Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maroney

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

Obviously your memory sucks because if Taylor has not played in the last 2 games how would he have NEARLY as many carries as Maroney so how does this 4 in 7 games leading in carries mean sh!t when Taylor sat 2 games already?

Duh,no play on the field and injured means no carries for Fred...are you really that dumb? - Taylor has 45 carries and Maroney has 61...but Taylor missed the last 2 games.....did you expect him to carry the ball from his couch?


Taylor would probably be at somewhere about 75-80 touches by now if healthy and Maroney obviously in the 50s or less

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Taylor's better than Maroney. I never said that he wasn't- he's a HOF running back who until he got hurt was still running at pretty close to in-his-prime level. Maroney also had more carries than Taylor in the Bills game, the same # in the Ravens game, and 2 less in the Jets game, so this explanation that you're trying to invent that Taylor was carrying the load until he got hurt is pure bull. That is true for exactly one game: the Falcons, and none of the others.

So no, it doesn't change the fact that Maroney's the starter by whatever definition you choose to use. Keep moving the goalposts though; who knows, eventually you might even stumble into a valid point...

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

BradyFTW! said:

Taylor's better than Maroney. I never said that he wasn't- he's a HOF running back who until he got hurt was still running at pretty close to in-his-prime level. Doesn't change the fact that Maroney's the starter by whatever definition you choose to use. Keep moving the goalposts though, eventually you might stumble into an actual point.

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If you consider games where the 'starter' carries 4 times and the 'backup' carries 21 times then your version of starter is just that and technically it is and you are right... but reality says that the guy who goes on the field for a few snaps and carries inadequately and then sits the rest of the game while the 'backup' carries the team should nowhere near be considered the 'starter' by any means,but you can live your dream of Maroney being the leader of this RB squad and if he really is than god bless us all,especially Brady who will have to start throwing again 45 times or more against top teams to keep the chains moving because the rushing attack won't be much help.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

If you consider games where the 'starter' carries 4 times and the 'backup' carries 21 times then your version of starter is just that and technically it is and you are right... but reality says that the guy who goes on the field for a few snaps and carries inadequately and then sits the rest of the game while the 'backup' carries the team should nowhere near be considered the 'starter' by any means,but you can live your dream of Maroney being the leader of this RB squad and if he really is than god bless us all,especially Brady who will have to start throwing again 45 times or more against top teams to keep the chains moving because the rushing attack won't be much help.

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I don't even care who's on the field at the beginning of the game. For the four games that Taylor was healthy, he absolutely carried the load for one of them. In the other 3, there was 1 game where Maroney had more carries, 1 where they had the same number, and one where Taylor had 2 more. Keep arguing against a point that nobody made, though- that makes about as much sense as your brilliant argument that the top rusher in the NFL isn't a good RB.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Only morons would blame Maroney for his lack of success this year (other than the Titans game). Our lazy, overrated offensive line can never create space for him. He's finally running hard this season, and the lardasses on the line are ruining it for him.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

The blame in the running game should also be on the zone blocking schemes the team insists on running. I get how they are effective for certain teams, but for others they simply don't work. Add to this that when linebackers see a zone team on film, it has the same effect as watching porn. From a defender's standpoint, a pass team with a zone running scheme is a dream. You're never going to be hit hard by a lineman, you don't have to worry about cracking tight ends, linemen downblocking you, traps nor pulls. It's like playing runningback. Read the flow of the line, identify the primary and secondary cuts, crash your flow responsibility, make a play. Easy, painless, fun.

The primary problem is they are not letting the linemen get into the run game mentality. Zone run blocking is the same in theory as pass blocking. Move laterally, block the head up or defender closest to the ball and deny penetration. The effectiveness of the running game is going to be a function of how willing they are to let their offensive linemen actually be offensive linemen. They have great, athletic guards. Let them pull. Baker is a beast on cracks. Let's see some eloquent run game stuff. This inside zone at TE sh*t flat out sucks.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

weswelker#83 said:

He can do a better job, but we can block better, and hopefully design more plays to get some space and get some yards.”

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Another learning opportunity for this ignorant-of-the-inner-workings-of-the-sport fan:

Coaches add to/modify the playbook in-season??? Or am I misreading this?

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Maroney is what he is.

He's a decent running back who has underperformed with respect to his first round draft status. Were he drafted third round or lower, we'd all love LoMo.

Case in point : BJGE. Undrafted but runs hard all the time and he has a fairly reliable cult following.

We all want first-round picks to be better than Jesus. First-round RBs to be the next Barry Sanders or Emmitt Smith, first-round WRs to be Art Monk or Jerry Rice...you get the point.

