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I want someone to explain to me IN DETAIL...


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As I understand, this system was just adopted by the Denver Broncos under McDaniels. So how is it that Brandon Marshall, who is as dumb as a rock, can pick it up lickety split while Joey Galloway, who isn't that dumb, cannot?

galloway came from the west coast offense witch is a lot harder to pick up then the pats system is

but it was not that he could not pick up the system he was runing the routs and geting open he just droped the ball a lot a WR that cant catch the ball over middle is no good in the pats system

even randy moss who all most never went over the middle with the viks and oakland started to catch the ball over the middle with the pats

just a bad pick up by the pats going with a 37 year old washed up WR

if they was looking for a old WR Bobby Engram would have been a better pick up
 
galloway came from the west coast offense witch is a lot harder to pick up then the pats system is

but it was not that he could not pick up the system he was runing the routs and geting open he just droped the ball a lot a WR that cant catch the ball over middle is no good in the pats system

What drug are you taking?

There is a reason why Brett Favre excels in west coast offense..

And it's not because he's smart with the playbook.

I never thought I'd ever see someone say West Coast is harder than what the Pats do on offense.
 
What drug are you taking?

There is a reason why Brett Favre excels in west coast offense..

And it's not because he's smart with the playbook.

I never thought I'd ever see someone say West Coast is harder than what the Pats do on offense.

if the pats system is harder or not is not the point is he was runing the routs and he was geting open and brady put the ball in he's hand's and he droped it

if a rookie can pick up the pats system i find it hard to beleve that a 14 year vet cant
 
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That is not true.

For example, there was one clear cut play in preseason vs. Bengals on Moss's second TD where he was initially on an inside slant but after seeing the CB identify that play and anticipate it by shifting his weight inward, Moss, when he reached the apex of the route where he would turn inside, faked half a step inside and took off on the outside. Brady was in tune with all that, he had identified this pre-tendency in the playcalling and was ready for anything if it had happened (if X, then Y). This is a great example of sight-adjustment.

The degree of difficulty in regard to learning the Patriots offense is not the play tree itself but the modifications that go with it that form the branches which form into further branches, and those modifications are formed on tendencies, projections predicated on the post-snap look that the defense reveals, as well as the game plan, or player tendencies (again, the if X then Y). It is also sometimes sight-adjusted on defensive shifts- which is why even someone as Aiken can have trouble, even though he's been in the system for quite a while now. He ran the correct route, modification (inside slant off 3 drop) but failed to identify that the D was in man coverage, which is why he stalled right after the slant and the ball went ahead of him.

The key to understanding this is that just as the defense can morph into anything to beat whatever is needed for a particular week, so does the offense morph to equal depth. This is BB's philosophy, he does NOT stick to one particular offense (e.g., Pittsburgh "this is what we do, see if you can beat us").

But at the same time BB knows that overcomplicating the play tree serves nothing.. (that is what I believe is his true genius).

So what does he do? (and this is the base of the modified Erhardt-Perkins stuff he runs). He begins with a number of base plays that are not themselves complicated, but then when you modify it by formation, then set (e.g., 1 RB in motion on 3 wide and 1 TE) then individual route modification, then tendency, then all the adjustments (sight, defense, coverage tendencies) it gets pretty close to info overload. That is the "genius" of the Erhardt-Perkins system and also its drawback when you come to it from another system. The EP system is name based, so you would go something like "Baker" (base formation) "Yell" (adjusted formation: 1 RB to motion, 3 wide/1 TE) "twenty" (base play that comes out of the adjusted formation) "barrel" (individual route) "light" (adjustment).

So you will hear Brady say "baker yell twenty barrel light (and add a tendency option or two)."

This probably is an oxymoron that it sounds complicated, but it is not, as long as you don't lose sight of the play tree, and remember to think in terms of simple things first, then complicated, second.

Now when you come from another system, especially one that is number based, for example, let's say you have a 3 wide, you can just say "924 hook fly" where the x runs a 9 (let's say deep out) Y runs 2 (inside slant) and X runs 4 (curl) hook fly could be an option depending on what's happening in the flat or if the safeties cheat down or play zone.

