Is Michael Johnson an underrated DE in this draft?

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 16, 2009

tjones7 said:
Very good points all around...especially Roseanne, I imagine she could quite easily crush a mans head.

I absolutely agree that Johnson struggled with the run, as you pointed out he never even bothered with gap responsibility. I just see a higher upside with Johnson, and if it came down to I would prefer MJ at #47 over Barwin at 23 or 34... agree to disagree?

I thought we'd already agreed to disagree or I wouldn't have been so disagreeable.

I think Day One for Johnson is too risky. He's probably a very nice kid, Team Captain so he's popular with his teammates, but when it comes to leading by example and working on the areas where he's weakest he's telling me #97 is too much to risk on his athleticism, that 5th comp pick seems about right. I'll cheerfully see Barwin drafted at #23 because he's already shown he'll work to get better than he is now.

Regarding Barwin & the run game, from NFL Draft Scout's profile in the Career Notes section: "The opposition averaged minus 0.30 yards on 50 rushing attempts and completed only 2 of 33 passes (6.06 percent) into Barwin's area during the 2008 season."

For fun, check out the NFL Draft Scout profiles for Barwin (31) and Johnson (42), I found the 2008 game analysis for each prospect revealing. NFL Draft - 2009 Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com Football

For the question on better coaching, Georgia Tech has been a competitive team, I believe their former DC is now coaching at Notre Dame with Charlie and their former Head Coach was retained in KC on Haley's staff. The new Head Coach came over from Navy where he had been so competitive. I don't see it as a coaching issue.

tjones7 · Apr 16, 2009

Box_O_Rocks said:
I thought we'd already agreed to disagree or I wouldn't have been so disagreeable.

I think Day One for Johnson is too risky. He's probably a very nice kid, Team Captain so he's popular with his teammates, but when it comes to leading by example and working on the areas where he's weakest he's telling me #97 is too much to risk on his athleticism, that 5th comp pick seems about right. I'll cheerfully see Barwin drafted at #23 because he's already shown he'll work to get better than he is now.

Regarding Barwin & the run game, from NFL Draft Scout's profile in the Career Notes section: "The opposition averaged minus 0.30 yards on 50 rushing attempts and completed only 2 of 33 passes (6.06 percent) into Barwin's area during the 2008 season."

For fun, check out the NFL Draft Scout profiles for Barwin (31) and Johnson (42), I found the 2008 game analysis for each prospect revealing. NFL Draft - 2009 Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com Football

For the question on better coaching, Georgia Tech has been a competitive team, I believe their former DC is now coaching at Notre Dame with Charlie and their former Head Coach was retained in KC on Haley's staff. The new Head Coach came over from Navy where he had been so competitive. I don't see it as a coaching issue.

I took a look at Barwin's page and lo and behold:
4/15/2009 - Perfect fit: Connor Barwin, DE-LB-TE, Patriots: The Mike Vrabel clone just seems like a great fit for the Patriots at the top of the second round -- if they don't pick a linebacker in the first round. - Chad Reuter, The Sports Xchange, NFL Draft Scout

haha doesn't look like I can win...

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 16, 2009

tjones7 said:
haha doesn't look like I can win...

Aw, Mike Mayock would just say that's the media getting all warm over his athleticism.

Like I said, check out his 2008 game analysis and compare it to the one they did for Johnson. That's why I say there's no comparison.

billdog3484 · Apr 16, 2009

he's one of those guys who will either be a very good NFL player or a bust. He has the tools to be a top player in this league, but many questions remain about whether he can translate those skills onto the playing field on a consistent basis. Teams willing to take the risk will do so on this player. I'd say, in the first round, teams would be reaching, but as the second round unfolds, he could be one of those players dangling around 40-50 where teams could potentially acquire a steal.

tjones7 · Apr 16, 2009

Box_O_Rocks said:
Aw, Mike Mayock would just say that's the media getting all warm over his athleticism.

