 19 taken in the back end of the draft that are still in the NFL and contributing, along with another who would still be in the NFL if he wasn't an idiot.

Nothing wrong with those percentages, and I don't think I'm overstating the team's success at all. Once you take in the pattern of the drafts, you see a more successful history than when you just look at raw numbers. That's just the reality of the situation.

And, then, you top all of that off with Moss/Welker. As I said, the problem isn't a high number of misses, because that's simply not what's happening. The problem is that the hits aren't home runs.

the wrothbroughterer said:

I think you're overstating the Patriots success in recent drafts. Granted the picks in 2007 that netted Moss and Welker have to be lumped in with the value added to the franchise via the draft, but since 2006 the Patriots have not by any means done a good job of selecting talent with their picks.

Between 2006 and 2008(I left out the 2009 draft because 1 year isn't really a fair amount of time to make an accurate judgement on its impact), the Patriots had 23 draft picks. Of these 23 players selected, only 3 have gone on to earn starting roles with the teams (Mayo, Gostkowski, and Meriweather), 5 are playing in supporting/back up roles (Maroney, Wheatley, Wilhite, Slater, and Crable), and 15 are no longer on the team with a large amount being cut before the end of their first training camp. Furthermore, you have consider how much longer the likes of Wheatley, Wilhite, Slater, Crable, and Maroney will be on the team given their individual performances, and in the case of some ability to stay healthy.

Sure, the NFL draft isn't a sure thing and the chances of selecting an impact player in the later rounds is very unlikely, but you can't have 60+% of your picks go on to not make any impact for your organization. The drafts from 2003-2005 netted us a glut of starters (Wilfork, Watson, Warren, Cassel, Samuel, Mankins, Kaczur, among others).

This team needs a few homeruns in the upcoming draft if they hope to turn it around sometime soon.

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i was interested in reading this point till you listed maroney as a back up... even tho he has been our starting running back for years and has had the most carries. Just because there are sparadic games where someone else is used more doesn't make him a backup.

Deus Irae said:

You're doing precisely the sort of non-analysis "analysis" that I was bemoaning:

First, the person had said past 3 years, and you skipped the last year in favor of 2006, thinking it makes your point look stronger.

Second, you give a nod to Moss/Welker, but you minimize their importance as much as possible

Third, you play the numbers game as if all picks are equal, when they aren't. Here, I'll even incorporate 2006 for you:

Rounds 1-3
2006: Maroney, Jackson, Thomas
2007: Meriweather
2008: Mayo, Wheatley, Crable, O'Connell
2009: Chung, Brace, Butler, Vollmer, Tate, McKenzie


Round 4
2006: Mills, Gostkowski
2007: Brown
2008: Wilhite
2009: Ohrnberger

Rounds 5-7
2006: O'Callaghan, Mincey, Stevenson, Smith, Andrews
2007: Oldenburg, Rogers, Richardson, Hairston, Hilliard, Lua, Elgin
2008: Slater, Ruud
2009: Bussey, Ingram, Pryor, Edelman, Richard

So, a 4 year breakdown:
rounds 1-3: 14 picks, with 10 of the 14 coming in just the past 2 years

1 is a clear bust (Jackson), who suffered injury, meaning the degree of "Bust might have been affected

1 is a likely bust (O'Connell) who was given the "Here's your hat, what's your hurry?" treatment

4 are multiple-times injury players who's future remains unclear (Wheatley, Crable, McKenzie, Tate)

2 are players who've had NFL careers that place them as better than busts (Maroney, Thomas) although not great players

1 (Mayo) is a DROY who suffered a knee injury as a sophomore

1 (Meriweather) just made the Pro Bowl

4 (Vollmer, Butler, Chung, Brace) would grade out as incomplete, although both Vollmer and Butler would seem likely starters next season, pending offseason moves.


