Suspect drafting past few years

Deus Irae said:

The Patriots were 16-0 2 years ago. Last season, they went 11-5 with a QB that hadn't been a starter since high school. In the past offseason:

Loss of excellent O.C.
Loss of excellent front office partner
Bruschi - retired
Harrison - retired
Vrabel - traded
Seymour - traded
Burgess - terrible trade
AdT - struggling
2 LB draft picks, one from 2008 and 1 from 2009, IR'd
QB returning from serious, season ending injury
WR3 not replaced
O-line struggling with injury and inconsistent play

With all that, even disregarding the so-called 'bad drafts', how the hell would any team be expected to maintain that 'elite' status? I'm not happy with where the team is, but can we not all start looking for tall bridges and buildings to leap off? The Patriots are still the best team in their division, and they've got about a month to improve, make the playoffs, and become a top Super Bowl contender. I don't expect the team to win the Super Bowl playing as they are, but it's been one down year, not a decade of Lions-like play.

I've been talking about this team struggling and pointing out problems all offseason, because I thought Belichick was making a lot of mistakes that would come back to bite the team. However, people who want to start blaming the draft really need to take a look over at Pittsburgh.

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By drafting capable replacements, which they have'nt done. This years class looks promising but the last three drafts should have devolped more contributers than they have.

Fortunately for us, the team's loaded with picks the next 2 years. But if they don't pick up a pass rusher with one of the first picks I think Kraft/BB need to seriously questioned

Armchair Quarterback said:

By drafting capable replacements, which they have'nt done. This years class looks promising but the last three drafts should have devolped more contributers than they have.

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There is no capable replacement for Tom Brady currently serving as a backup on any top team in the league, and you don't 'draft' coordinators or front office men. You can't "draft" replacement linebackers for your drafted replacement linebackers. Your statement ignores reality in order to just keep going down a path (the draft!) which doesn't explain the problems.

Again, take a look at the Steelers. Hell, take a look at the Giants, too, while you're at it.

condon84 said:

It's hard to blame it all on one person, but don't all these issues fall squarely on Bill? (except for Brady's injury).

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A lot of the issues fall ultimately on BB, but you can't blame him for McDaniels, Pioli, Brady's injury, the injuries to the offensive line or the injuries to the two LB prospects. I've been talking about what I felt were Belichick mistakes since the beginning of the offseason, but some things are out of the coach's hands.

Deus Irae said:

There is no capable replacement for Tom Brady currently serving as a backup on any top team in the league, and you don't 'draft' coordinators or front office men. You can't "draft" replacement linebackers for your drafted replacement linebackers. Your statement ignores reality in order to just keep going down a path (the draft!) which doesn't explain the problems.

Again, take a look at the Steelers. Hell, take a look at the Giants, too, while you're at it.

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Yeah, I guess if there's some small comfort, it's that we're not the only "elite" team in the league having major issues this season.

Deus Irae said:

A lot of the issues fall ultimately on BB, but you can't blame him for McDaniels, Pioli, Brady's injury, the injuries to the offensive line or the injuries to the two LB prospects. I've been talking about what I felt were Belichick mistakes since the beginning of the offseason, but some things are out of the coach's hands.

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McDaniels and Pioli's replacements are all on Bill. (Although I think that our draft was good and some of our FA pickups have been good).

The Seymour trade, the confidence that we could land a pass rusher in Taylor, and ultimately the trade for Burgess are all on Bill.

Injuries, of course, are out of his hands.

condon84 said:

McDaniels and Pioli's replacements are all on Bill. (Although I think that our draft was good and some of our FA pickups have been good).

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When you lose the best in the business, replacements are generally going to take time to get up to snuff. McDaniels, for all the grief some people here liked to give him, was at the very top of the O.C. mountain, and Pioli was executive of the decade. You don't just go plug-n-play with people like that. To think otherwise is the fault of the analyst, not the fault of Belichick.

condon84 said:

The Seymour trade, the confidence that we could land a pass rusher in Taylor, and ultimately the trade for Burgess are all on Bill.

Injuries, of course, are out of his hands.

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Please go back and read what I've posted about the Seymour and Burgess trades. I don't think anyone on this board came out more strongly against those moves than I did. I've not absolved BB of responsibility for the team's struggles this season. I have, however, tried to be objective about what's going on with the team. Blaming BB for things beyond his control doesn't explain the problems.