Simple enough in itself, but when you shift from a numbers system to a name oriented one, it's like being forced to learn chinese in a week, if you get traded.

And on top of that, while Brady is not opposed to sight adjustments, he still likes his receivers to run precise routes with great timing so he can throw the ball before they get there. Remember that is Brady's greatest ability.. his accuracy and his ability to get rid of the ball so fast.

Wow.........I got a "semi",just from reading this.
 
What drug are you taking?

There is a reason why Brett Favre excels in west coast offense..

And it's not because he's smart with the playbook.

I never thought I'd ever see someone say West Coast is harder than what the Pats do on offense.

True story: Favre didn't know what a nickelback was until well into his tenure as the Packers' starting QB. He's outright admitted as much.
 
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That explanation is severally lacking and the one example they give was when Brady was still a rookie starter and was in the biggest game of his life. Brady ran the plays as called then and really didn't audible like he does now.

There are a variety of reasons that the Pats system is so hard to pick up.

What the explanation doesn't mention is that the receivers and Brady are expected to adjust the routes being run based on the defense they see. So that means that the receivers and Brady all have to be on the same page. And not only do they have to be on the same page, they have to know what the other receivers are expected to do as well. So, in essence, one receiver has to know exactly what 5 other guys are thinking. Otherwise, he could screw up the play in a variety of different ways. I think it was back in 2006 when Reche was talking about Brady showing them the routes and how he wanted them run that each receiver could have 5-7 different potential routes based on the defense he saw.

Also, Brady is very particular about his timing. If you remember back in 2006, he literally had to show Caldwell and the other receivers how he expected the routes to be run so they'd get onto the same page. If players are even a quarter of a second off in how they run their route, they could end up putting a defender in place to make the interception.

Now, add in that Brady has a much bigger play book than most QBs and tends to audible quite a bit, adjusting his receivers and that makes life even more complex for the offense.

As for the Broncos offense, it could be very similar, but they could have reduce it to only 3 routes per player. That takes away a LOT of potential plays. Also, the Broncos don't run nearly as many multi-receiver sets as the Pats do.
 
I appreciate all of your answers, but I'm asking for detail. So the receivers need to make adjustments. Cool. But what makes our offense's adjustments so different and more difficult to make? I see receivers from other teams make adjustments on the fly all the time. I see Steelers wide receivers make adjustments on the fly at least once a game every time I watch them. What makes our's so different?

Its not about making adjustments "on the fly." It's about making the pre-snap read the same as the QB, adjusting to what the QB is expecting and knowing how your fellow teammates will also be adjusting.

Also, I'd be willing to bet that the Steeler receivers don't have 5-7 different routes PER formation that they have to know and I'd also be willing to bet they don't have to know what the other receivers are going to be doing. And they probably don't have a QB as anal as Brady in regards to how he wants routes to be run. How the routes are run sets up his timing. I mean, if 3 seconds into the play you, as the slot receiver, are supposed to be cutting on an out pattern at 10 yards so Brady can hit you in stride so you can cut up towards the sideline and gain a couple extra yards but you are running and out and up pattern that puts the defender where the ball is going to, then its an issue.

The Patriots offensive playbook, when it was printed, was over 4 inches thick during any given year. I can't imagine how many plays that actually covers, but I bet its probably thousands..

Another thing that makes it tough is that the Patriots don't use the same formations all the time.

In a 5 receiver set, they've trotted out the following personnel so far this year:

2 RBs, 2 TEs, 1 WR
4 WR, 1RB
3 WR, 1 RB, 1 TE
3 WR, 2 TE
3 WR, 2 RB
2 WR, 1 TE, 2 RB

Now, for the formations:
Trips Left (tight)
Trips Right (tight)
Trips Left (spread)
Trips Right (spread)
1wr/1te/1te/1wr with the RB in the backfield,
1wr/1te/1te/1wr with the RB in the backfield who goes in motion prior to the snap
Overload Left (4 Receiver end up in routes on one side of the field)
Overload Right
2TE/1RB (wide) with Welker and Moss in the Backfield

And those aren't all of them.. Those are just what I remember off the top of my head..

