Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maroney

Ring 6 · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:
I don't aim to impress people on the internet,especially strangers,so kudos for proving your point and give yourself a pat on the back - HOWEVER Maroney started against Atlanta and was so good that BB decided to go with Taylor who comes in shortly and carries 21 times to Maroney's 4 against a very suspect Falcons run defense - What does that tell you?,Belichick will go with the HOT player and until week 5 that HOT RB was Taylor,When Maroney DID start it was not for long..Taylor's dominant carries over the other 4 RBs tell you who BB thought was best for his team behind Brady throughout the game.

It tells me you forgot that Maroney was injured in that game.

unoriginal · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

nashvillepatsfan said:
Thank you for this post. Anyone else wanna chime in on this zone blocking stuff. I personally don't know anything about it. Ive asked in several threads about it, but no one wants to address it. All anyone wants to say is "Maroney sucks", or "Maroney is good"........

'Unoriginal' has done some o-line breakdowns. How about some input from him.

Not this year though, so I have nothing specific to add.

My primary and general concern is that zone blocking works much, much better with a real fullback to erase penetration or blow out the hole to give the running back a clear and fast read. Zone blocking is supposed to eliminate negative plays and be a "one-cut-and-go" system, and all our backs get hit far too much in the backfield or else have to make their initial cut to avoid a defender there.

jays52's post obviously is a plausible and concise explanation of why we see so much penetration, especially from backside. I think another dovetailing problem is all our receivers apart from Sam Aiken aren't great blockers and all our runners apart from Maroney don't have breakaway speed, so we don't often cut behind the overpursuit and put the ball in the end zone.

Synovia · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

unoriginal said:
I think another dovetailing problem is all our receivers apart from Sam Aiken aren't great blockers

Welker is a fantastic blocker, Moss isn't great, but hes atleast average, and Aiken is great. Thats part of the reason they're such a great screen team.

unoriginal · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Synovia said:
Welker is a fantastic blocker, Moss isn't great, but hes atleast average, and Aiken is great. Thats part of the reason they're such a great screen team.

Welker usually runs those screens and while he is a tenacious blocker, his small size means he can't effectively block many players beyond a corner. He gets no movement and — while I am no expert and these are just general impressions — I don't think he gives clear reads either.

For talking about wide receivers blocking from a zone perspective, compare our receivers to Ed McCaffrey and Rod Smith of the Denver Broncos. Great blockers. Smith was effectively a tight end with the stalk block technique of a wide receiver. Once Terrell Davis made one guy miss on a backdoor cut, pursuit would have to come from frontside players because the other backside defender would have been ridden out of the play by the receiver.

jays52 · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Here is a sketchy sketch I made in paint on my lunch break to illustrate the concept of zone. This is an example of inside zone at TE out of the I vs the 43.

As you can see, the concept is based upon reach blocking. The line flows laterally while the back reads the blocking scheme. In this case, the blocked Mike opens the 2 hole. Out of the I, one can see how the fullback has containment responsibilities on the backside of the play. Without the fullback, the crashing end comes free and is allowed to scrape down the line. Further, the reach concept towards the Will puts a less athletic player against the fastest backer. This is a fairly good example of why the backside of the play the Patriots run is frequently blown up. Without the fullback in the backside (as said previously by Unorigional), it negates a primary concept of the play.

I'll post some more examples up when I get home from work, and appologies for how crappy this picture is. I have a 1 o'clock I have to get prepped for.

JMarr · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

DaBruinz said:
You should look in the mirror before saying someone else doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

Its clear that you don't understand plain english if you think that what BB said about Maroney "wasn't flattering."

BB has NEVER been effusive about a player DURING THE SEASON. He'll say "So and so did a good job." and that's the extent of it.

He also would NEVER come out and overtly say that one of his players isn't cutting it. And we know nothing is "effusive" when it comes to BB. I happented to "interpret" his remarks completely differently--I thought this was some of the most tepid praise I've seen BB give to one of his players.

The only value (if there is any) in listening to BB's answers to these types of questions is trying to read between the lines, so to imply that you "know" that this proves he's happy with Maroney, period!, is laughable. I would expect someone who had never seen a BB interview or presser to interpret these remarks as anything substantive, much less as "flattering." For you to do so belies the fact that you know anything about BB. It also clearly shows your agenda against any negative spin on Maroney. Regardless of your level of knowledge, your know-it-all M.O. doesn't really serve you well at times.

BradyFTW! · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

JMarr said:
He also would NEVER come out and overtly say that one of his players isn't cutting it. And we know nothing is "effusive" when it comes to BB. I happented to "interpret" his remarks completely differently--I thought this was some of the most tepid praise I've seen BB give to one of his players.

Brilliant logic:

A = He's never outright said that his players suck, even though he must think it from time to time. AND

B = he's never outright said that Maroney sucks (though I'm sure that that must be what he thinks)

THEREFORE, A + B = C

C= Belichick thinks that Maroney sucks.

