Best QB Debate: Most Clutch Under Pressure

Dirk3601215 said:

Who do we think is more physically talented? Brady or Manning?

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Neither one; Jeff George wins that honor.

jmt57 said:

Neither one; Jeff George wins that honor.

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hmmm, fascinating.

This has been a pretty strong debate and got me thinking. There are 10 QBs with 2 rings or more... how do you rank them? I have them ordered like this, but most importantly I have Brady at 2 behind Montana.

My Pittsburgh in-laws think Bradshaw can't be any lower than 2 since he is 4-0. Thoughts?

jmt57 said:

Neither one; Jeff George wins that honor.

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You actually may be right- Jeff George had perhaps the quickest release I ever saw, or right there with Marino, and had a great arm...

and a two cent brain!

He would mess up plays, yell at teammates, be unprepared, couldn't lead his way out of a paper bag. Yet PHYSICALLY he ruled, when young anyway.

Just shows you the physical side is pretty unimportant with the exception of at least adequate arm strength. Wasn't Tom's 40 at the combine among the slowest ever?

How could I not post on this thread.

First, great thread, good debate.

Second, can we end the "Ben doesn't belong in the conversation" nonsense already? I mean really, the guy is clutch. He can make all the throws and wins big games and makes big throws in big spots at big moments. He's in the conversation. His 2nd Ring put him there. Also, the "but the Steelers defense is so good" Yeah, and the Pats defense was one of the best in the league during their run of 3 in 4 years. Also, the Steelers "running game" was 23rd this past season with guys like Moore, and Russell as a part of it.

So we get to the debate of who's the most Clutch. If we are talking all time, it has to be Montana. The man is legend.

If we are talking active QBs, right now. Most Clutch, I'd say Brady. He always seems to have that "last drive" in him and not crack under pressure. The Patriots Defense clearly had the let down, with the help of a miracle catch by Tyree, but for me, in that game, on that drive, the 3rd and 11 play after the "catch" was a bigger let down. You had them. That 3rd and 11 killed you. However, if there had been 2 mins on the clock when the Pats got the ball back, Giants fans would have had their heads down knowing "we gave Brady too much time".

So Brady is still number 1 right now. 3 Rings and lots of clutch games under his belt and he's very cool under pressure.

That puts it to the rest of the guys. So the question would be to other fans, who would you rather have, you're guy, or Ben. If you have Payton Manning, you'd say Payton, maybe even Eli, you'd stick with your guy, but who else would the fans of other teams prefer over Ben at this point? Breese? He's never won a big game. Rivers? Not proven yet. Cutler? Mr Traded Franchise Guy? Donavan I just threw up in my mouth during the Super Bowl cause I can't handle pressure McNabb?

Now for Payton, I argue he chokes more often than not. Lots of one and dones and even in the game vs the Steelers, after the Bettis Fumble, he lead his team down the field sure, but missed 2 of 2 passes on 2nd and 3rd down to leave Vandy with a 48 yard field goal attempt that went wide. He makes just one of those passes, they probably win that game. He missed both, both defended by McFadden the Rookie. That's not so clutch. His one big game is against the Pats in the AFC Title game. That Superbowl against the Bears he wasn't great.

Now stats, Manning is the man, but if I need one QB for one drive for my team. I'm taking Ben over Payton every single time. As for Brady, I can't say that out loud, it would violate all my fandom ethics. But Brady is the most clutch in the NFL at this point. I'll admit that.

PatsChowder said:

This has been a pretty strong debate and got me thinking. There are 10 QBs with 2 rings or more... how do you rank them? I have them ordered like this, but most importantly I have Brady at 2 behind Montana.

My Pittsburgh in-laws think Bradshaw can't be any lower than 2 since he is 4-0. Thoughts?