Like I said, check out his 2008 game analysis and compare it to the one they did for Johnson. That's why I say there's no comparison.

Wow, its only about 6.5 times longer... Probably a stupid question, but the scale they use, is it out of 10?

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 16, 2009

tjones7 said:
Probably a stupid question, but the scale they use, is it out of 10?

I wish I knew. I enjoyed reading that section the other day when patchick noticed the updates, but the part you forced me to notice was the actual game analysis below it that discusses the highlights on the field - it just impressed me even more.

mayoclinic · Apr 16, 2009

PATRIOTSFANINPA said:
Are we going to continue with this stupidity of calling Gholston a bust based on his rookie season because he was a Jet and because Mayo turned out good for us?. - Who says Gholston won't turn it around under Ryan and do any of you know if Mayo won't struggle in his sophomore year?

Maroney sucked in his rookie season while the lower #1 draft pick Addai played a big role in the Colts winning the SB that season yet you clowns still say give Maroney hope 4 years later?.

Some of you guys need to get real - If Gholston had the season in NE that he had in NY last year,a few of you clowns would have said 'give him 3 years',but he is not a Patriot so after 1 season he is a bum

Now back to the original thought of this thread ...

First of all, however he may turn out in the long run, Gholston was a bust last year. His lack of productivity was monumental for a top 10 pick - he wasn't even making the game day roster by the end of the year, and he looked totally lost. I blame part of that on Gholston being a poor fit for a 3-4 OLB conversion, and partly on poor use by Mangini. He may eventaully get it. and I have no doubt Rex Ryan will play to his strengths better, but I have always been skeptical about Gholston's ability to play in space and will continue to be skeptical until he shows otherwise.

Markney has only been out for 3 years. He has shown flashes of potential but has had injuries, and clearly hasn't put it together the way we all hoped he would. He remains a cost-effective part of a very effective RB tandem, so there is no compelling reason to jettison him before his contract is up.

Back to the post, I think that whatever else he may or may not be, Michael Johnson is a major liability against the run, and that would preclude my taking him earlier than #47, if at all.

tjones7 · Apr 16, 2009

Box_O_Rocks said:
I wish I knew. I enjoyed reading that section the other day when patchick noticed the updates, but the part you forced me to notice was the actual game analysis below it that discusses the highlights on the field - it just impressed me even more.

I was wondering about that game analysis actually, other than the part where every other defensive player I looked at had an "game analysis" that was 5 to 6 times longer, but they each had a section "Defensive impact".

And there isn't one for MJ. They didn't seem to excited about him as a prospect and perhaps they just decided that he has no impact on games.

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 16, 2009

tjones7 said:
I was wondering about that game analysis actually, other than the part where every other defensive player I looked at had an "game analysis" that was 5 to 6 times longer, but they each had a section "Defensive impact".

And there isn't one for MJ. They didn't seem to excited about him as a prospect and perhaps they just decided that he has no impact on games.

Yep, I wish some of what they did had been more consistent across the profiles - for example the Maybin profile had breakdowns that didn't match up to the others, it made it so much harder to see how he measured up with the other DE/OLBs we're trying to assess. But you could certainly come away thinking the analyst doing Johnson's profile got bored or disgusted or disillusioned.

tjones7 · Apr 16, 2009

Box_O_Rocks said:
Yep, I wish some of what they did had been more consistent across the profiles - for example the Maybin profile had breakdowns that didn't match up to the others, it made it so much harder to see how he measured up with the other DE/OLBs we're trying to assess. But you could certainly come away thinking the analyst doing Johnson's profile got bored or disgusted or disillusioned.

It looks like they used the OLB categories to grade Maybin, but have him listed as a DE.

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 16, 2009

tjones7 said:
It looks like they used the OLB categories to grade Maybin, but have him listed as a DE.

Velly interesting, none of the OLBs had been graded when I was looking at the DE/OLB types after patchick's note. There's some more reading for me.