So, that's 2 busts (granting O'Connell), and only 2 busts, to this point, out of 14 picks.


round 4: 5 picks

1 is an All-Pro (Gostkowski)

1 is a starter who should be a nickel/dime corner (Wilhite)

1 is a rookie who was an interior line backup that was basically invisible (Ohrnberger)

1 is out of the league (Brown)

1 is a member of the Vikings organization (Mills)

So, that's 2 playing big roles for the Patriots, 1 that's a developmental rookie for the Patriots, and 2 that are essentially write offs at this point, making this a minimum of 40% success for the 4th round


rounds 5-7: 19 picks

O'Callaghan became a starter for the Chiefs.
Smith is in the defensive line rotation for the Broncos
Andrews was a solid special teams player until he decided he'd rather be a criminal
Rogers and Richardson are backups/STers for the Chiefs
Slater is a ST guy for the Patriots who gets the very rare WR appearance
Ingram is the Patriots long snapper
Edelman was the Patriots #3 WR this season
Pryor was an "on again/off again" part of the Patriots defensive line rotation as a rookie this season

That's 8 players out of 19 taken in the back end of the draft that are still in the NFL and contributing, along with another who would still be in the NFL if he wasn't an idiot.

Nothing wrong with those percentages, and I don't think I'm overstating the team's success at all. Once you take in the pattern of the drafts, you see a more successful history than when you just look at raw numbers. That's just the reality of the situation.

And, then, you top all of that off with Moss/Welker. As I said, the problem isn't a high number of misses, because that's simply not what's happening. The problem is that the hits aren't home runs.

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Actually I left the most recent draft out because, and I'll just reiterate this in case you missed it, 1 year is not a sufficient time frame to evaluate a draft. For all the promise that Vollmer and Edelman show they could just as easily take a step back and play their way out of the limelight. At the same time Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, and Brandon Tate could emerge as reliable starters. You yourself stated that the jury is out on McKenzie, Tate, Brace, Vollmer, Butler, and Chung. That's 6 players from the draft that you can't grade out so what is the use in trying to determine the quality of the draft when, again going with your logic, half of the players can't be graded? Leaving out the 2009 draft wasn't for my own benefit, I'm more than confident in my point than to have to cherry pick statistics.

It's great that some of those back end draft picks the Patriots had are still kicking around the NFL in different capacities, but the very fact that they aren't playing for the Patriots reinforces the notion that the Patriots haven't done a good job with the draft. The point of the entire process is to select players that you think can add value and improve your franchise. If they can't select players that they can develop in any capacity(be it starter, backup, ST) for their team, it only details their deficiencies further. Drafting a player that you can't use but another team can doesn't help your cause in any capacity.

Now of all the players that were Patriots draft picks but no longer with the team, let's actually evaluate the production that these players have amassed over their careers because you missed a few:

Garrett Mills- Converted TE now with 7 career catches
Ryan O'Callaghan- Played 14 games in 2009
Jeremy Mincey- Recorded 15 career tackles and 2 sacks, with Jacksonville
Dan Stevenson- Hasn't started a game in NFL career
Le Kevin Smith- A 6th round pick traded for a 7th round pick(that's a step backwards for the record). Recorded a whopping 10 tackles for Denver this year
Willie Andrews- Out of football
Kareem Brown- Hasn't recorded any stats as a professional, currently out of football
Clint Oldenburg- 2 career games
Justin Rogers- 35 career tackles, none with Patriots.
Oscar Lua- Out of football
Mike Elgin- Member of the Colts practice squat
Bo Ruud- Waived by Tampa Bay in the 2009 pre season.

That's a real awesome group, bro.

jsull87 said:

i was interested in reading this point till you listed maroney as a back up... even tho he has been our starting running back for years and has had the most carries. Just because there are sparadic games where someone else is used more doesn't make him a backup.

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I don't think he has proven himself as the starter. He has never picked up more than 200 carries in a season nor has he ever gained over 1000 yards and has always been used in a rotation. For his career he averages 12.93 carries a game(13.82 when you add his receptions). If he was a bona fide starter, he would have eclipsed both of those milestones at some point and would at the very least get at least 15 touches a game.

