My knock on Maroney and the offense

AndyJohnson said:

Read much?
What does ANYTHING you are posting have to do with what I am talking about?
I am talking about THE COACHING STAFF CRITIQUING PLAYERS TO THE MEDIA. THE COACHING STAFF SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT PLAYERS TO REPORTERS. You are talking about things that have to do with the media and nothing to do with what I am talking about.
I could care less whether Curran made up a story, whether he got the information from Brady himself, BB, BBs secretary, the trainer, his dog, or Billy Sullivans ghost. It has absolutely, completely nothing to do with what I am talking about. PLEASE STOP MY HEADACHE BY STICKING TO THE POINT. I certainly won't base my opinion on what you think Curran should be smart enough to know better than.

The point here is that BB runs the show, and BBs PHILOSOPHY dictates the way the employees who work for him act. It is a PHILOSOPHY to criticize players directly, or to do so in the media. Bill Parcells likes to motivate by making critical comments in press conferences. Other coaches, I'm sure plant stories. Everything I have seen is that BBs style is to handle issues directly with players and go out of his way to avoid making them public. Somehow you think that adds up to a conspiracy theory, but I would suggest your arduous efforts to stretch to anything media related to prove a point that isnt there is the conspiratorial effort.

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And if you don't think coaches don't say things negative at times about players to reporters you are kidding yourself. If people within the team will and HAVE leaked things like who they are going to draft in the first round, it is pretty certain they have told reporters other things like what they are thinking about players. Even Belichick's coaching staff consists of humans and not Terminator andriods.

This is a stupid argument. You can go on believing that Belichick is some Puppet Master and his staff are decendants of the Hitler Youth or Stepford Coaches who don't have an original thought in their head unless Belichick puts it there.

This is way off topic and getting tiresome. You seem to just want to twist this argument because I suggested that Belichick don't control what his coaches do 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Here's a suggestion for your headache. Stop being a selfrighteous arse and maybe it will clear up. Something I think you may be incapable of. Sorry, but when I "stick to the topic" you just spin everything to fit your own warped agenda. Why should I even bother because you don't want to debate a topic. You just have an overinflated sense of self-worth and expect your opinion to be the only one that is right. Maybe it is your big head that is giving you a headache.

Rob0729 said:

And if you don't think coaches don't say things negative at times about players to reporters you are kidding yourself. If people within the team will and HAVE leaked things like who they are going to draft in the first round, it is pretty certain they have told reporters other things like what they are thinking about players. Even Belichick's coaching staff consists of humans and not Terminator andriods.

This is a stupid argument. You can go on believing that Belichick is some Puppet Master and his staff are decendants of the Hitler Youth or Stepford Coaches who don't have an original thought in their head unless Belichick puts it there.

This is way off topic and getting tiresome. You seem to just want to twist this argument because I suggested that Belichick don't control what his coaches do 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Here's a suggestion for your headache. Stop being a selfrighteous arse and maybe it will clear up. Something I think you may be incapable of. Sorry, but when I "stick to the topic" you just spin everything to fit your own warped agenda. Why should I even bother because you don't want to debate a topic. You just have an overinflated sense of self-worth and expect your opinion to be the only one that is right. Maybe it is your big head that is giving you a headache.

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You can throw all the insults you want, but that doesnt change anything.

How is it that when 2 people disagree and stand firm one accuses the other of thinking they are the only one who can be right? Are not both people doing the same thing?

This is my original post to you that started the exchange:

Its ignorant to think that the way this organization is run that the media would be privy to the coaching staff's opinion and assessment of any player.



That is the only point I have been discussing. You continue to bring in draft predictions, whether there are leaks in the secretarial pool, or other things that are not pertinent to this point.
This IS THE POINT because the topic was that Maroney failed to do what the coaches directed him to, with the 'proof' being the media says so.


I FIRMLY believe that none of the coaches who work for BB would have that discussion with a member of the media. In fact I find it silly to even think they would. This organization has gone out of their way to not disburse any information that could give a competitive disadvantage to the team out to the media. It is a cornerstone principal.
You keep digressing from that point.