JackBauer said:

Yeah, I guess if there's some small comfort, it's that we're not the only "elite" team in the league having major issues this season.

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Indeed, and Pittsburgh is a great example of how 1 player, even a non-QB, can really impact a team. Without Troy P. that team is decidedly mediocre, because it can't defend the middle.

condon84 said:

It's hard to blame it all on one person, but don't all these issues fall squarely on Bill? (except for Brady's injury).

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As the top of any organization failures are always your fault. However In BBs defense I think the biggest issue is the "brain drain" from the front office and coaching staff. The capabilities of the organization to evaluate both pro and college players has taken a serious hit. In my mind the Pats have struggled more with pro player evaluation more then their with college evaluations. (see Monty Beisel, Duane Starks, and Derrick Burgess as examples), but they have used their draft picks well, overall. Especially early (rounds 1-3) picks, with the exception of a Florida receiver, not to be named.

Getting back to my point about the brain drain. It takes time for people to develop complete competency in new positions. This years disappointments are the cumulative result of 5 years worth of attrition. Starting with the loss of Romeo and Charlie and culminating this year with the loss of Pioli.

Still we Patriots fan have been very spoiled, I still remember the Rod Rust year and **** McPherson. If an 11-5 non-playoff year and a #4 playoff seeding year are our "rebuilding" years, we should consider ourselves very lucky. These past 2 years will result in stronger front office and coaching staff going forward and I will temper any disappointment knowing that the Pats have the opportunity with the most recent draft and the next 2 to reload for another prolonged period of success.

DaBruinz said:

Hobbs vs. Springs? Isn't that a bit of a supposition on your part? Shouldn't it be Hobbs vs. Wilhite since Wilhite has been the player starting in Hobbs spot most of the season?

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Since Springs was signed in free agency, it allowed Ellis Hobbs to be expendable. Meanwhile Springs has been scratched from the lineup the last four games. Ellis Hobbs at least contributed as a kickoff returner.

DaBruinz said:

Also, since when can BB see the future and know when player is going to get injured?

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Who are you referring to?

DaBruinz said:

As for Matthews, that was puzzling. I think the Pats miss his blocking skills.

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So was trading away David Thomas.

DaBruinz said:

Why don't you compare Thomas to Matthews since Matthews replaced Thomas?

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Neither are currently on the roster. That's even more puzzling.

DaBruinz said:

I wouldn't say that BB the GM let down BB the coach. I would say that the Players let down the coach because they didn't step up they way that was expected.

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Trading away Seymour has hurt this team in more ways than one. The New England Patriots practically sleep walked thru the Buffalo Bills game in week one and were out muscled in week two against the New York Jets. The energy and enthusiasm is missing from the 2009 New England Patriots defense. In essence, the Patriots swapped Seymour for Burgess, who has been a major disappointment. I would rather have signed OLB Greg Ellis from the Dallas Cowboys in free agency than acquired Shawn Springs or traded for Derrick Burgess.

DaBruinz said:

I'll be honest. I don't think the Pats miss Gaffney as much as people think.

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Two words: Isaiah Stanback

FredFromDartmouth said:

There is a new sheriff in town and Pioli is off to KC. This is a rebuilding year...

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I think Pioli realized these problems were comimg and left

in the nick of time.

pats1 said:

We're talking about actual draft pick selections here. I wouldn't count Moss, Welker, and Guyton. We're talking about the guys that the Pats decided to pick when they were on the clock.

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I find it amazing that outside of Tully Banta-Cain, Belichick has not

developed one starting DE/OLB. Parcells assembled most of the Patriot's

linebacking corps.

Jimke said:

I find it amazing that outside of Tully Banta-Cain, Belichick has not

developed one starting DE/OLB. Parcells assembled most of the Patriot's

linebacking corps.

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Why is that amazing, though? Parcells has always built around his linebackers, while BB builds around his d-line. Belichick brought in veteran LB talent instead of going through the draft, it just got injured/hurt. It's tough to maintain the LB corps in the face of Colvin's freak injury, Bruschi's stroke, etc...

