Reiss: Patriots most shotgun-heavy team in league

ausbacker said:

Sorry mate, I've found it really difficult to follow your posts. Roethlisberger is considerably more mobile than Brady, so throwing on the run would be a great strength of his. I'm not sure how well Brady stacks up in this category, but I wouldn't think it would be fantastic.

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Roethlisberger is a 6'5" 241 pound tank with zero mobility. He believes in the art of bumbling around and pump-faking the defense to death.

HarkDawg said:

But he is not FANTASTIC at it...... it was one of his weakest elements as a QB.... Granted he is Improving at it...... he is surely no Big Ben on the run and throwing the ball as he is running.

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So what's your point about Big Ben running out of the shotgun and throwing lasers being a strength of his have to do with Brady not running out of the shotgun and not throwing being a weakness of Brady's? It doesn't make sense.

MassPats38 said:

I am still unclear why the use of the shotgun formation is a bad thing.

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It is by no means a BAD THING...... we just need to do it less than 60-85% of the time....... (like we do) and give a different look.


************ my PATS..... go back through this thread during its early development.... I should be writting PAPERS w/ this current analytical mindset I currently posses. Just give my posts in this thread a look...... You will not be disappointed.

MassPats38 said:

I am still unclear why the use of the shotgun formation is a bad thing. Maybe you can dismiss the opinion of Brian Billick, the offensive coordinator for the Vikings when it broke all offensive records, or of other teams showing success running the shotgun and I-formations, but dismissing the formation out of hand does not support your theory. .

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I don't dismiss shotgun as a formation itself. I absolutely loathe the gross over-use of it. There is no justification for it besides stubborn, lazy, or rookie play calling.

This offense would still roll if we kept Brady under center. The over-use of shotgun isn't some major long-term transformation of the game that is the crucial key to our wins.... as people here seem to think.

The over-use of shotgun right now is a fad, a stoppable offense, that won't win any rings like the Oilers run-n-shoot, or Bills K-gun no-huddle.

looks like i'll be pulling an all nighter again...... F-ME

maverick4 said:

I don't dismiss shotgun as a formation itself. I absolutely loathe the gross over-use of it. There is no justification for it besides stubborn, lazy, or rookie play calling.

This offense would still roll if we kept Brady under center. The over-use of shotgun isn't some major long-term transformation of the game that is the crucial key to our wins.... as people here seem to think.

The over-use of shotgun right now is a fad, a stoppable offense, that won't win any rings like the Oilers run-n-shoot, or Bills K-gun no-huddle.

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What are you offering to suggest the offense would roll mav? This is the whole point. You simply do not know other than your own personal opinion.

Rob0729 said:

Funny, name the last championship team that had a dynamic offense that is flexible enough to change their schemes. The Steelers? Nope. Colts? No. Giants? No. The Pats? Yes. The Bucs? No. The Ravens? Definitely not. The Broncos? No. The Packers? No. The Rams?

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Wow, you really just mixed up 'dynastic' with 'dynamic', and also confused flexible methods of winning, with meaning changing scheme. This really explains a lot.



The one-trick passing ponies can only aspire to become like the 90's Bills, or get lucky like the 00 Rams and barely win. This current offense can't even manufacture a win if Welker is stopped.

ausbacker said:

What are you offering to suggest the offense would roll mav? This is the whole point.

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I have already written about this in other threads.


Reduce the use of shotgun. Keep Brady under center unless it is 3rd and 3+, or only occasionally on other downs. When shotgun is used, use more 2RB shotgun sets.

Use a lot more 2-TE, 2WR formations on 1st and 2nd down, and especially in the red zone.

Throw more to tight ends, especially in play action.

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I highly doubt the over-use of shotgun is the crucial reason for our wins or offensive points avg. With Brady mostly under center the offensive stats would be just as good, and we would have as many if not more wins. The less predictability would also improve the red zone, 2nd half, and road game issues.

maverick4 said:

Wow, you really just mixed up 'dynastic' with 'dynamic', and also confused flexible methods of winning, with meaning changing scheme. This really explains a lot, I've been speaking with someone who reads like a 5 year old. I'm imagining you probably also have that silly George Bush smug smile too, thinking you just said something intelligent. The list of Superbowl winners is full of mostly offenses have potent attacks not completely dependent on either the run or the pass.

The one-trick passing ponies can only aspire to become like the 90's Bills, or get lucky like the 00 Rams and barely win. This current offense can't even manufacture a win if Welker is stopped.