Just answer the question.
Do you believe that if Laurence Maroney decided that he wasn't going to do what the coaches told him to do that the coaches of the New England Patriots would tell that to a reporter? Keeping in mind that BB has said nothing but good things to the media.
Based on everything you have seen in 9 years of the BB Administration, do you think it is reasonable to assume that coaches are talking to reporters about developmental, disciplainary, coaching and teaching issues with individual players?

Rob0729 said:

And if you don't think coaches don't say things negative at times about players to reporters you are kidding yourself. If people within the team will and HAVE leaked things like who they are going to draft in the first round, it is pretty certain they have told reporters other things like what they are thinking about players. Even Belichick's coaching staff consists of humans and not Terminator andriods.

This is a stupid argument. You can go on believing that Belichick is some Puppet Master and his staff are decendants of the Hitler Youth or Stepford Coaches who don't have an original thought in their head unless Belichick puts it there.

This is way off topic and getting tiresome. You seem to just want to twist this argument because I suggested that Belichick don't control what his coaches do 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Here's a suggestion for your headache. Stop being a selfrighteous arse and maybe it will clear up. Something I think you may be incapable of. Sorry, but when I "stick to the topic" you just spin everything to fit your own warped agenda. Why should I even bother because you don't want to debate a topic. You just have an overinflated sense of self-worth and expect your opinion to be the only one that is right. Maybe it is your big head that is giving you a headache.

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By the way, you've ignored one important little fact in your musings.
BB does not allow assistant coaches to speak to the media.
Are you suggesting they don't follow that rule, and he looks the other way? I suppose thats about the only way that what I am suggesting would not happen actually did.

Rob0729 said:

And if you don't think coaches don't say things negative at times about players to reporters you are kidding yourself. If people within the team will and HAVE leaked things like who they are going to draft in the first round, it is pretty certain they have told reporters other things like what they are thinking about players. Even Belichick's coaching staff consists of humans and not Terminator andriods.

This is a stupid argument. You can go on believing that Belichick is some Puppet Master and his staff are decendants of the Hitler Youth or Stepford Coaches who don't have an original thought in their head unless Belichick puts it there.

This is way off topic and getting tiresome. You seem to just want to twist this argument because I suggested that Belichick don't control what his coaches do 24 hours a day 7 days a week.

Here's a suggestion for your headache. Stop being a selfrighteous arse and maybe it will clear up. Something I think you may be incapable of. Sorry, but when I "stick to the topic" you just spin everything to fit your own warped agenda. Why should I even bother because you don't want to debate a topic. You just have an overinflated sense of self-worth and expect your opinion to be the only one that is right. Maybe it is your big head that is giving you a headache.

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I am going to respond to your last paragraph.
I believe that I am correct. You have done nothing to sway my opinion. You are suggesting that it would somehow be better for me to change my opinion just because you disagree with it? So now you resort to insulting me and calling me names. Do you feel better now?
Did calling me an 'arse' help you feel better? Did deflecting the discussion by categorizing me as 'selfrighteous' having an 'overinflated sense of selfworth' (i think we have a bigger problem of you define sense of self worth by message board disagreements) that I have a 'big head' or my 'agenda is warped' help you feel better?
Because those things had nothing to do with the discussion and are not welcome on this board. If you want to debate a point, do so. If you want to ATTACK THE PERSON who has a different viewpoint, find somewhere else to do it.
We have gone back and forth because you have continued to respond to a different topic that the one I am interested in discussing, and the point that I feel is at issue.
That is frustrating. It is for me and I am sure it is for you.
I would suggest that when you get frustrated your go back and read what the other person is actually saying, instead of trying to come up with ways to beat down, offend or insult them, because that may make you feel better, but it doesn't really do anything to progress your argument when you attack the person who differs with your opinion.