When they're just a GOOD football player, it just is disappointing.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

KontradictioN said:

Thank you, BB! "What I'd like to see is for us to open bigger holes". Me too. Running backs, especially ones built like Maroney, are not meant to power through 300 pound defensive linemen. Maroney is a thoroughbred. He isn't Jerome Bettis. This line's strength obviously is not run blocking, but it can always improve with extra work. Unfortunately, we are a pass first, run second team so pass blocking will always be what they work on the most.

Of course, we have plenty of "experts" here who know better than Bill Belichick does and will offer up the awesome defense that Maroney is a first round draft pick and that Bill says good things about everyone.

It's going to be funny watching this thread develop into yet another full-on Maroney debate DESPITE the fact that a three time Super Bowl winning head coach just said glowing things about him (or, as glowing as BB gets anyway).

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Belichick said glowing things about Chad Jackson about a month before he dumped him. If he was really disappointed in him, would he tell us? I think he is trying to build him up, because we need him to step up....

On Chad Jackson's development: BB "He had a great offseason. His receiving skills have improved, his grasp of the offense is obviously better, he's still a naturally talented athlete. He's off to a good start based on the spring and we're excited to see him out there."

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

jays52 said:

The blame in the running game should also be on the zone blocking schemes the team insists on running. I get how they are effective for certain teams, but for others they simply don't work. Add to this that when linebackers see a zone team on film, it has the same effect as watching porn. From a defender's standpoint, a pass team with a zone running scheme is a dream. You're never going to be hit hard by a lineman, you don't have to worry about cracking tight ends, linemen downblocking you, traps nor pulls. It's like playing runningback. Read the flow of the line, identify the primary and secondary cuts, crash your flow responsibility, make a play. Easy, painless, fun.

The primary problem is they are not letting the linemen get into the run game mentality. Zone run blocking is the same in theory as pass blocking. Move laterally, block the head up or defender closest to the ball and deny penetration. The effectiveness of the running game is going to be a function of how willing they are to let their offensive linemen actually be offensive linemen. They have great, athletic guards. Let them pull. Baker is a beast on cracks. Let's see some eloquent run game stuff. This inside zone at TE sh*t flat out sucks.

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Thank you for this post. Anyone else wanna chime in on this zone blocking stuff. I personally don't know anything about it. Ive asked in several threads about it, but no one wants to address it. All anyone wants to say is "Maroney sucks", or "Maroney is good"........

'Unoriginal' has done some o-line breakdowns. How about some input from him.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

nashvillepatsfan said:

Thank you for this post. Anyone else wanna chime in on this zone blocking stuff. I personally don't know anything about it. Ive asked in several threads about it, but no one wants to address it. All anyone wants to say is "Maroney sucks", or "Maroney is good"........

'Unoriginal' has done some o-line breakdowns. How about some input from him.

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FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Zone Blocking vs. Man Blocking

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Fencer said:

Lamont Jordan and Fred Taylor say Hi.

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Thanks for pointing out the obvious and being oblivious to what was said. Nowhere did I say that FAs weren't being brought in AFTER Maroney was drafted. The fact is that the Pats, under BB, have relied on Free Agent RBs. Antwain Smith, Mike Cloud, etc, etc. In fact, I'm pretty confident in saying that it was because of the poor quality of those RBs that BB drafted Maroney in 2006.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Steamer86 said:

Belichick said glowing things about Chad Jackson about a month before he dumped him. If he was really disappointed in him, would he tell us? I think he is trying to build him up, because we need him to step up....

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That was during TRAINING CAMP. Do you understand the difference between TRAINING CAMP and the REGULAR SEASON?

Steamer86 said:

On Chad Jackson's development: BB "He had a great offseason. His receiving skills have improved, his grasp of the offense is obviously better, he's still a naturally talented athlete. He's off to a good start based on the spring and we're excited to see him out there."

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Again, this was training camp. Not the regular season. I'm still waiting for someone to provide a quote of BB giving GLOWING PRAISE of a player during the season.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

DaBruinz said:

Thanks for pointing out the obvious and being oblivious to what was said. Nowhere did I say that FAs weren't being brought in AFTER Maroney was drafted. The fact is that the Pats, under BB, have relied on Free Agent RBs. Antwain Smith, Mike Cloud, etc, etc. In fact, I'm pretty confident in saying that it was because of the poor quality of those RBs that BB drafted Maroney in 2006.

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Actually it was because of the diminishing returns on the unfortunately extended one superbowl season wonder who has become the benchmark for the Maroney bashers that Bill drafted Maroney. Pretty ironic...