BlackFrancis · Apr 16, 2009

I look at Johnson a little differently. I believe it would be a very real mistake to simply overlook him as an OLB prospect. Players with his size, speed and athleticism do not show up in every draft, especially in the second round. Granted, he's got the second round projection because of an overall lack of production at GT.

Many folks overlook Johnson's proven ability to drop into coverage - and sometimes, I swear it is almost willful. This is a guy who was used quite a bit last season in zone blitz schemes and while he never displayed an actual affinity for following a receiver through his route, he looked pretty damned good dropping into zones and playing handball with anything thrown into or over his zone. Johnson also looked excellent in the coverage drills at the combine - something Mayock commented on live on NFLN's combine coverage but has seemingly wiped from his memory since the broadcast. This is the one guy OLB candidate besides Sintim that I have no worries about looking robotic in coverage from a LB position.

He gets ripped on for slacking against the run but outside of the bowl game against LSU, is this really the case? I mean, his technique is frankly not good when he has to set the edge but I hadn't noticed him actually dogging it against the run last season, something that is borne out by hsi TFL numbers. I believe a lot of this analysis directly stems from Mayock's "game tape" comment. Somebody watch the Georgia game at Sanford and tell me how many plays Michael Johnson took off - special teams included. Johnson was all over the place that day and I believe that game is a one of the harbingers of things to come for this kid if he ever gets it.

Nobody really dogs his athleticism or his potential as a pass rusher, so I'll skip writing sonnets of love for those attributes. I'll say this, though - everybody I've heard talk about this kid, aside from Mike Mayock, tout his work ethic. He played special teams as well as his defensive snaps all last season, something which some folks speculated left him worn down late in games. He seems to at least have half a brain as well, which can only help.

I don't know - I see a lot of people just ignore Michael Johnson as a pro linebacker prospect. I've read that he is better suited to be a 4-3 end, despite my eyes telling me he'd be better standing up. I'm not saying this will be the best OLB coming out of this draft or that the Patriots should draft him. He's definitely a project and has a lot of similarities to Shawn Crable, who was not ready to be on the active roster last season. Still, I see a lot of things with Johnson's upside that guys like Ayers, English, Brown and the USC kids simply do not possess. I'm not worried about having someone show a 6-7, 265 lb monster how to be stout in rush defense. I am far more worried about those other fire hydrants being able to back peddle into coverage without blowing the scheme.

Anyway, just my 200 cents.

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 16, 2009

He did look good in coverage, which earned him points with me, but no better than my favorite did when I watched him play. BB's 3-4 is predicated on stopping the run - stop the run and you make the other team one dimensional. If teams can run against Johnson, then it's Beisel in the run game all over again - a weak spot to be exploited. I agree with your coverage point, but as long as BB wants to play run first, I can't see him risking a Day One pick on Johnson - it's not like Johnson didn't have four seasons at GT to better himself there.

mayoclinic · Apr 16, 2009

BlackFrancis said:
I look at Johnson a little differently. I believe it would be a very real mistake to simply overlook him as an OLB prospect. Players with his size, speed and athleticism do not show up in every draft, especially in the second round. Granted, he's got the second round projection because of an overall lack of production at GT.

Many folks overlook Johnson's proven ability to drop into coverage - and sometimes, I swear it is almost willful. This is a guy who was used quite a bit last season in zone blitz schemes and while he never displayed an actual affinity for following a receiver through his route, he looked pretty damned good dropping into zones and playing handball with anything thrown into or over his zone. Johnson also looked excellent in the coverage drills at the combine - something Mayock commented on live on NFLN's combine coverage but has seemingly wiped from his memory since the broadcast. This is the one guy OLB candidate besides Sintim that I have no worries about looking robotic in coverage from a LB position.