If you want to discuss a topic, that is fine. Say what you think and I will say what I do. But it you feel that the way to 'beat me' in the argument is to attack me personally rather than make strong points to support your side and/or refute mine, then you should find someone else to talk at.

supafly said:

Benjarvus Green-Ellis ran for 74 rushes totaling 275 yards, and 5 TD's--for an average carry of 3.7 yards, not the measly 2.8 that you stated

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You do understand that 3.7 ypc sucks, right?

E Belichick Unum said:

Maroney is a talented guy who doesn't follow the coaching staff's directions. How many times have we heard that the staff wants him to hit the hole, but he keeps trying to hit a homerun? The team anouncers tell us that, the national TV guys tell us that, the writers who cover the team tells us that.

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Are these the same guys that told us Cassel would be cut? That Favre would bring the Jets to the Superbowl? That pronounced the Patriots season over when Brady went down?

Listen to the TV announcers all you want, but yeah, they pull this stuff out of their collective butts.

AndyJohnson said:

I am going to respond to your last paragraph.
I believe that I am correct. You have done nothing to sway my opinion. You are suggesting that it would somehow be better for me to change my opinion just because you disagree with it? So now you resort to insulting me and calling me names. Do you feel better now?
Did calling me an 'arse' help you feel better? Did deflecting the discussion by categorizing me as 'selfrighteous' having an 'overinflated sense of selfworth' (i think we have a bigger problem of you define sense of self worth by message board disagreements) that I have a 'big head' or my 'agenda is warped' help you feel better?
Because those things had nothing to do with the discussion and are not welcome on this board. If you want to debate a point, do so. If you want to ATTACK THE PERSON who has a different viewpoint, find somewhere else to do it.
We have gone back and forth because you have continued to respond to a different topic that the one I am interested in discussing, and the point that I feel is at issue.
That is frustrating. It is for me and I am sure it is for you.
I would suggest that when you get frustrated your go back and read what the other person is actually saying, instead of trying to come up with ways to beat down, offend or insult them, because that may make you feel better, but it doesn't really do anything to progress your argument when you attack the person who differs with your opinion.

If you want to discuss a topic, that is fine. Say what you think and I will say what I do. But it you feel that the way to 'beat me' in the argument is to attack me personally rather than make strong points to support your side and/or refute mine, then you should find someone else to talk at.

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I'd beat you in an debate except you are not willing to have a debate. You are far too pompous, dismissive, and self-righteous to have a debate. You ask for examples where a coach may have leaked their opinions about a player off the record to the media and then dismiss my example as unsubstatiated or reduce them to just the reporter's opinions or guess as if you know something that everyone else doesn't. When I counter, you claim I am avoiding your questions. That is pompous, dismissive, and self-righteous.

I have no problems debating people on this board who can intelligently debate a topic without bringing their moral superioty to the argument. Perhaps that is beyond your grasp. It seems pretty obvious since you are conducting two similiar battles in this same thread. I feel sorry for you that you are incapable of raising your level of discussion to something more productive. It must suck for you.

AndyJohnson said:

By the way, you've ignored one important little fact in your musings.
BB does not allow assistant coaches to speak to the media.
Are you suggesting they don't follow that rule, and he looks the other way? I suppose thats about the only way that what I am suggesting would not happen actually did.

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Ummmm.... Not forgetting it. I just know like most of your arguments, it isn't true. Why bother argue a point you know nothing about. Belichick cannot bar his assistants from talking to the media. League rules mandate that he must allow his assistants available to the media. McDaniels and Pees spoke regularly with the press last year.

Besides, even when he could limit his assistants from talking to the media, it was in a form press conference setting. Charlie Weiss and Romeo Crennel was never barred from actually acknowledging reporters ever existed. They were just never allowed to speak on the record.

Why not understand what you are talking about before you actually take your self-righteous stance of self-importance?

Rob0729 said:

Ummmm.... Not forgetting it. I just know like most of your arguments, it isn't true. Why bother argue a point you know nothing about. Belichick cannot bar his assistants from talking to the media. League rules mandate that he must allow his assistants available to the media. McDaniels and Pees spoke regularly with the press last year.