And as far as that being tepid praise, the fact that he went out of his way to blame someone else for not "doing their job" while maintaining that Maroney is "doing his job"- I dunno what interviews you've been watching, but that's far from common.

Kontradiction · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Steamer86 said:
Belichick said glowing things about Chad Jackson about a month before he dumped him. If he was really disappointed in him, would he tell us? I think he is trying to build him up, because we need him to step up....

On Chad Jackson's development: BB "He had a great offseason. His receiving skills have improved, his grasp of the offense is obviously better, he's still a naturally talented athlete. He's off to a good start based on the spring and we're excited to see him out there."

Wow. Welcome to joining the thread late. Please go back over the last couple of pages and read my responses to maverick4 and others. My last argument still hasn't been taken on by anybody. Perhaps you can try?

As for this thread... wow. Bill Belichick CLEARLY praises Maroney and says that the running problems have been the fault of the offensive line, and the Maroney haters are STILL trying to say that he's wrong and/or twist his words around in ways that somehow try to help their argument.

This really is getting quite pathetic.

JMarr · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

jays52 said:
The blame in the running game should also be on the zone blocking schemes the team insists on running. I get how they are effective for certain teams, but for others they simply don't work. Add to this that when linebackers see a zone team on film, it has the same effect as watching porn. From a defender's standpoint, a pass team with a zone running scheme is a dream. You're never going to be hit hard by a lineman, you don't have to worry about cracking tight ends, linemen downblocking you, traps nor pulls. It's like playing runningback. Read the flow of the line, identify the primary and secondary cuts, crash your flow responsibility, make a play. Easy, painless, fun.

The primary problem is they are not letting the linemen get into the run game mentality. Zone run blocking is the same in theory as pass blocking. Move laterally, block the head up or defender closest to the ball and deny penetration. The effectiveness of the running game is going to be a function of how willing they are to let their offensive linemen actually be offensive linemen. They have great, athletic guards. Let them pull. Baker is a beast on cracks. Let's see some eloquent run game stuff. This inside zone at TE sh*t flat out sucks.

Thanks--one of the few valuable contributions to this thread. However, if it's as easy as going away from zone blocking on running plays, then it begs the question, why don't they do it more? Saying that we don't have the right personnel to vary our blocking schemes may be true, but only goes so far in explaining the struggles in the running game at times. Maybe either BB in hindsight knows he drafted the wrong RB for the system he wants to run, or he knows that changing the blocking system isn't going to change the way LM runs very much.

Kontradiction · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

JMarr said:
Thanks--one of the few valuable contributions to this thread. However, if it's as easy as going away from zone blocking on running plays, then it begs the question, why don't they do it more? Saying that we don't have the right personnel to vary our blocking schemes may be true, but only goes so far in explaining the struggles in the running game at times. Maybe either BB in hindsight knows he drafted the wrong RB for the system he wants to run, or he knows that changing the blocking system isn't going to change the way LM runs very much.

Option C: Changing the blocking schemes would change the way our entire offense (not just run offense, but also passing offense as well) is run. When you have a quarterback and several other players that have gotten used to the same system for almost ten years now, you don't just want to change it. Also, our linemen are light and quick on their feet and are ideal for a zone blocking scheme. Changing the blocking schemes to make them try to execute an offense similar to the Giants' offense could have disasterous effects on both our backs and Brady. I'll leave it to someone else to come in here an analyze whether or not BB and Co. have started a slow transition away from the zone blocking scheme with the drafting of Sebastian Vollmer and the likely drafting of more O-Linemen like him in the near future.

LeonPowe · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Great post Apple Strudel. Notice how the Maroney bashing morons (Shall I call them MBM's from now on?) didn't even acknowledge your post. That usually lets you know you've won.

JMarr · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

BradyFTW! said:
Brilliant logic:

A = He's never outright said that his players suck, even though he must think it from time to time. AND

B = he's never outright said that Maroney sucks (though I'm sure that that must be what he thinks)

THEREFORE, A + B = C

C= Belichick thinks that Maroney sucks.
And as far as that being tepid praise, the fact that he went out of his way to blame someone else for not "doing their job" while maintaining that Maroney is "doing his job"- I dunno what interviews you've been watching, but that's far from common.

LOL. You're really stretching. Yours and DaBruinz logic:

A. BB is never effusive in his praise of his players [unless maybe they're named Seau or Bruschi, but that's beside the point]

B. BB's "praise" of Maroney wasn't effusive.

A+B=C

C. BB thinks Maroney is a fine running back, is getting the job done, and anyone who says negative things about Maroney is simply incapable of knowing what BB thinks.

And BB saying that the line could do a better job opening holes is like him saying Tom Brady could do a better job making his reads.

Deus Irae · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

JMarr said:
LOL. You're really stretching. Yours and DaBruinz logic:

A. BB is never effusive in his praise of his players [unless maybe they're named Seau or Bruschi, but that's beside the point]

B. BB's "praise" of Maroney wasn't effusive.

A+B=C

C. BB thinks Maroney is a fine running back, is getting the job done, and anyone who says negative things about Maroney is simply incapable of knowing what BB thinks.