So I can full understand how some players can't get in sync with Brady. Whether it be they aren't reading the defenses the same, they aren't running the routes the way Brady wants, or they just are understanding their entire role in the offense.
 
The Patriots offensive playbook, when it was printed, was over 4 inches thick during any given year. I can't imagine how many plays that actually covers, but I bet its probably thousands..

Another thing that makes it tough is that the Patriots don't use the same formations all the time.

In a 5 receiver set, they've trotted out the following personnel so far this year:

2 RBs, 2 TEs, 1 WR
4 WR, 1RB
3 WR, 1 RB, 1 TE
3 WR, 2 TE
3 WR, 2 RB
2 WR, 1 TE, 2 RB

Now, for the formations:
Trips Left (tight)
Trips Right (tight)
Trips Left (spread)
Trips Right (spread)
1wr/1te/1te/1wr with the RB in the backfield,
1wr/1te/1te/1wr with the RB in the backfield who goes in motion prior to the snap
Overload Left (4 Receiver end up in routes on one side of the field)
Overload Right
2TE/1RB (wide) with Welker and Moss in the Backfield

And when you understand that most formation, set, and play be combined in any way, with an infinite number of modifications and tendenices, you understand just how much combinations there are that can be run.
 
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if the pats system is harder or not is not the point is he was runing the routs and he was geting open and brady put the ball in he's hand's and he droped it

if a rookie can pick up the pats system i find it hard to beleve that a 14 year vet cant

You clearly have never worked in a factory setting and tried to change things "from the way we've done it for 10+ years."

People are creatures of habit. Plain and simple. Galloway came from systems that were drastically different from the Pats system. In terminology. In expectations of the players on a given play. Its not very easy to learn new terminology AND take on more responsibilities on each play.

Galloway wasn't always getting open. In fact, he wasn't getting open much. However, the times he did, Brady did give him the opportunity to succeed by, mostly, putting the ball into a place where Galloway should have caught it.

In keeping with the factory example, most factories have extra people who can fill in on multiple jobs because they are cross-trained to do so. They are required to know multiple different assembly processes. Not everyone has the ability to do this. It was mentioned back in 2003 or 2004 that the receivers are responsible not only for their routes, but the routes of the other receivers on the field as well. The reason being that the Patriots cross-trained for injury protection. So that they can continue to run the same plays regardless of who is lined up at the position. People used to say that the Pats were "Plug and Play" at receiver because when Brown went down, Branch and Givens stepped up. And then when Branch went down, Brown and Givens took over. Etc. Etc.

QBs have to know a plethora of information. Like every single play and who is supposed to do what on those plays. Because they have to know that, they are like the cross-trained workers I mentioned. And because of that it easier for a guy like Edelman to come in and learn the play-book because that's how he's wired. To be flexible and adapt. To learn the play book with as few repetitions as possible. He's had years of reading defenses and adjusting to them and learning what his receivers are expected to do. So, he can easily put himself in the place of the receiver and do what's expected. The fact that he's got speed, agility and height (6') , are bonuses for him. Yes, he's got to learn the new terminology and the new routes and such, but that is something he's used to doing, just from the other end.

Galloway, on the other hand, is like the old veteran who has done the job the same way for 20 years and isn't willing to change. The old vet tends to have bad habits and expects that people will over-look them because he can "still do the job." Regardless of the fact that he's not doing the job the way others want him to do it.

I honestly had high hopes for Galloway. I thought that he could be what Donald Hayes, Andre Davis, Chad Jackson and Donte Stallworth weren't. A guy who could stretch the field and help open up the middle for guys like Welker and Watson. BB obviously hoped that as well. Unfortunately for all involved, it didn't happen.

My hope is that Tate has been learning from Moss, Edelman, Brady and Welker in the film room and not from Galloway. Tate has the potential to be the receiver opposite Moss that we've all hoped for. Only time will tell if the youngster can do so.
 
Now, add in that Brady has a much bigger play book than most QBs and tends to audible quite a bit, adjusting his receivers and that makes life even more complex for the offense.