Besides, even when he could limit his assistants from talking to the media, it was in a form press conference setting. Charlie Weiss and Romeo Crennel was never barred from actually acknowledging reporters ever existed. They were just never allowed to speak on the record.

Why not understand what you are talking about before you actually take your self-righteous stance of self-importance?

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I would suggest that you do some research. Assistants are not allowed to speak to the media, and coordinators do on a scheduled limited basis.
It would appear that your argument is now that they violate that rule of BBs in order to speak to reporters in secret? Why would they do that?

Rob0729 said:

Michael Smith stating that the coaching staff felt Brady was ahead of schedule (also reported by Charlie Casserly, Shira Springer, and others).

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It was widely reproted in the media that Brady was behind schedule. Felger yapped on this for a long time after Brady had the infection issues, then Curran reported the same thing.

Charlie Casserly reports much about the Pats but is wrong way more often than he is right.

I just don't see that BB gives out inside info to anyone unless he wants that info leaked, in which case the info is likely to be misdirection and therefore untrue.

Rob0729 said:

I'd beat you in an debate except you are not willing to have a debate. You are far too pompous, dismissive, and self-righteous to have a debate. You ask for examples where a coach may have leaked their opinions about a player off the record to the media and then dismiss my example as unsubstatiated or reduce them to just the reporter's opinions or guess as if you know something that everyone else doesn't. When I counter, you claim I am avoiding your questions. That is pompous, dismissive, and self-righteous.

I have no problems debating people on this board who can intelligently debate a topic without bringing their moral superioty to the argument. Perhaps that is beyond your grasp. It seems pretty obvious since you are conducting two similiar battles in this same thread. I feel sorry for you that you are incapable of raising your level of discussion to something more productive. It must suck for you.

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So your response to my telling you that insults are not welcome is to come up with more insults.
Once again, when all you can muster is a personal insult of the person who disgrees with you, you have lost the debate already.

You did not give any examples of coaches giving information about players to the media.
I have said this numerous times. A reporter guessing correctly at who would be drafted does not count.
A rumor that Doug Gabriel didnt respond well to being told not to fumble or Chad Jackson is immature is again, nothing close to proof.
PROOF would be an example where it can be VERIFIED that a coach communicated an opinion about a player to the media.
I am quite confident that you can find examples of the media having an opinion. I am getting equally confident that either do not know how to prove that it eminated from a coach, or that it never did.

But lets try this again:

1) I asked you before. Do you really believe that if a player on the Patriots were not follwing direction, that a coach would go and tell a reporter?
2) I am asing once again for proof. That does not mean find an instance where something happened, and although there is no evidence to suggest it, it could have come from a coach.
that argument does not hold up.
I can equally say that the Gabriel story came from Gabriel himself, and that the Jackson story came from the reporter reading you post it on patsfans.com and it is equally as strong proof.

Let me undertand again. You think that Maroney refuses to do what he is told, BB praises him, they keep putting him on the field, and the solution the team comes up with is to tell a reporter than he doesn't follow direction? HOw can that even seem reasonable to you?

If you chose to respond, I will expect that you respond with an argument about the facts and the topic and STOP IMMEDIATELY FROM PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME. I don't know who you think you are but you will not be allowed to continue to insult, attack demean and slur me. It ends NOW.

supafly said:

DW-
Yesterday your main idea was to trade Maroney for Adrian Wilson, one of the top 3 safeties in the game. Your point was that he felt slighted due to AZ focusing current issues on Dansby (major franchise tag cap hit) and Boldin. (wants new contract or trade) You also claimed that the crazy AZ fanbase was not wanting Adrian Wilson around, for whatever reason.

Let's just say that I think your trade scenarios are getting a little far fetched.

