Breaking down run game short comings/it's not "his" fault

In Maroney's TD run, it was similar to your 1st diagram except Vollmer pulled and preceded Maroney - Vollmer completely took out the Mike which was the key to letting Maroney get through. I'm not home where I can run the slo-mo, so I can't comment on what Neal and Kaczur did.

I'm not sure if I have ever seen Maroney run without at least one dance step. Is that a misperception ? Has anybody done a detailed observation of that ?

I have also wondered a lot if the best use of Maroney isn't in a scheme that gets him more into the open where his talent to take advantage of getting a little open space could be effective. It would seem to me, also, as has been commented, that he is much more suited to a Kevin Faulk type role which would give him running plays that give the RB a slight delay to see how the play initially develops and the outlet passes that would take advantage of his ability with a less cluttered set of defenders.

Assuming you're basically correct:

With careful deliberation, we choose not to carry a FB (and to use an OLman as a short yardage FB). Implicit in your scenario is the need to change our system away from zone blocking and/or to at least add a FB - if we're to be more effective - with Maroney. What I don't understand is: How come Fred Taylor doesn't need a FB? Why is he effective within the existing system and Maroney is not. I know that sounds like old argument but I still don't get it?

How would such a fundamental change in blocking effect our schemes and signal calling (especially with rookie WRs, Aiken and Baker)? Could it even be done at this point of the season. I don't think we can change something as fundamental as the blocking scheme this late in the year. We've had signals trouble on both sides of the ball all season .

I think Maroney needs to be the one who adjusts? How could he adjust (rather than the team adjust). Rather than add a FB. What plays are better suited for him within the existing framework. E.G., why not pitch him the ball, he has good hands?

Fred Taylor doesnt need a fullback (as much) because he breaks tackles on more than a few occasions and gets to the second level. Maroney goes down on first contact every time. Unless he can just push the pile. Thats it.

Patspsycho said:

Yes.

The Will, DE, and SS.

The zone blocking in this particular scheme creates the two hole, but without the Fullback, we have no backside (as opposed to playside) protection. So, on the D, whoever can get around the edge, pretty much has a free path to pursue, because there is no FB to block him.

So in this scenario, LoMo just has no time to react, and pretty much does not have the luxury of having another option, because the Will is unchecked and has a free path to sealing the two hole, and should he fail, the SS is sitting in basically 9 tech (outside shade of TE).

In the Bucs game, we saw this because they overpursued in the run plays (what we are talking about above). You saw them stack the box more often than not with the SS.

Again I do not have DVR so I will defer to anyone who does, and saw otherwise.

Click to expand...

That's great. Thanks.

So, here's a question for a guy who clearly knows a lot more about this than do I. Take the exact same situation (same play, same blocking, same attacking D in the same positions) and put any of the greatest runners in NFL history into it (Juice, Sanders, Brown, anyone you care to name). What, if anything, would/could they do to turn lead into gold?

Deus Irae said:

Another site has a poster who breaks down the plays by posting gifs of them and analyzing them from there. I don't have the equipment to do that at the moment, however. If someone here wanted to, they could rip gifs of every run.

Click to expand...

First I'd like to thank Jay for taking the time to do this post. While I don't agree with everything he's said, he's allowed for FINALLY a real discussion on the ISSUES of the running game, and not the personalities.

Second. DI, where is this OTHER site. I'd love to see someone who breaks down gifs and analyzes them. I'm sure so who many others. It wouldn't be disloyal to this site to let other know. Maybe we could get the guy to post his analysis here.

Now as to the blocking schemes. In you diagrams, Jay, I see one thing I can't get passed before you get into the backside protection.. I don't think that ANY coach worth his salt would ask a C to block a DT/N who is in the PLAY side gap. In that situation you'd most likely have the G block down (he has the angle) and have the C "fold" around. (btw this is a difficult block for the C given he has to snap the ball, but the good ones can do it.)

You can still run a "zone" scheme, without giving up obvious bad angles to your blockers. You just have to have the calls to execute things like the fold block I described above, when the defense alignment makes it a requirement.

As to your assessment of the back side problems, I couldn't agree more, though I agree with those who noted that it would require a completely new look to the offense. Abby makes one good point in noting that the Pats have clearly made the decision NOT to have a true FB, but I disagree on his Fred Taylor comment. Taylor's ypc is only slightly better than Maroney's and he had more carries prior to his injury.

To the guy who complained that Maroney "hesitates" on every run should know that EVERY RB "hesitates". They are waiting for the hole to open. You often hear RBs say that part of their success is "being patient" and waiting for the hole to open. The key here is the decision making process and acceleration INTO that hole. It can be said that Moroney doesn't always make the correct decision, but, at least THIS year, only the haters still claim he isn't hitting that hole hard.

Again, thanks for the thread. I wish we had more of them.

jays52 said:

With all of the bye week talk about Maroney and the 20 page circle jerks popping up everywhere, I thought it would be better to spin out a thread dedicated to actual analysis. I welcome thoughts and evaluation of the run game, but please bring evidence or detailed explaination. to the table As a general notice, if you have qualms, by all means speak your mind. If you are going to say a player sucks or call someone a doody head, this ain't your spot. If you have a case that needs to be made, then make it objectively and come correct.

...

Click to expand...

First of all, great post jays. It was a very interesting and informative read, and I wish we had more intelligent posts like it in this forum. I do have a question, though. I seem to remember people commenting last year that the Patriots had started switching to an inline blocking scheme. If that's true, how is it different from zone blocking? Is it a better fit for our talent?

Also, do you think Brady's handoff technique needs work? It seems like he telegraphs the run to the defense by taking so long. I thought that our running backs appeared to play better last year with Cassel under center.

patfanken said:

Second. DI, where is this OTHER site. I'd love to see someone who breaks down gifs and analyzes them. I'm sure so who many others. It wouldn't be disloyal to this site to let other know. Maybe we could get the guy to post his analysis here.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, it's not a Patriots site, and he's not breaking down Patriots games.

Great stuff, guys. I'd love to know if they call the same plays for different backs and what the results are (alluded to PFS74's post for HOF backs). Also, doesn't Maroney typically come in at points when the Pats are looking to establish the run and Ds can stack accordingly?

PatsFanSince74 said:

That's great. Thanks.

So, here's a question for a guy who clearly knows a lot more about this than do I. Take the exact same situation (same play, same blocking, same attacking D in the same positions) and put any of the greatest runners in NFL history into it (Juice, Sanders, Brown, anyone you care to name). What, if anything, would/could they do to turn lead into gold?

Click to expand...

I think if we do this, we are getting into personal tendencies of the RB, which is where the discussion disintegrates and turns personal.

Like Patfanken says, we're just discussing how the run game is run out of zone blocking, and how it hurts when we don't have a FB in the scheme.

It looks like a lot of posters in this thread have expressed their desires to have more threads like this one, so how about we try to have that every gameweek?