Certainly there are other factors (HOF/Franchise QB), but draft success and player/personell decisions is what turns teams into contenders or turns contenders into average or worst teams. I mean look at Detroit or Oakland to see what poor drafting and player/personell decisions have done to those franchises. It only takes a couple of years of bad decisions to put the organization at a disadvantage. I think we did a good job the first half of this decade getting the right balance in those decisions, but the past 2-3 years including the current season haven't been good and in my opinion have been bad, to the point we are seeing the downward decline of the franchise. When you factor the Free Agent moves we have made, it makes it look worse. There hasn't been a good move in FA since Moss and Welker. In the draft department, I don't see how you can be happy with our performance. Mayo and Merriweather are starters, but I don't see them as impact players in there position. #31 misses alot of tackles, bad angles etc. Mayo, I will give him more time, but I don't see him at that level right now. We have gotten into this, let's trade our picks for future picks and in the process have passed on some impact starters for other teams, meanwhile our defense and offensive line are pretty bad. We are struggling with a HOF QB and WR on this team. Nevermind Pro Bowl talent like Wes Welker. If we didn't have them our team would look like Oakland right now. That to me makes it that much worse, having the best QB, 1WR, 2WR combo in the league, and yet the decline is still there. This team has alot of holes and I think we could have done a better job in drafting/FA to fill those holes, and we haven't done it.


And DBruinz why do you feel the need to call everyone an idiot who posts something you don't agree with and to repeat how knowledgable you are. It comes off really desperate. I will make it easy for you, you are smarter and way more knowledgable then me when it comes to football, and probably everyone on this site for that matter.

Deus Irae said:

When you lose the best in the business, replacements are generally going to take time to get up to snuff. McDaniels, for all the grief some people here liked to give him, was at the very top of the O.C. mountain, and Pioli was executive of the decade. You don't just go plug-n-play with people like that. To think otherwise is the fault of the analyst, not the fault of Belichick.



Please go back and read what I've posted about the Seymour and Burgess trades. I don't think anyone on this board came out more strongly against those moves than I did. I've not absolved BB of responsibility for the team's struggles this season. I have, however, tried to be objective about what's going on with the team. Blaming BB for things beyond his control doesn't explain the problems.

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I remember what you posted about the Seymour trade. Personally, I trusted Bill had an adequate replacement, but that hasn't materialized. I also trusted Bill had an adequate replacement for McD, just like Bill had a replacement for Weiss, but O'Brien has not shown much this year either.

The problem is two-fold, the brain-drain, and the talent-drain. Ultimately, Bill being the final decision-maker of all football related Patriot decisions, has to share the bulk of the blame.

His decisions led to us to where we are right now, but it also led us to 3 SBs. So this is a tricky situation for us fans. There is a line where if it is crossed, fans can legitimately call for their their HC jobs'. I would not go so far as to say Bill is anywhere near that line, but he definitely has been using a lot of his "we'll let it pass because it's Bill" cards this year.

SCPatBoy said:

There hasn't been a good move in FA since Moss and Welker.

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McGowan says "hello", along with TBC, Fred Taylor and, arguably, Leigh Bodden, and Moss and Welker were both trades, although Welker's trade was a result of his RFA status.

SCPatBoy said:

In the draft department, I don't see how you can be happy with our performance.

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There's a difference between loving the drafts and acting as if they've been terrible. There's a middle ground that people seem to be avoiding for no good reason.

SCPatBoy said:

This team has alot of holes and I think we could have done a better job in drafting/FA to fill those holes, and we haven't done it.

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Name me the team that does this perfectly, and you'll be naming a team that's never existed.

DaBruinz said:

Sorry, but you listing the picks for the entirety of BB's career as a Patriots coach and providing no comparison to what the other teams in the league have done drafting wise does not support your argument.

Sorry, but your assessment isn't correct. How can you say that "too many of the picks haven't panned out at all" when you couldn't even be bothered to list out how long each was in the league? And how can you say that your assessment has any validity when you don't bother to make the comparison to the rest of the league. How can your assessment be even partially correct when you've failed to take into consideration that 28 of the 77 picks you listed were in the 6th and 7th round. Rounds that have less than 10% chance of producing a successful pick?

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Oh no. Those have to be included. Did you look at the same thing I was looking at? Did you see how many 2nd 3rd round picks were either out of the league or on someone's practice squad. Let's compare this with our top competitor in the AFc the Colts for example.

We will do the first 4 picks of each round from 2000 on sicne you dont want to seem to listen to reason:

2000:

Rob Morris: Had some very productive season for them. Currently out of Football.