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I did not say they did not want him around Cousin. Please do not misinterpret me. The fans would like to see the Cards get something for him as Graves is dragging his feet on the other two (Dansby and Bolden) and Wilson is third on the totem pole. No, Wilson is loved and respected there as much as Dawkins was in Philly. If he is taking two years to get the other two done and word is that the Dansby negotiation is now going backwards, a new contract for Wilson appears to be deep on the waiting list. He is in his final year. His CAP cost will cost less than Peppers for sure.

I said that I propose this scenario. I can't say if the Cards would do it. It takes two to tango. I said it was definitely feasible and not at all as you say "far fetched" if the trade is right IMO. My reasoning was that they need an RB and a TE and we have both that could be moveable parts for the right trade. Far fetched? no. Possible?...who knows. Realistic? ...yes. It's like they try to put words in my mouth like trading Slater for a number one pick, or trading Ware for Yates.

The Cards have a pretty decent young SS backup in the wings. The negotiations are taking a toll on the team. The needs are there. They might consider our two with a realistic pick...Cousin would you not pull the trigger if you are the Pats?

All right...think about it in these terms. Wilson for Maroney, Thomas and a pick (2nd?). Look at this on paper. A trade is like a murder investigation. You have to establish motive. I see enough motive on each side. In a perfect world Maroney would be a 1,500 yard runner, Thomas could catch 50-60 balls and Wilson would have a new contract and be 26 instead of 29 and this would not be an idea some knuckelhead presents for .....opinion!. Far fetched? I doubt it. A trade imminent? I am not on the management of either team. It is just a very realistic thought that could help two teams.
DW Toys

DW-
adding D.Thomas to the trade along with Maroney and a second rounder looks better than what you said yesterday, (no Thomas) but without Adrian Wilson, the Cards never sniff the Super Bowl. Everyone has their opinions on their feasible trade options, but I think the Cards could certainly do better than 2 players who haven't proven too much for A.Wilson. They still have a whole yr, the possibility of the uncapped CBA, and even a possibility of a franchise tag for Wilson. He is an elite safety, who has at least another 5-6 yrs left, in other words--he is a VITAL part of their defense.

Saying just because they aren't dealing with him right now, makes about as much sense as saying we don't want Wilfork or Seymour because we are not dealing with them now. They have another yr, and he is not going anywhere. I think you are greatly underrating the man's skills.

Like I said yesterday, they are trying to avoid the big cap hit implied by Dansby's 2nd yr of being under the tag--that's why their dealing first with Dansby, he is a much more immediate need for negotiations right now. And Boldin is just throwing a wrench in things by complaining, demanding a trade, etc--so he takes 2nd priority. When the time is right, they'll make an incredible offer to keep A.Wilson, and if they did decide to trade him, they'll surely want at least a #1 and #3, if not for a MAJOR player. He is the 3rd most important player on the team, and surely #1 on defense. IMO--the trade scenario is still crazy, but post a thread on it, and see what everyone else tells you, if you don't believe me.

We're all entitled to our crazy trade scenarios, your opinion matters to me, like everyone else here. IMO, A.Wilson is a perennial pro bowler, and they'd laugh at a trade for Maroney, and David Thomas. The unproven second rounder doesn't make it much better. And remember, you mentioned nothing of adding Thomas yesterday, your scenario was Maroney and a second rounder for AZ's Adrian Wilson. Belichick would've thought he died and went to trade heaven under that scenario. Put a thread up, and see what others have to say. My guess is that you'll have similar responses

brady2brown said:

You do understand that 3.7 ypc sucks, right?

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Dude, we weren't debating whether or not 3.7 YPC sucks. (it doesn't anyway)

I pointed out that it was 3.7, not 2.8--it is a MAJOR difference.

He posted the wrong stat, admitted to it, and moved on. That's what someone does when someone starts a thread pointing out a VERY wrong stat.

We discussed it, moved on, whatever--no big deal.

It had absolutely nothing to do with you. You don't even understand what we were talking about. What were you going to do, argue with whomever pointed out the correction? (yes, I guess you were)

If you don't think there's a difference between 3.7 YPC, which is almost 4 yards a gain, and 2.8--which is incredibly low, then you have a lot more problems than interfering with a discussion. And FWIW--Any RB who has almost a 4 yard average for carry doesn't suck anyway, so there's really no point to anything you said anyway. What's the league average? Yeah, that's what I thought.