It's a waste of time and valuable brain cells arguing with most of the opinionated, know nothing (show me this made up game book???LOL) kneejerks who gravitate to any thread with Maroney's name in it.

Bill is clearly fine with Laurence's effort and he understands his production variables as well as his potential value. He not only made that clear over the last few weeks, he repeatedly tossed his OL in the general direction of the proverbial the bus (which is about as close as it gets to in season criticism from Bill since under the bus is something we're told all the time he never does...although Mankins might disagree with that assessment this week).

Also gotta love the love for two oft and early injured RB's in the face of all the complaints about Maroney's durability...

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

"Yo Laurence, I’m really happy for you and I’ma let you finish, but Corey Dillon set the Patriots' all-time single-season rushing record in 2004, totaling 1,635 yards."

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

BennyBledsoe said:

He's a decent running back who has underperformed with respect to his first round draft status. Were he drafted third round or lower, we'd all love LoMo.

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This seems to be the crux of the naysayers arguments, so of course we should ask the question: what do you expect from a first round running back? We'll go ahead and ignore the exact position in the first round anybody was drafted at for now, but we should acknowledge that it makes a huge difference. A top 10 back is expected to perform better than a back drafted in the lower third of the round.

From the 1999 to the 2009 draft, 34 running backs have been drafted in the first round. How does Maroney compare? It depends on how you slice it. His YPC is better than Deuce McAlister, Jamal Lewis, Joseph Addai, Ricky Williams, Thomas Jones, Edgerrin James, Darren McFadden, Kevin Jones, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, and 9 other players. That puts him at 15/34. So from a YPC perspective he's average for a first rounder.

His totals are on the low side, e.g., total carries and total yards. But this can be explained by how he is used and the fact that he missed time last year. E.g., he is part of a rotation and the Pats pass more than they run lately. So rather than totals we should emphasize things like rates and averages as they tell us what happens when he does get the ball.

So what is his TD rate? He scores on 3.12% of his carries, good for 17/34. Not great, but average for a first round back. His receiving TDs rate is 3.13%, good for 25/34. That's definitely on the low side, but also not a primary expectation of a running back (not to mention that it's certainly not one of the complaints given by members of this board).

How about his yards per reception? Maroney averages 10.81 yards per catch, good for 2/34. That's a stellar number. He's definitely overperforming in that area.

How about total fumbles and fumble rate? Maroney's only fumbled once and lost that fumble. His fumble rate is .22% (that's correct, there's no decimal error there), good for 1/34. A stellar number, and something this team certainly values. Less important is his fumbles lost rate, which is also .22%, which ties him for 2/34. The guys better than him or tied with him for fumbles lost rate are rookies.

So what makes a good first rounder? Being at least average compared to other first rounders should be a fair criteria, and in all meaningful categories except maybe one it seems like Maroney is either average or better than average and sometimes stellar when measured against other first round running backs drafted in the last 10 years. When he gets the ball, he's pretty good.

Here are the numbers/ranks:

Total Carries Rank
449 = 24/34

Total Yards Rank
1938 = 23/34

YPC Rank
4.32 = 15/34

Total Rushing TDs Rank
14 = 22/34

Rushing TD Rate Rank
3.12% = 17/34

Number Receptions Rank
32 = 27/34

Total Reception Yards Rank
346 = 23/34

Yards Per Reception Rank
10.81 = 2/34

Total Receiving TDs Rank
1 = 22/34

Receiving Touchdowns Rate Rank
3.13% = 25/34

Total Fumbles Rank
1 = 1T/34

Fumble Rate Rank
.22% = 1/34

Total Fumbles Lost Rank
1 = 2T/34

Fumbles Lost Rate
.22% = 2/34

I'll try and upload the spreadsheet I used to assemble the data and post a link. If anybody spots any errors (I kind of breezed through this this morning) please let me know. All the stats are from NFL.com or extrapolated from those stats.

Edit: here's the link to the spreadsheet for people to play with or correct any errors.

http://download448.mediafire.com/tyhv1djgnjig/yj2jthzqlk4/running-back-comparison.xls

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Xplicit said:

Maroney doesnt "get it" and he's never going to "get it". Taylor and Morris cant come back soon enough.

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So you disagree with what Belichick has to say in the matter? The fact that he blames the line for not opening holes for Laurence.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

maverick4 said:

The biggest problem is we don't need that kind of back on this team. Our passing game is so good that routine medium passes can get what a 'home run' back can get on occasion. What this team needs is a back who can almost always give you the 3.5 or less yards per carry that you need to convert a 1st down, and also provide solid pass protection.