The offense philosophy (as far as the route modification and tendency calls) is built around Brady's strength in reading defenses and picking it apart. Pre-snap, he knows 90% of the time what is coming, and right after the snap, he knows 99% of the time. This is why he audibles so much, even more than most QBs.

Hence all of the modifications that are built in on the routes, formations, and tendencies, so that he can audible to a much greater extent based on his diagnosis, to go into great details if needed (playing off his sheer determination and desire to pick apart the coverages and fronts). BB has spoke of the need to be sharp as a HC in terms of preparation, or be called out by Brady.

Simple minded QB's on the other hand, like Favre do simple XYZ assignation and RB/TE option with no modification and love to improvise if the play breaks down or there is nothing left to checkdown. This works in the regular season but almost never in the playoffs. In 20 years he has reached the superbowl once, and I would argue that anyone who stick around for 20 years will eventually get somewhere. I would fall down if I heard that Favre has actually audibled once in his NFL career.
 
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T
Simple minded QB's on the other hand, like Favre do simple XYZ assignation and RB/TE option with no modification and love to improvise if the play breaks down or there is nothing left to checkdown. This works in the regular season but almost never in the playoffs. In 20 years he has reached the superbowl once, and I would argue that anyone who stick around for 20 years will eventually get somewhere. I would fall down if I heard that Favre has actually audibled once in his NFL career.

Considering that you're sitting on the floor, its kinda hard for you to fall anywhere.... :singing: j/k

That being said, I have seen Favre audible. Usually its to either a hot passing route from a run or to max protection from the standard that they had.... They are, technically, audibles though most of us would write it off to just pre-snap reads ala Brady and Manning.
 
Considering that you're sitting on the floor, its kinda hard for you to fall anywhere.... :singing: j/k

That being said, I have seen Favre audible. Usually its to either a hot passing route from a run or to max protection from the standard that they had.... They are, technically, audibles though most of us would write it off to just pre-snap reads ala Brady and Manning.

Yeah slight exaggeration there, but just showing how much offensive acumen I think he has. :cool:
 
QBs have to know a plethora of information. Like every single play and who is supposed to do what on those plays. Because they have to know that, they are like the cross-trained workers I mentioned. And because of that it easier for a guy like Edelman to come in and learn the play-book because that's how he's wired. To be flexible and adapt. To learn the play book with as few repetitions as possible. He's had years of reading defenses and adjusting to them and learning what his receivers are expected to do. So, he can easily put himself in the place of the receiver and do what's expected. The fact that he's got speed, agility and height (6') , are bonuses for him. Yes, he's got to learn the new terminology and the new routes and such, but that is something he's used to doing, just from the other end.

As a side note to this, I'd point out that the track record for QBs converting to WR in the NFL is very good. Most QBs aren't athletic enough to play WR, but the ones that are have a significant leg up in adjusting to the NFL game, basically for this reason.
 
Awesome thread, gents. Patpsycho, you should definitely save that Wikipedia page from itself.

Now when you come from another system, especially one that is number based, for example, let's say you have a 3 wide, you can just say "924 hook fly" where the x runs a 9 (let's say deep out) Y runs 2 (inside slant) and X runs 4 (curl) hook fly could be an option depending on what's happening in the flat or if the safeties cheat down or play zone.

DB, touched on this wrt the Steeler's offense. In the case of Galloway, there is a different term for each combination of patterns. Where he might just need to hear the 9 in a 924 to know his route and those of the other two receivers, and he's going to be downfield more often than not in a zone where the other receivers routes don't affect his as much, and thus his reads are more consisten. In the Pats offense, there are often four receivers out there, with various combinations of routes each having a unique term - one for the receivers on either side of the QB. Galloway would need to hear that term, know his route, know the routes of the other receivers who might end up in his part of the field (depending on the length of the drop), and determine which adjustments that route combination makes based on the defense - the DB drop, the safety alignment, and the corner technique/position.

Add to that the loss of explosiveness (and perhaps courage) with age, and Galloway simply wasn't good enough.

Makes me wonder why they don't start training camp with a good combine-type workout to see where their verteran's skills are, rather than just doing the conditioning run. Galloway may still run a low 4s 40, but his shuttle run time has probably dropped dramatically. That would be a good thing to know early in TC, rather than wondering if his lack of explosiveness is simply confidence-related.
 