FWIW--Hall of famer Marcus Allen has a 4.0 YPC, so I guess he sucked too then. Hall of Famer, John Riggins had a 3.9 YPC , I know he sucked. Potential Hall of Famer Jerome Bettis had a 3.9 YPC, he sucked too--they all suck according to your theory

AndyJohnson said:

So your response to my telling you that insults are not welcome is to come up with more insults.
Once again, when all you can muster is a personal insult of the person who disgrees with you, you have lost the debate already.

You did not give any examples of coaches giving information about players to the media.
I have said this numerous times. A reporter guessing correctly at who would be drafted does not count.
A rumor that Doug Gabriel didnt respond well to being told not to fumble or Chad Jackson is immature is again, nothing close to proof.
PROOF would be an example where it can be VERIFIED that a coach communicated an opinion about a player to the media.
I am quite confident that you can find examples of the media having an opinion. I am getting equally confident that either do not know how to prove that it eminated from a coach, or that it never did.

But lets try this again:

1) I asked you before. Do you really believe that if a player on the Patriots were not follwing direction, that a coach would go and tell a reporter?
2) I am asing once again for proof. That does not mean find an instance where something happened, and although there is no evidence to suggest it, it could have come from a coach.
that argument does not hold up.
I can equally say that the Gabriel story came from Gabriel himself, and that the Jackson story came from the reporter reading you post it on patsfans.com and it is equally as strong proof.

Let me undertand again. You think that Maroney refuses to do what he is told, BB praises him, they keep putting him on the field, and the solution the team comes up with is to tell a reporter than he doesn't follow direction? HOw can that even seem reasonable to you?

If you chose to respond, I will expect that you respond with an argument about the facts and the topic and STOP IMMEDIATELY FROM PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME. I don't know who you think you are but you will not be allowed to continue to insult, attack demean and slur me. It ends NOW.

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Not that its any of my business, but being that i was forced to read this dumb argument, im going to comment.

I have to agree with Andy. Rob0 has only listed his opinions, and the opinions of reporters. He hasnt actually shown any proof that any of those comments came from a coach, or any other person in the organization. Im not saying that info couldnt, and hasnt been leaked in the past. Im merely saying there is NO proof that it has. I believe Andy was simply saying "show me the proof", which so far has not happened. Sorry rob0. OK, you two can continue

nashvillepatsfan said:

Not that its any of my business, but being that i was forced to read this dumb argument, im going to comment.

I have to agree with Andy. Rob0 has only listed his opinions, and the opinions of reporters. He hasnt actually shown any proof that any of those comments came from a coach, or any other person in the organization. Im not saying that info couldnt, and hasnt been leaked in the past. Im merely saying there is NO proof that it has. I believe Andy was simply saying "show me the proof", which so far has not happened. Sorry rob0. OK, you two can continue

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Again, how Felger saying his SOURCES said the Pats are going to draft Warren. How do you prove who an unnamed source is? Did Woodword and Bernstein make up Deep Throat because it was their opinion that Nixon was involved in the Watergate break in until he actually come forward 30 years later? Did they win the Pulitzer for that story because the voters of the award thought it was a good work of fiction? So if Adam Schefter reports a story and he says "sources within the Patriots (or fill in the team) organization told me" it really means Schefter is giving his own opinion and attributing it to sources?

Reporters get information from people who are close to a certain situation all the time and the source does not want their name on the record. Say it was Mangini who told Felger the Pats wanted to draft Warren, do you really think Mangini would have wanted the entire world to know that he is giving away draft secrets? Do you think Felger would get scoops within the Patriots organization from his other sources if he out his source?

You can guess based on the information where it comes from. It may not be the coaching staff. It be from someone working in the video department who sat in the meeting or someone in the front office, but the examples I gave did come from the Patriots. Any credible journalist would not give their opinions about a situation and attribute them to unnamed sources. Not only is it shady journalism, it is a firable offense. And many journalist have been fired for doing so (Mike Barnacle).