He gets ripped on for slacking against the run but outside of the bowl game against LSU, is this really the case? I mean, his technique is frankly not good when he has to set the edge but I hadn't noticed him actually dogging it against the run last season, something that is borne out by hsi TFL numbers. I believe a lot of this analysis directly stems from Mayock's "game tape" comment. Somebody watch the Georgia game at Sanford and tell me how many plays Michael Johnson took off - special teams included. Johnson was all over the place that day and I believe that game is a one of the harbingers of things to come for this kid if he ever gets it.

Nobody really dogs his athleticism or his potential as a pass rusher, so I'll skip writing sonnets of love for those attributes. I'll say this, though - everybody I've heard talk about this kid, aside from Mike Mayock, tout his work ethic. He played special teams as well as his defensive snaps all last season, something which some folks speculated left him worn down late in games. He seems to at least have half a brain as well, which can only help.

I don't know - I see a lot of people just ignore Michael Johnson as a pro linebacker prospect. I've read that he is better suited to be a 4-3 end, despite my eyes telling me he'd be better standing up. I'm not saying this will be the best OLB coming out of this draft or that the Patriots should draft him. He's definitely a project and has a lot of similarities to Shawn Crable, who was not ready to be on the active roster last season. Still, I see a lot of things with Johnson's upside that guys like Ayers, English, Brown and the USC kids simply do not possess. I'm not worried about having someone show a 6-7, 265 lb monster how to be stout in rush defense. I am far more worried about those other fire hydrants being able to back peddle into coverage without blowing the scheme.

Anyway, just my 200 cents.

Nice post. You make a lot of good points.

I didn't comment on Johnson's motor or coverage ability in my post earlier in this thread, because they don't overly concern me. While he was somewhat inconsistent I have repeatedly heard that he has a great motor, and he showed pretty good coverage ability and ability to play in space for a guy his size. There's no doubt he is an unreal athlete. The issue that really does concern me is his play against the run and ability to set the edge. For instance, Nolan Nawrocki from Pro Football Weekly quoted this yesterday from an anomymous NFL scout about Johnson: “(Georgia Tech DE) Michael Johnson is almost nonexistent against the run. He was never a full-time player until his senior year. He’d be a rotational, third-down, situational pass rusher for us. You can’t consider taking guys like that until the third round; we couldn’t, anyway. Someone will take him sooner.” NFL Draft - NFL draft preview and analysis from Pro Football Weekly That kind of talk scares me.

For the record, I think that the 3 guys with the greatest upside at 3-4 OLB are Connor Barwin, Aaron Maybin, and Michael Johnson. They all have a combination height, frame, wingspan, burst, athleticism and coverage ability which I don't see in Everette Brown, Brian Orapko, Brian Cushing, Clay Matthews, Robert Ayers (who I like more inside at SILB), Clint Sintim or Larry English. But all 3 have significant risk and development issues. Johnson and Maybin have definite issues in terms of playing the run and holding the edge right now. Barwin and Maybin are raw. Maybin needs a lot of physical development. In 2 years these 3 guys could all be exceptional 3-4 ends, or none of them could pan out. I like Barwin the best, as I have clearly documented. Maybin is likely to be gone before I would take him. But I would be willing to gamble on Johnson any time from 47 on if BB thought he was worth the risk.

BlackFrancis · Apr 16, 2009

Box_O_Rocks said:
He did look good in coverage, which earned him points with me, but no better than my favorite did when I watched him play. BB's 3-4 is predicated on stopping the run - stop the run and you make the other team one dimensional. If teams can run against Johnson, then it's Beisel in the run game all over again - a weak spot to be exploited. I agree with your coverage point, but as long as BB wants to play run first, I can't see him risking a Day One pick on Johnson - it's not like Johnson didn't have four seasons at GT to better himself there.

The only tangible counter point I have against your rush defense point is that Georgia game at the end of last season. Johnson was stacking and shedding everybody they threw at him. The obvious counterpoint is pointing out that the Dog's tackles weren't exactly the most experienced linemen in the SEC last season but still, Moreno wasn't exactly hampered by their blocking.