And BB saying that the line could do a better job opening holes is like him saying Tom Brady could do a better job making his reads.

You claim that others can't read BB, but you can read him well enough to claim that the praise wasn't effusive and that his comments about the O-line are nothing more than his comments about Brady with reads, and you call DaBruinz a "know-it-all".

Mirrors, pots and kettles

Kontradiction · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

JMarr said:
LOL. You're really stretching. Yours and DaBruinz logic:

A. BB is never effusive in his praise of his players [unless maybe they're named Seau or Bruschi, but that's beside the point]

B. BB's "praise" of Maroney wasn't effusive.

A+B=C

C. BB thinks Maroney is a fine running back, is getting the job done, and anyone who says negative things about Maroney is simply incapable of knowing what BB thinks.

And BB saying that the line could do a better job opening holes is like him saying Tom Brady could do a better job making his reads.

Not really. In this case, if BB wanted to say that the problems were just on the RB without fueling a local media frenzy over it, he would have just said that Maroney needs to improve a few aspects of his game and would not have made any mention of the run blocking. In this case, he complimented Maroney, but also said that he needed to improve in some aspects (classic BB in this case) and pointed out the deficiencies in the run blocking that anyone who watches the games should be able to see (unless you're blind and listen to the games).

Kontradiction · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

By the way, I'd like to hear the people who think that the running problems are Maroney's fault, instead of the line's, thoughts on what apple strudel posted. His post has been conveniently ignored so far.

When/if you respond, please be sure to provide some evidence that the offensive line is doing a great job at run blocking and keeping defenders out of the backfield on running plays.

JMarr · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Deus Irae said:
You claim that others can't read BB, but you can read him well enough to claim that the praise wasn't effusive and that his comments about the O-line are nothing more than his comments about Brady with reads, and you call DaBruinz a "know-it-all".

Mirrors, pots and kettles

Well, let's see.....so my saying Belichick's answers aren't exactly all that informative and that his praise of Maroney wasn't exactly over-the-top makes me a "know-it-all."

OK, gotcha.

Kontradiction · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

JMarr said:
Well, let's see.....so my saying Belichick's answers aren't exactly all that informative and that his praise of Maroney wasn't exactly over-the-top makes me a "know-it-all."

OK, gotcha.

Eh, when has Belichick ever been over-the-top? By Belichick's standards, that is a pretty good amount of praise for Maroney.

Deus Irae · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

JMarr said:
Well, let's see.....so my saying Belichick's answers aren't exactly all that informative and that his praise of Maroney wasn't exactly over-the-top makes me a "know-it-all."

OK, gotcha.

Whether you think the praise of Maroney was non-existent, tepid or effusive, Belichick put the blame for the running struggles largely on the offensive line. You've conveniently ignored that, or just brushed it aside as typical Belichick.

Claiming that others are misreading Belichick and you aren't, while calling DaBruinz a "know-it-all, is hypocritical. The difference is that DaBruinz and others have the actual words to back up their position, while you are reading into the meaning of those words and acting as if you are certain of your interpretation.

DaBruinz · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

JMarr said:
He also would NEVER come out and overtly say that one of his players isn't cutting it. And we know nothing is "effusive" when it comes to BB. I happented to "interpret" his remarks completely differently--I thought this was some of the most tepid praise I've seen BB give to one of his players.

The only value (if there is any) in listening to BB's answers to these types of questions is trying to read between the lines, so to imply that you "know" that this proves he's happy with Maroney, period!, is laughable. I would expect someone who had never seen a BB interview or presser to interpret these remarks as anything substantive, much less as "flattering." For you to do so belies the fact that you know anything about BB. It also clearly shows your agenda against any negative spin on Maroney. Regardless of your level of knowledge, your know-it-all M.O. doesn't really serve you well at times.

WOW. Nothing like not knowing what you are talking about, JMarr. I don't have a know-it-all M.O. I leave that to people like Maverick4 and PA. People like you make the baseless accusation because its the only way you can feel good about yourself when it comes to the discussions at hand. And unlike you, I've readily admitted when I haven't known something or been wrong.

Maybe you should go back and read what my response was to instead of trying to attribute something to me that wasn't said. I didn't say that what BB said was flattering. Unlike you and the other detractors, I know that there are various levels of praise. I was rebutting someone else who said that BB's remarks weren't flattering of Maroney.

All I have said about Maroney is that he's a good, not great back, and that the detractors don't bother to acknowledge how the O-line blocking has been inconsistent for Maroney. BB even said the O-line needs to work on its blocking for Maroney. Did he say that Maroney needs to work on things? Yep. But he said nothing specific, unlike he did about the O-line.

BennyBledsoe · Oct 28, 2009

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Apples, I also said in that same post that for first round RBs, often the expectation (fair or not) is for them to be the next Emmitt Smith or Barry Sanders.

That's why people are disappointed, again whether fair or not.

Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maroney

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