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Yes, if Welker is stopped it causes the defense to give up 20 yards per attempt and a TD every 4.5 passes. That is how bad the offense is that it caused the defense to give up 35 points to the the Saints. Again, the Pats lost Monday night because of a total team failure, not just the offense. Brees had one of the best QB performances of all time on Monday night and that isn't the offense's fault.

As for the dynasties, neither the Cowboys nor the Steelers were very flexible in their methods of winning. In fact, neither were the 49ers.

Rob0729 said:

Yes, if Welker is stopped it causes the defense to give up 20 yards per attempt and a TD every 4.5 passes. That is how bad the offense is that it caused the defense to give up 35 points to the the Saints. Again, the Pats lost Monday night because of a total team failure, not just the offense. Brees had one of the best QB performances of all time on Monday night and that isn't the offense's fault.

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For years the same shtick. It's always excuse making, never the offense for ANY loss, never the common denominator like the predictable shotgun fad.

Rob0709 said:

As for the dynasties, neither the Cowboys nor the Steelers were very flexible in their methods of winning. In fact, neither were the 49ers.

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Nope. The Cowboys were multi-dimensional with Emmitt Smith as the main guy, Aikman could pass it to Irvin. Big Ben was not the featured star on those championship teams, he could beat teams in the air but they were balanced with a potent running focus. The 49ers with Montana won a few rings before Rice was ever drafted. After Rice, they were still very balanced with focus on getting Roger Craig the ball. Bradshaw wasn't even one of the top 3 players on that offense, he could pass it, but they had a running attack/focus.

The Steve Young 49ers are an example of a team that wasn't balanced, and they couldn't beat the Cowboys for years. Steve Young was too locked into Jerry Rice. They had to sign Deion Sanders, get Ricky Watters, and they still only barely beat the Cowboys to reach the bowl.

ausbacker said:

So what's your point about Big Ben running out of the shotgun and throwing lasers being a strength of his have to do with Brady not running out of the shotgun and not throwing being a weakness of Brady's? It doesn't make sense.

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He is good at it...... just like Brady (but Brady does it) in the pocket....... and isnormally not on the run and when he does throw on the run..... it is no where as great a Big Ben would achieve doing the same thing.

maverick4 said:

I don't dismiss shotgun as a formation itself. I absolutely loathe the gross over-use of it. There is no justification for it besides stubborn, lazy, or rookie play calling.

This offense would still roll if we kept Brady under center. The over-use of shotgun isn't some major long-term transformation of the game that is the crucial key to our wins.... as people here seem to think.

The over-use of shotgun right now is a fad, a stoppable offense, that won't win any rings like the Oilers run-n-shoot, or Bills K-gun no-huddle.

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I assume you say the Pats "overuse" it because the Pats statistically use it more than other teams because I do not know of a rule of thumb suggesting an upper bound on the frequency of use of a particular formation in a game. As far as the prevalence of the formation representing a fad, Billick thinks otherwise as the article provided indicates. You can disagree with him, but frankly the opinion of a coach with a ring and student of the greatest offensive mind in the NFL, Bill Walsh, carries more weight than your opinion on the NFL.

I am not going down the road of an argument on the point as you offer the alternative equivalent of "run a greater variety of offensive formations and the offense will be more successful," which is no more than your opinion. I have no doubt you believe in your opinion.

The shotgun formation offers draws, screens and spread, which has tended to be the strength of this offense. It also gives the QB more time to react to defenses. I am not sure why you are so certain reducing response time for Brady provides the key to the kingdom. I have read your posts on the subject throughought the board, and I still am unsure as to how you conclude the inferior results are definitively the result of formations or play calling and may not otherwise be chalked up to a lack of execution by the players, a problem not negated by a different formation. I have seen plenty of dropped passes, missed throws and missed blocks in losses this year to support that explanation. I am not sure running the same plays out of a variety of formations would enhance the precision/efficiency with which the offense operates.

MassPats38 said:

The shotgun formation offers draws, screens and spread, which has tended to be the strength of this offense. .

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How can it be the strength when so many complain that we don't have a 3rd or 4th receiver. Meanwhile we have 2 TE's who are underutilized.

We also don't use draws or screens in any degree that makes the D respect it, they are playing pass rush all the way.

If we reduced the use of shotgun, we would still score a ton of points and still have as many if not more wins.

maverick4 said:

I don't dismiss shotgun as a formation itself. I absolutely loathe the gross over-use of it. There is no justification for it besides stubborn, lazy, or rookie play calling.

This offense would still roll if we kept Brady under center. The over-use of shotgun isn't some major long-term transformation of the game that is the crucial key to our wins.... as people here seem to think.

The over-use of shotgun right now is a fad, a stoppable offense, that won't win any rings like the Oilers run-n-shoot, or Bills K-gun no-huddle.