Just bumping this because it shouldn't be on page two since after throwing down the gauntlet so to speak, Kontra apparently hasn't even had an opportunity to acknowledge much of the effort that a couple of posters put into their explanations.
 
Just bumping this because it shouldn't be on page two since after throwing down the gauntlet so to speak, Kontra apparently hasn't even had an opportunity to acknowledge much of the effort that a couple of posters put into their explanations.

I have, just not in this thread. DaBruinz and Patspsycho absolutely killed it. THOSE were the kind of analysis I was looking for. Actually, I think this thread, or just those posts, should be stickied for those posters, such as myself, that weren't too up and up on the fine details of our offensive system.
 
I have, just not in this thread. DaBruinz and Patspsycho absolutely killed it. THOSE were the kind of analysis I was looking for. Actually, I think this thread, or just those posts, should be stickied for those posters, such as myself, that weren't too up and up on the fine details of our offensive system.


I concur with the stickying... Could come in handy for context as we discuss WR options and activation decisions going forward.
 
That is not true.

For example, there was one clear cut play in preseason vs. Bengals on Moss's second TD where he was initially on an inside slant but after seeing the CB identify that play and anticipate it by shifting his weight inward, Moss, when he reached the apex of the route where he would turn inside, faked half a step inside and took off on the outside. Brady was in tune with all that, he had identified this pre-tendency in the playcalling and was ready for anything if it had happened (if X, then Y). This is a great example of sight-adjustment.

The degree of difficulty in regard to learning the Patriots offense is not the play tree itself but the modifications that go with it that form the branches which form into further branches, and those modifications are formed on tendencies, projections predicated on the post-snap look that the defense reveals, as well as the game plan, or player tendencies (again, the if X then Y). It is also sometimes sight-adjusted on defensive shifts- which is why even someone as Aiken can have trouble, even though he's been in the system for quite a while now. He ran the correct route, modification (inside slant off 3 drop) but failed to identify that the D was in man coverage, which is why he stalled right after the slant and the ball went ahead of him.

The key to understanding this is that just as the defense can morph into anything to beat whatever is needed for a particular week, so does the offense morph to equal depth. This is BB's philosophy, he does NOT stick to one particular offense (e.g., Pittsburgh "this is what we do, see if you can beat us").

But at the same time BB knows that overcomplicating the play tree serves nothing.. (that is what I believe is his true genius).

So what does he do? (and this is the base of the modified Erhardt-Perkins stuff he runs). He begins with a number of base plays that are not themselves complicated, but then when you modify it by formation, then set (e.g., 1 RB in motion on 3 wide and 1 TE) then individual route modification, then tendency, then all the adjustments (sight, defense, coverage tendencies) it gets pretty close to info overload. That is the "genius" of the Erhardt-Perkins system and also its drawback when you come to it from another system. The EP system is name based, so you would go something like "Baker" (base formation) "Yell" (adjusted formation: 1 RB to motion, 3 wide/1 TE) "twenty" (base play that comes out of the adjusted formation) "barrel" (individual route) "light" (adjustment).

So you will hear Brady say "baker yell twenty barrel light (and add a tendency option or two)."

This probably is an oxymoron that it sounds complicated, but it is not, as long as you don't lose sight of the play tree, and remember to think in terms of simple things first, then complicated, second.

Now when you come from another system, especially one that is number based, for example, let's say you have a 3 wide, you can just say "924 hook fly" where the x runs a 9 (let's say deep out) Y runs 2 (inside slant) and X runs 4 (curl) hook fly could be an option depending on what's happening in the flat or if the safeties cheat down or play zone.

Simple enough in itself, but when you shift from a numbers system to a name oriented one, it's like being forced to learn chinese in a week, if you get traded.

And on top of that, while Brady is not opposed to sight adjustments, he still likes his receivers to run precise routes with great timing so he can throw the ball before they get there. Remember that is Brady's greatest ability.. his accuracy and his ability to get rid of the ball so fast.

I love this post.
 
Threads like these always make me happy I visit this site :)
 
Just awesome. . .
 
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