If I am wrong because I can't proof an unnamed source and stories from unnamed sources aren't real and just opinions by writers, every single news outlet from CNN to the Globe to Sports Illustrated are just made up opinions by the people who run and not news.

I feel that I have shown proof because I provide stories from unnamed sources within the Patriots organization which ended up coming true. Since the original comment that Andy is disputing is from this post:

There has been talk by the media that the Pats coaching staff felt that way, but they have never said publically or acknowledged that they said privately that they felt Maroney should try to hit the holes harder and not try to hit a homerun. The thing is that we do not know if Belichick and McDaniels felt that or the particular source (who may or may not been in a position to make that assessment) or the person in the media taking his own personal opinions and applying it to information that may or may not have been given to him/her which is different than what is being portrayed (Like I have a feeling Curran did with his Brady story making it sound worse than it was using the worst case scenario becuse he thought he had a scoop).

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I have reached the burden of proof to show that media to report such stories and they ultimately come true.

Umm that makes no sense. If Maroney had great vision and were hitting the hole quickly, he'd actualy get to and through the hole. I think poor vision is the reason he's not finding the hole and running into his linemen instead. Another factor here might be lack of patience. Everyone knows that Maroney has speed, but if he can't utilize it properly, he's not going to be a useful pro RB.

supafly said:

FWIW--Hall of famer Marcus Allen has a 4.0 YPC, so I guess he sucked too then. Hall of Famer, John Riggins had a 3.9 YPC , I know he sucked. Potential Hall of Famer Jerome Bettis had a 3.9 YPC, he sucked too--they all suck according to your theory

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Thank you for pointing out that YPC is not the end and total measure of a RB. I know alot of Maroney defenders think YPC is the only stat that matters but it hardly tells the whole story of how good a RB is, it's just one indicator.

VJCPatriot said:

Thank you for pointing out that YPC is not the end and total measure of a RB. I know alot of Maroney defenders think YPC is the only stat that matters but it hardly tells the whole story of how good a RB is, it's just one indicator.

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Feel free to ignore the DVOA and success rate data that has been presented.

If you have any evidence that Maroney is as bad, when healthy, as you suggest, I'd love to see it.

Rob0729 said:

Again, how Felger saying his SOURCES said the Pats are going to draft Warren. How do you prove who an unnamed source is? Did Woodword and Bernstein make up Deep Throat because it was their opinion that Nixon was involved in the Watergate break in until he actually come forward 30 years later? Did they win the Pulitzer for that story because the voters of the award thought it was a good work of fiction? So if Adam Schefter reports a story and he says "sources within the Patriots (or fill in the team) organization told me" it really means Schefter is giving his own opinion and attributing it to sources?

Reporters get information from people who are close to a certain situation all the time and the source does not want their name on the record. Say it was Mangini who told Felger the Pats wanted to draft Warren, do you really think Mangini would have wanted the entire world to know that he is giving away draft secrets? Do you think Felger would get scoops within the Patriots organization from his other sources if he out his source?

You can guess based on the information where it comes from. It may not be the coaching staff. It be from someone working in the video department who sat in the meeting or someone in the front office, but the examples I gave did come from the Patriots. Any credible journalist would not give their opinions about a situation and attribute them to unnamed sources. Not only is it shady journalism, it is a firable offense. And many journalist have been fired for doing so (Mike Barnacle).

If I am wrong because I can't proof an unnamed source and stories from unnamed sources aren't real and just opinions by writers, every single news outlet from CNN to the Globe to Sports Illustrated are just made up opinions by the people who run and not news.

I feel that I have shown proof because I provide stories from unnamed sources within the Patriots organization which ended up coming true. Since the original comment that Andy is disputing is from this post:



I have reached the burden of proof to show that media to report such stories and they ultimately come true.

Click to expand...