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Perhaps NEM has returned ... we just did not realize it.

MassPats38 said:

As far as the prevalence of the formation representing a fad, Billick thinks otherwise as the article provided indicates. You can disagree with him, but frankly the opinion of a coach with a ring and student of the greatest offensive mind in the NFL, Bill Walsh, carries more weight than your opinion on the NFL.

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I read that article, it's a great read thanks. However, it doesn't support the use of any fad offensive, especially the gross over-use of a shotgun spread offense.

That Brian Billick article actually proves my points even more. Billick won a ring because he wasn't stubbornly fixated on any one thing, he adapts, he is flexible. He didn't force the 98 Vikings offense upon the Ravens, like McDaniels is doing now over in Denver with the shotgun-happy offense. Billick learned how his explosive Vikings offense choked in the playoffs. Offensive explosive coordinator Billick established a Ravens offense that didn't make mistakes, passed to Shannon Sharpe and ran the ball.


Brian Billick isn't exactly a great example for you. Now, if Mike Martz had left the Rams and won a ring that would have been something, but Martz suffers from the same problem of insisting on winning only a certain way.

maverick4 said:

How can it be the strength when so many complain that we don't have a 3rd or 4th receiver. Meanwhile we have 2 TE's who are underutilized.

We also don't use draws or screens in any degree that makes the D respect it, they are playing pass rush all the way.

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That's a play selection issue, not a formation problem. If the Saints or any other team can get pressure bringing only four defenders, that's a blocking problem. If you can get pressure with fewer defenders you can keep the rest of the team in the secondary. The Pats have 1260 yards and a 4.0 YPC average, the accepted norm for an average rushing team, so if the rushing attack is going gangbusters and should be turned loose, the results don't support that approach.

I would differ with anyone saying the team lacks a 3rd or 4th receiver. Edelman was hurt, and Aiken has showed promise. Gruden pointed out the lack of continuity in the 3rd and 4th receivers has made performances less effective than they might otherwise be, and I don't disagree with him on that point.

As for underutilized TEs, what percentage do you throw to them as an adequate number? Watson is on track for his most productive year. Baker, not as much. Maroney and Faulk are also on track for one of their most productive years receiving. If you don't like the percentages, I would ask (1) are they open and (2) is Brady hitting them with the pass when open. If (1),you cannot utilize a covered receiver and if (2), unless there is another open receiver, that is on Brady and is also not a formation problem.

MassPats38 said:

That's a play selection issue, not a formation problem. If the Saints or any other team can get pressure bringing only four defenders, that's a blocking problem.

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Blocking is related to play calling though. Think about the posters here claiming that Maroney was getting poor run blocking because defense's figured out early this season that when Maroney is in the game, he is running.

Play calling and blocking are related if you are predictable.

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Also, about that fad article not the Walsh article: Wildcat is also increasing in usage around the league too, and just as with the shotgun spread, it doesn't mean anything about what it means for championship-style offensive football.

maverick4 said:

Here you go again with more ridiculous claims. I have always maintained the over-use of shotgun is on O'Brien and McKid, not Belichick. You can see that after he left McKid still uses shotgun way too much, even with Kyle Orton as his QB.

Trying to say I'm attacking Belichick is like saying the non-existent use of the tight ends this year is Belichick's fault, when it's clearly O'Briens's.


The funniest part about Rob0709 is that he tries to give ALL credit/blame to Belichick, saying he makes all the play calls and all the decisions, and in the next breadth thinks that McKid was a good coordinator. Either McKid was a mindless robot following specific, comprehensive orders from Belichick for ALL situations, or the credit/blame goes to the coordinator too, not Belichick.

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how is that the same shotgun hs been effective for the colts to be 11-0 ? just because they have used it 15 times less than us ?

maverick4 said:

Blocking is related to play calling though. Think about the posters here claiming that Maroney was getting poor run blocking because defense's figured out early this season that when Maroney is in the game, he is running.

Play calling and blocking are related if you are predictable.

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Also, about that fad article not the Walsh article: Wildcat is also increasing in usage around the league too, and just as with the shotgun spread, it doesn't mean anything about what it means for championship-style offensive football.

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Seeing as though you apparently know more about play calling, scheming and execution than the professionals paid to do the job for a living, when will we be seeing you as head coach of an NFL franchise maverick? If the things are as easy as you appear to make them, I want you coaching the Patriots.

SVN said:

how is that the same shotgun hs been effective for the colts to be 11-0 ?

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Because Peyton Manning is possibly the greatest QB of all time, and even with that they still have won several games by less than 3 points in miraculous comebacks?