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My thoughts:

Terry Bradshaw 1st Superbowl appearance QB Rating 108.0
Tom Brady 1st Superbowl appearance QB Rating 86.2
Joe Montana 1st Superbowl appearance QB Rating 100.0

Terry Bradshaw 2nd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 122.5
Tom Brady 2nd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 100.5
Joe Montana 2nd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 127.2

Terry Bradshaw 3rd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 119.2
Tom Brady 3rd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 110.2
Joe Montana 3rd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 115.2

Terry Bradshaw 4th Superbowl appearance QB Rating 101.9
Tom Brady 4th Superbowl appearance QB Rating 82.5
Joe Montana 4th Superbowl appearance QB Rating 147.6

Who’s the best of those three in Big Games?

Montana is #1. Bradshaw is #2.

Dino 6 Rings said:

My thoughts:

Terry Bradshaw 1st Superbowl appearance QB Rating 108.0
Tom Brady 1st Superbowl appearance QB Rating 86.2
Joe Montana 1st Superbowl appearance QB Rating 100.0

Terry Bradshaw 2nd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 122.5
Tom Brady 2nd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 100.5
Joe Montana 2nd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 127.2

Terry Bradshaw 3rd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 119.2
Tom Brady 3rd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 110.2
Joe Montana 3rd Superbowl appearance QB Rating 115.2

Terry Bradshaw 4th Superbowl appearance QB Rating 101.9
Tom Brady 4th Superbowl appearance QB Rating 82.5
Joe Montana 4th Superbowl appearance QB Rating 147.6

Who’s the best of those three in Big Games?

Montana is #1. Bradshaw is #2.

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Those are compelling stats, and coming back at you over them feels a little homerish for me. Bradshaw and Montana have four rings each. Period. Until TB gets his fourth, those two guys are in a class by themselves. Please remember I said that as you read what I have to say below.

First of all, I think the question posed by the OP wasn't to identify the "best...in big games" (as you have it) but "clutch under pressure."

I think the analysis of Bradshaw, Brady and Montana yields different answers and shows that simply looking at Pass Ratings isn't going to answer the question that is on the table and not the one that you have interpolated here.

In SB IX, Bradshaw did get a high Pass Rating, but threw for just 96 yards in what was primarily a ground attack led by MVP Franco Harris' 158 rushing yards.

IN SB X, Bradshaw threw for 200+ yards, but the game was remembered for MVP Lynn Swann's two memorable catches. This is not to take anything away from Terry, but simply to say that this win was more about Swann than Bradshaw.

In SB XIII, MVP Bradshaw was indeed "the show." No doubt, no question.

Bradshaw was also MVP in SB XIV, but he did marvel afterwards at how he received the honor after throwing three INT's.

So, I think you can say that Bradshaw did what he had to do to win four big games. That is awesome. That is historic and he's in a class by himself, but I don't think it's a "dis" on him to say that these were not all "clutch" performances. In fact, I doubt he would say that himself.

In SB XVI, Montana was named MVP of a game that was characterized by turnovers. He received the honor because he took command of the game at two critical junctures. It was definitely "clutch" even if it wasn't pretty.

SB XIX was a blowout. Montana was great, but "clutch" doesn't describe it.

SB XXIII was one of the greatest SB games of all times in which Montana led his team back from behind in the closing moments of the game. This was indeed a great, clutch performance, one of the greatest of all times in a big game.

SB XXIV was a 45 point blowout, led by MVP Montana. Super performance, but "clutch" has never been used to describe it.

So, two of Montana's SB wins were true clutch performances; two were laughers.

Tom Brady's performance at the end of SB XXVI was one of the greatest clutch performances of all times. As John Madden put it, "What Tom Brady just did gives me goose bumps." It is disrespectful of Brady and of the game to say that this was not clutch.

At the end of SB XXXVIII, aided by an errant Carolina kick, Brady again led his team to a last minute, game winning FG. That too was a great clutch moment in SB history.

SB XXXIX was characterized more by Philly's ineptness in the fourth quarter than it was by history-making Patriot play. But, like Terry Bradshaw before him, Tom Brady found a way to win this game, sealed by a Rodney Harrison INT in the closing moments.