Starting in the 2005 season the the Pats starting to lose key members of the team espicially on defense,Ted Johnson, Law, Samuel, Harrison, Vrabel, Bruschi,Phifer, Mcginest and Seymour were all gone by the start of the 2009 season. The only players drafted between 2006-2008 who appear to be even remotely capable of playing on that level would be Mayo and Meriwether and even those are questionable after this year. So for all the people who keep insisting that they draft well answer this question - Where is the talent ?
and I don't mean a bunch of what ifs. I'm also not talking about the Whilites and the Guytons of the world who may be contributors but are more of a liabilty when they are forced into the starting lineup. The replacements should have already been in place before this year but they weren't largely because of poor drafting.

Armchair Quarterback said:

Starting in the 2005 season the the Pats starting to lose key members of the team espicially on defense,Ted Johnson, Law, Samuel, Harrison, Vrabel, Bruschi,Phifer, Mcginest and Seymour were all gone by the start of the 2009 season. The only players drafted between 2006-2008 who appear to be even remotely capable of playing on that level would be Mayo and Meriwether and even those are questionable after this year. So for all the people who keep insisting that they draft well answer this question - Where is the talent ?
and I don't mean a bunch of what ifs. I'm also not talking about the Whilites and the Guytons of the world who may be contributors but are more of a liabilty when they are forced into the starting lineup. The replacements should have already been in place before this year but they weren't largely because of poor drafting.

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Spot on sir.

the wrothbroughterer said:

Actually I left the most recent draft out because, and I'll just reiterate this in case you missed it, 1 year is not a sufficient time frame to evaluate a draft. For all the promise that Vollmer and Edelman show they could just as easily take a step back and play their way out of the limelight. At the same time Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, and Brandon Tate could emerge as reliable starters. You yourself stated that the jury is out on McKenzie, Tate, Brace, Vollmer, Butler, and Chung. That's 6 players from the draft that you can't grade out so what is the use in trying to determine the quality of the draft when, again going with your logic, half of the players can't be graded? Leaving out the 2009 draft wasn't for my own benefit, I'm more than confident in my point than to have to cherry pick statistics.

It's great that some of those back end draft picks the Patriots had are still kicking around the NFL in different capacities, but the very fact that they aren't playing for the Patriots reinforces the notion that the Patriots haven't done a good job with the draft. The point of the entire process is to select players that you think can add value and improve your franchise. If they can't select players that they can develop in any capacity(be it starter, backup, ST) for their team, it only details their deficiencies further. Drafting a player that you can't use but another team can doesn't help your cause in any capacity.

Now of all the players that were Patriots draft picks but no longer with the team, let's actually evaluate the production that these players have amassed over their careers because you missed a few:

Garrett Mills- Converted TE now with 7 career catches
Ryan O'Callaghan- Played 14 games in 2009
Jeremy Mincey- Recorded 15 career tackles and 2 sacks, with Jacksonville
Dan Stevenson- Hasn't started a game in NFL career
Le Kevin Smith- A 6th round pick traded for a 7th round pick(that's a step backwards for the record). Recorded a whopping 10 tackles for Denver this year
Willie Andrews- Out of football
Kareem Brown- Hasn't recorded any stats as a professional, currently out of football
Clint Oldenburg- 2 career games
Justin Rogers- 35 career tackles, none with Patriots.
Oscar Lua- Out of football
Mike Elgin- Member of the Colts practice squat
Bo Ruud- Waived by Tampa Bay in the 2009 pre season.

That's a real awesome group, bro.

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This is so true. I was saying the exact same thing to my friends the other day while watching the disgrace of a game on sunday. While its true the pats cant draft pro bowlers every year or even starters they should be able to at least draft every year one or two quality players that can fill in from time to time. The pats have no depth and the last three years of drafting are prime examples why.