I'm not sure that even the strongest Maroney defenders will want to re-sign Maroney next year, if he wants starter money.

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I think you need to check the stats posted earlier on Maroney by BradyFTW! that showed he was at the very top of consistently gaining yards necessary to stay on schedule. What you are asking for is EXACTLY what he has proven to be, and he has proven to be anything but a hit or miss 'home run' back.
Go check the research that has already been done to refute your impression. It may be eye opening.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

apple strudel said:

This seems to be the crux of the naysayers arguments, so of course we should ask the question: what do you expect from a first round running back? We'll go ahead and ignore draft position for now, but we should acknowledge that it makes a huge difference. A top 10 back is expected to perform better than a back drafted in the lower third of the round.

From the 1999 to the 2009 draft, 34 running backs have been drafted in the first round. How does Maroney compare? It depends on how you slice it. His YPC is better than Deuce McAlister, Jamal Lewis, Joseph Addai, Ricky Williams, Thomas Jones, Edgerrin James, Darren McFadden, Kevin Jones, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, and 9 other players. That puts him at 15/34. So from a YPC perspective he's average for a first rounder.

His totals are on the low side, e.g., total carries and total yards. But this can be explained by how he is used. E.g., he is part of a rotation and the Pats pass more than they run lately. So rather than totals we should emphasize things like rates and averages as they tell us what happens when he does get the ball.

So what is his TD rate? He scores on 3.12% of his carries, good for 17/34. Not great, but average for a first round back. His receiving TDs rate is 3.13%, good for 25/34. That's definitely on the low side, but also not a primary expectation of a running back (not to mention that it's certainly not one of the complaints given by members of this board).

How about his yards per reception? Maroney averages 10.81 yards per catch, good for 2/34. That's a stellar number. He's definitely overperforming in that area.

How about total fumbles and fumble rate? Maroney's only fumbled once and lost that fumble. His fumble rate is .22% (that's correct, there's no decimal error there), good for 1/34. A stellar number, and something this team certainly values. Less important is his fumbles lost rate, which is also .22%, which ties him for 2/34. The guys than him or tied with him for fumbles lost rate are rookies.

So what makes a good first rounder? Being at least average compared to other first rounders should be a fair criteria, and in all meaningful categories except maybe one it seems like Maroney is either average or better than average and sometimes stellar when measured against other first round running backs drafted in the last 10 years. When he gets the ball, he's pretty good.

Here are the numbers/ranks:

Total Carries Rank
449 = 24/34

Total Yards Rank
1938 = 23/34

YPC Rank
4.32 = 15/34

Total Rushing TDs Rank
14 = 22/34

Rushing TD Rate Rank
3.12% = 17/34

Number Receptions Rank
32 = 27/34

Total Reception Yards Rank
346 = 23/34

Yards Per Reception Rank
10.81 = 2/34

Total Receiving TDs Rank
1 = 22/34

Receiving Touchdowns Rate Rank
3.13% = 25/34

Total Fumbles Rank
1 = 1T/34

Fumble Rate Rank
.22% = 1/34

Total Fumbles Lost Rank
1 = 2T/34

Fumbles Lost Rate
.22% = 2/34

I'll try and upload the spreadsheet I used to assemble the data and post a link. If anybody spots any errors (I kind of breezed through this this morning) please let me know. All the stats are from NFL.com or extrapolated from those stats.

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Great analysis AS. I think I can sum up all Maroney is a bust/made of glass threads.

Maroney Doubter: "I think Maroney is a bust he (insert anecdotal observation here)"

Maroney Supporter: "here is a statistical analysis to counter your observation"

Maroney Doubter: "statistics lie and they don't change the way I feel about it based on my anecdotal observation"

Rinse and repeat.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

Prior to his injury Taylor had 45 carries to Maroney's 27 - I call your statement BS - show me this 'game book' to prove you are right and not making this up

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BradyFTW! is a long time poster here whos facts have always verified. I tihnk you can do better than to argue that he might be lying.
BTW, Taylor had something like 20+ of his carries in the game Maroney was injured, so that doesnt support your argument well either.

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:

Taylor had nearly double the carries to Maroney before he got injured and at the time of injury he was really starting to show his old stuff .

If you think the backs would rotate other than to keep Fred fresh your dumber than I think - As long as Fred would have kept up the 4.7 YPC he was starting and playing majority of the snaps with a some rotation mixed in but Fred was going to start as long as he kept positive play - If Maroney was so good there would be little hesitation to start him in all 7 games over a healthy RB roster.

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The only time Taylor played more than half the plays at RB (and Im not counting the Faulk plays either) was that one game WHEN MARONEY WAS INJURED