As for SB XLIII, "winners tell stories, losers make excuses." Brady led his team to a four point lead with three minutes to go. The D couldn't hold the lead and Brady was out of miracles with no timeouts from his own 13 yard line with a minute or so to go. There are those on this board who will say that the Giants were lucky and that Brady would be remembered for the comeback if Tyree hadn't trapped the ball on his helmet. To that I repeat one of Bill Belichick's favorite sayings: "The winning team is the one that finds a way to make a play when it has to make one." The Giants did; we didn't. End of story.

Very nice well thought out retort. Clutch performances can be considered different than "best in big games" I'll give you that one. But I still like my man Terry over everyone else cause I'm a blind Homer lol.

I remember Brady's drive against the Rams, I was pulling for the Pats that year cause I hated the Rams and am an AFC first kind of guy most of the time. It was a great game.

I will admit to being a homer. In fact, I think a lot of fans are... so sue us. Maybe my ranking of Brady over Bradshaw is premature, but this is my problem.

When the Steelers fans talk about how great the 70s teams were it Jack Lambert and Mean Joe and Jack Ham and Franco Harris that get brought up. Bradshaw is a sidebar to the whole thing.

Maybe it is an undeserved knock. Maybe it's because I never got to see him play. Thinking back, I probably should have ranked Elway behind Bradshaw, but I think there is little doubt that Brady and Elway each were the reason that their teams were able to pull out the big wins. You can't say that about Bradshaw.

Dino 6 Rings said:

Very nice well thought out retort. Clutch performances can be considered different than "best in big games" I'll give you that one. But I still like my man Terry over everyone else cause I'm a blind Homer lol.

I remember Brady's drive against the Rams, I was pulling for the Pats that year cause I hated the Rams and am an AFC first kind of guy most of the time. It was a great game.

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Thanks for a rational response. It's nice to talk football seriously with people who take the game seriously, even when we disagree. As I said, Bradshaw and Montana are in a class by themselves with four rings. There's really no getting around that. IMHO, Tom Brady still has three to five very productive seasons ahead of him to reach or exceed that level. If he joins the four ring club, I'd then argue that he is the greatest ever hands down by virtue of doing it post cap and free agency.

PatsChowder said:

I will admit to being a homer. In fact, I think a lot of fans are... so sue us. Maybe my ranking of Brady over Bradshaw is premature, but this is my problem.

When the Steelers fans talk about how great the 70s teams were it Jack Lambert and Mean Joe and Jack Ham and Franco Harris that get brought up. Bradshaw is a sidebar to the whole thing.

Maybe it is an undeserved knock. Maybe it's because I never got to see him play. Thinking back, I probably should have ranked Elway behind Bradshaw, but I think there is little doubt that Brady and Elway each were the reason that their teams were able to pull out the big wins. You can't say that about Bradshaw.

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I get your point with some Steelers fans bringing up people like Greene or Harris or Lambert or Blunt when they talk about the Steelers of the 70s. But you have to realize, that the way Noll and Bradshaw ended their relationship was very bad. Lots of people in Pittsburgh turned on Bradshaw because of some biting things he had to say about his Coach, who people loved. It would be like if Brady and Bellichick had a falling out, and Brady left after this season and never played again, but talked smack about Bill over and over again. I'd bet a lot of Patriots fans would side with Bill and would talk about Vrabel and Harrison and Bruschi, Vinatieri, Seymour.

After leaving Pittsburgh in 1983, Bradshaw didn't return to the sidelines of a Steelers game til 2002. That's a long time for a Guy who was a hero to feel "not welcome" in the City.

That "break up" is why I believe so many Steelers fans have gravitated toward other great players on that team. Me, I'm a Terry Guy. So for me, He's the man, if not for him on that team, we don't win a single Super Bowl in the 1970s. I say that with complete confidence.

I couldn't disagree more if brady and BB had a fallout and Brady moved on I mean yea we love BB but c'mon to totally place Brady on the backburner when it comes to key members of our dynasty the defense was key but I would place no single member of the defense over Brady as far as importance like I'm sure steeler fans can even franco Harris garners that honor no one puts antwain smith or kevin faulk or even corey dillion in the conversation with Brady in that regard

LOL best qb debate... Are they also debating over what color the sky is?

yea the sky is blue, red and silver everyone knows this