Marcus Washington: Highly productive player and now playing for the Redskins.

David Macklin: Was a 4 year starter for the Colts. Out of the league right now.

Josh Williams: Out of the league.

Patriots:

2 - OL Adrian Klemm - Out of NFL
3 - RB J.R. Redmond - Out of NFL
4 - OL Greg Robinson-Randall - Out of NFL
5 - TE Dave Stachelski - Out of NFL

Of course we had a jewel in the 6th round in the draft. Tom Brady for that draft is the only player actively in the NFL.

2001:

Reggie Wayne: One of the best receivers currently in the league and is an all pro almost every year.

Idrees Bashir: Not great, but was a good backup for 3 seasons. Currently injured for the Lions.

Corey Bird: Blown pick

Ryan Deim: Been a 8 year veteran, and has been avery good tackle throughout his time with the Colts.

1 - DL Richard Seymour - Active, Oakland Raiders: Was a one of the best defensive players this franchise has ever had.
2 - OL Matt Light - Active, New England Patriots: Was a great LT for us for years and years.
3 - DB Brock Williams - Out of NFL
4 - OL Kenyatta Jones - Out of NFL

I will give the Patriots this draft.

2002:

Dwight Freeney: An elite pass rusher and one of the best defensive players of this decade. Was one of the best pcisk of the draft.

Larry Tripplet: Good DT for a few years for the Colts and was productive with his time there.

Joesph Jefferson: Blown Pick

David Thronton: A starting LB for the Titans currently, who had some very affective seasons with the Colts.

Patriots:

1 - TE Daniel Graham - Active, Denver Broncos: Good blocking TE for us.
2 - WR Deion Branch - Active, Seattle Seahawks: One of the more clutch players in big games in the history of the league. Superbowl MVP. What a find here!!
4 - QB Rohan Davey - Out of NFL: Makes me wanted to puke.
4 - DL Jarvis Green - Active, New England Patriots: Was very affective for us throughout his career here.

I would call this draft a tie. Freeney, Triplpett and Thronton were productive, but so were Graham, Branch and Green.

2003:

Dallas Clark: One of the most productive Tight Ends in the league right now, and is Peyton Manning's top weapon.

Mike Doss: A one hit wonder. Bust

Donald Strickland: Currently a DB for the Jets. A good, solid backup. Wasn't a bad 3rd round pick.

Steve Sciullo: practice squad for the Eagles and never produced anything. Blown pick.


Robert Mathis: Great pass rusher and most underrated players in the league right now. Steal here.

Patriots:

1 - DL Ty Warren - Active, New England Patriots: Been a all pro cailber player. Was a great pick
2 - DB Eugene Wilson - Active, Houston Texans: Good, not great. However he contributed. I would call him a bust from where he was picked.
2 - WR Bethel Johnson - Out of NFL- Blown 2nd rounder.
4 - DL Dan Klecko - Out of NFL: Sucked.
4 - DB Asante Samuel - Active, Philadelphia Eagles: Great Corner and what a find in the 4th round. Great pcik.
5 - OL Dan Koppen - Active, New England Patriots. One of the best centers in the league right now. Hit

I'm going to include Cato June because he was picked in the 6th round, but he was a diamond in the rough for them. One of you're less then 10%.

I would give this draft to the Patriots slightly, but were both great.


2004:

Bob Sanders: One of the best safeties right now in the league. On IR currently.

Ben Hartstock: Done nothing

Gilbert Gardiner: Bust

Kendryll Pope: Did nothing at all.

The beauty in this draft was the Colts drafted Jake Scott and Jason David. Two players that played key roles on there superbowl team.

Patriots:

1 - DL Vince Wilfork - Active, New England Patriots: One of the best NT in the league. He as a steal here.
1 - TE Benjamin Watson - Active, New England Patriots: A bust from where he has been picked and what was expected of him when drafted.
2 - DL Marquise Hill - Deceased: He was a bust with a capital B. Never made a contribution to this team.
3 - DB Guss Scott - Out of NFL



2005:

Marlin Jackson: Very good DB for the Colts. Hard hitter and comes up with the big play. Was a good pick here for them.

Kelvin Hayden: A kid who I like a lot, who makes big plays and is a good solid NFL safety.