I cant just let this go unanswered.
The issue is COACHES telling the media personal, internal opinions of players.

Here is what you have shown:
-When reporters ask people in the organization about prospective draft picks, they discuss them. That leads the media to SOMETIMES guess correctly. To achieve the burden of proof you think you have, there would need to be a pattern. At this point we only know that Felger guessed right. I am absolutely certain that they discussed numerous players, and that was his guess. They didnt even know who would be available when the pick came up.
-Your lynchpin of your argument seems to be that a reporter could never do anything wrong, why would they, they could be fired. That flies in the face of the coaches doing something that would get them fired, namely speaking to reporters (which they are not allowed to do) AND divulging secret information. What possible motiviation could a coach have in telling Micheal Felger who they were going to draft?
We all know Felgers history, how is it a stretch that he wanted to make himself sound more important so he claimed to have a source? That 'source' could well have been BB discussing potential draft picks in a pc and Felger gleaned that he said good things about Warren.

Burden of proof? You have missed on every end:
First, your only 'proof' in any case is uncorraborated. (To meet a burden of proof you need corroboration)
Second, what you are trying to 'prove' would not even answr the question because it is totally unrelated. Showing that some reporter at some point got some type of info from some person employed by the Pats is not meeting the burden of proof that a coach discussed a players actions and response to coaching with the media. In fact it isnt even close.
Finally, your ace in the hole is that what the reporter says must be true, the coach must have done what would get him fired, becuase the reporter would be doing what would get him fired if he didn't. How does an event that if true one person gets fired and if not the other gets fired prove that one or the other happened?

Rob0729 said:

Again, how Felger saying his SOURCES said the Pats are going to draft Warren. How do you prove who an unnamed source is? Did Woodword and Bernstein make up Deep Throat because it was their opinion that Nixon was involved in the Watergate break in until he actually come forward 30 years later? Did they win the Pulitzer for that story because the voters of the award thought it was a good work of fiction? So if Adam Schefter reports a story and he says "sources within the Patriots (or fill in the team) organization told me" it really means Schefter is giving his own opinion and attributing it to sources?

Reporters get information from people who are close to a certain situation all the time and the source does not want their name on the record. Say it was Mangini who told Felger the Pats wanted to draft Warren, do you really think Mangini would have wanted the entire world to know that he is giving away draft secrets? Do you think Felger would get scoops within the Patriots organization from his other sources if he out his source?

You can guess based on the information where it comes from. It may not be the coaching staff. It be from someone working in the video department who sat in the meeting or someone in the front office, but the examples I gave did come from the Patriots. Any credible journalist would not give their opinions about a situation and attribute them to unnamed sources. Not only is it shady journalism, it is a firable offense. And many journalist have been fired for doing so (Mike Barnacle).

If I am wrong because I can't proof an unnamed source and stories from unnamed sources aren't real and just opinions by writers, every single news outlet from CNN to the Globe to Sports Illustrated are just made up opinions by the people who run and not news.

I feel that I have shown proof because I provide stories from unnamed sources within the Patriots organization which ended up coming true. Since the original comment that Andy is disputing is from this post:



I have reached the burden of proof to show that media to report such stories and they ultimately come true.

Click to expand...

By the way, you have accused me of believing I am the only one who could be right, and then when someone disagreed with you don't listen to him either and ramble on once again about something that isn't the topic.

ONE MORE TIME: EVERYONE ACCEPTS THAT SOME PEOPLE IN THE FO SPEAK TO THE MEDIA. EVERYONE ACCEPTS THE MEDIA WILL CONCLUDE INFO FROM THAT. NO ONE HAS EVEN SAID IT IS WRONG.
BUT YOU ARE ARGUING THAT A COACH TALKED TO A REPORTER ABOUT THE STATUS, COACHABILITY AND RESPONSIVENESS TO DIRECTION OF A PLAYER.
The difference is equivalent to the secretary at a large company telling her friends that the bosses seem nervous vs the ceo telling his friends to dump all of their stock becuase the company is going under.