I agree with you about the necessity of an OLB to be able to not just hold his edge but also make plays after the OL/TE engage them. I guess I'm just unconvinced that a dude that large, strong and quick won't be able to make plays in the running game as a LB. It won't be the same thing he was doing at Georgia Tech, where he'd have to seal the edge and watch his midget linebackers get crushed. With the Patriots front seven, he'd have some talented support around him. And before anyone says it - yes, I know many folks considered Morgan the best defender on the Yellowjackets last season.

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 16, 2009

BlackFrancis said:
The only tangible counter point I have against your rush defense point is that Georgia game at the end of last season. Johnson was stacking and shedding everybody they threw at him. The obvious counterpoint is pointing out that the Dog's tackles weren't exactly the most experienced linemen in the SEC last season but still, Moreno wasn't exactly hampered by their blocking.

I agree with you about the necessity of an OLB to be able to not just hold his edge but also make plays after the OL/TE engage them. I guess I'm just unconvinced that a dude that large, strong and quick won't be able to make plays in the running game as a LB. It won't be the same thing he was doing at Georgia Tech, where he'd have to seal the edge and watch his midget linebackers get crushed. With the Patriots front seven, he'd have some talented support around him. And before anyone says it - yes, I know many folks considered Morgan the best defender on the Yellowjackets last season.

Unfortunately, the Georgia game is an example of why he gets the "inconsistent" label. He got up and had a big game against the in-state rival, then had so many other games where he was washed out. A lot to like about the kid, but too many times you shake your head and say nope, "it" isn't there.

BlackFrancis · Apr 17, 2009

Box_O_Rocks said:
Unfortunately, the Georgia game is an example of why he gets the "inconsistent" label. He got up and had a big game against the in-state rival, then had so many other games where he was washed out. A lot to like about the kid, but too many times you shake your head and say nope, "it" isn't there.

I just cannot argue with that at all. He definitely didn't get "it" in college. Hell, everybody thought he was going to be an unholy terror senior, finally starting and not sharing the spotlight with anybody on that line. When you look at his final numbers, it really looks like an abject failure. And that is one serious concern, to the point where you'd just have to hesitate and think about it if he were available in the low-mid 2nd. As a late second/early third, he's a no brainer, though.

Still, as much as I agree with your argument, it would be a hell of a decision if the Patriots miss on the major targets at #23 and #34 and Johnson and Sintim are still on the board. Sintim is the safer pick but oh man, Johnson's upside is unreal.

Of course, the way these things work, Belichick will have selected a RB and a tight end by then, driving me yet again to the late April bottle.

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 17, 2009

BlackFrancis said:
I just cannot argue with that at all. He definitely didn't get "it" in college. Hell, everybody thought he was going to be an unholy terror senior, finally starting and not sharing the spotlight with anybody on that line. When you look at his final numbers, it really looks like an abject failure. And that is one serious concern, to the point where you'd just have to hesitate and think about it if he were available in the low-mid 2nd. As a late second/early third, he's a no brainer, though.

Still, as much as I agree with your argument, it would be a hell of a decision if the Patriots miss on the major targets at #23 and #34 and Johnson and Sintim are still on the board. Sintim is the safer pick but oh man, Johnson's upside is unreal.

Of course, the way these things work, Belichick will have selected a RB and a tight end by then, driving me yet again to the late April bottle.

:eat2:

.......

TriplecHamp · Apr 17, 2009

Box_O_Rocks said:
:eat2:

.......

Where do you get these from?lol

Box_O_Rocks · Apr 17, 2009

TriplecHamp said:
Where do you get these from?lol

Quote a post, click on the [More] link below the displayed smilies - if you have popups disabled you may need to accept a popup - and you'll find a little window with all Ian's smilies.

Is Michael Johnson an underrated DE in this draft?

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