Vincent Burns: Did nothing

Dylan Gandy: Currently a starter for the lions.

Average at best for the Colts.

1 - OL Logan Mankins - Active, New England Patriots: One of the best O-lineman in the game. Great pick here.
3 - DB Ellis Hobbs - Active, Philadelphia Eagles: Very good #2 corner and punt/kick returner for us. Good value in the 3rd round.
3 - OL Nick Kaczur - Active, New England Patriots. Played at a pro bowl level in 06 and 07. Been awful since.
4 - DB James Sanders - Active, New England Patriots: Average, but a good 4th round selection for what he has given us.

I gotta give this to the Pts. Had some very productive picks.

This is where my point really sinks in:

2006:

Joesph Addai: Highly productive runner who has done a lot in the running and the passing game.

Tim Jennings: Starting corner

Freddie Keiahio: Starting LB

Charlie Johnson: Start RT

Antoine Bethea: Starting SS

Tim Jennings: Backup Safety

Patriots:

Laurence Maroney: Been solid this season, not really anything out of other seasons. Jury is still out.

Chad Jackson: Out of the league.

David Thomas: Been a realible TE for the Saints. Was let go after 2 full seasons.

- TE Garrett Mills - Practice Squad, Minnesota Vikings

4 - K Stephen Gostkowski - Active, New England Patriots

Colts all the way in this draft. They have 4 starters come out of this draft, 2 for us and one is a kicker.

2007:

Patriots

1 - DB Brandon Meriweather - Active, New England Patriots: Been very good this season. Was good value here.
4 - DL Kareem Brown - Out of NFL
5 - OL Clint Oldenburg - Out of NFL
6 - LB Justin Rogers - Out of NFL
6 - DB Mike Richardson - Out of NFL

Colts:

Anthony Gonzalez: Jury is still out on him. However, he looks like a good #2 option for Peyton Manning and company for years to come.

Tony Ugoh: Been -solid for them and has helped in the replacement of Terik Glenn. They have a little addition in sacks, but he has been solid for them.

Clint Session: Starting LB for them.

This was dominated by the Colts. This wasn't even close.

2008:

Colts:

Mike Pollack: Starting guard.

Phillip Wheeler: backup OLB.

Marcus Howard: Reserve OLB. Didn't contribute much his rookie year. Jury is out on him.

Pierre Garcon: Another diamond in the rough. He has been one of the best #2 WR'S in the game right now. He has been productive for that team. GREAT PICK

Tom Sante: Good guy on special teams. Has been able to full in for Dallas Clark when needed.

Patriots:

Jerod Mayo: All Pro last season and rookie of the year. A flat out stud.

Terrance Wealthy: Horrendous

Shawn Crable: Hasn't been able to get on the field and has been not productive... Bust

Kevin O'Connel: Why the hell did we take him here? Cut within the first year of being drafted.

With Mayo, I will have to give this to the Pats but the Colts got more out of this draft.

2009:

We can't make accurate labels on these guys as of yet. Pat Chung and Seabass look like studs for the Patriots. Donald Brown and Joshua Powers look very good for the Colts. A wash right now.


You see through 2006-2009, the Colts have draft better and most of the Patriots have been cut or are on other teams.

This is just one team right here that I broke down. Looking at this, and looking at the free agency period, this is why we are in the situation we are right now.

pats1 said:

We're talking about actual draft pick selections here. I wouldn't count Moss, Welker, and Guyton. We're talking about the guys that the Pats decided to pick when they were on the clock.

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Ignoring Guyton is ******* ridiculous.

Deus Irae said:

how the hell would any team be expected to maintain that 'elite' status? I'm not happy with where the team is, but can we not all start looking for tall bridges and buildings to leap off? The Patriots are still the best team in their division, and they've got about a month to improve, make the playoffs, and become a top Super Bowl contender. I don't expect the team to win the Super Bowl playing as they are, but it's been one down year, not a decade of Lions-like play.

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This right here.

The unwillingness (inability?) of some of the posters on this board to acknowledge the reality of cyclical attrition in today's NFL is dismaying. No team - NONE - understands those realities, and has prepared for them, as well as New England.

Please, folks...perspective.

The Intimidator said:

Tony Ugoh: Been a very good tackle for them and has replaced Terik Glenn. They haven't missed a beat.

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You cannot be serious.