Upgrading the secondary

eom · Mar 11, 2009

you could sign a wr or de, but they'd have to be cheap, and it won't be anybody who will be a stand out in 2010, so I agree w/your draft analysis.
what order, however, I have no idea, and it probably mostly comes down to who bb likes in the draft, and where they can be had.
you don't have to get everybody in the first round, and whoever we draft I doubt they'll all be here in 2010 --- there's another draft next year, and uncapped(?) free agency.

bradmahn · Mar 11, 2009

The secondary in 2003 was crazy good.

2004 had two excellent safeties and two average at best cornerbacks. Law was done after the Pitt fiasco and Poole struggled with injuries from week one (if my memory isn't failing me). This collection of cornerback talent is far, far deeper and has more than enough potential to outperform that group.

Leigh Bodden and Shawn Springs have produced seasons with 6+ INTs (although Springs's came in 1998, in 2004 he had 5), and Meriweather had four last season, while Hobbs has twice had 3. Don't write off this group putting up similar turnover numbers as the 2003 group, although it will depend heavily on how well the pass rush holds up.

mayoclinic · Mar 11, 2009

I would argue that this is the deepest secondary we have ever had. There's obviously room to get better at the top, but I'm confident that will happen over time.

In 2004 Law had foot problems, Poole fell apart, and we were spread thin in at CB. Randall Gay starting at CB as a rookie UFDA in the superbowl was a little scary at the time. While Gay was solid for us, I think that Wheatley and Wilhite have the potential to be the best #3-4 CBs we have ever had, plus Springs is always an option. I think that Hobbs and Bodden are an extremely solid pair of starting CBs. There's no pro-bowl calibre CB like Ty Law in 2003 or Asante Samuel in 2006-2007, but if Bodden returns to his Cleveland form he won't be that far off.

No one at S can match up to Rodney circa 2003-2004, but if Meriweather continues to improve he will be our best safety ever with that exception. Sanders and Springs are tremendous depth at #3-4 safety, and are quite adequate at #2-3. So if we get lucky in the draft and manage to get a stud who can develop alongside Meriweather we will be in the best shape at S in a long time. Much as I like Sean Smith, I think that Louis Delmas is the best pure S in this draft. By 2010 I think that Meriweather and Delmas would be as solid a pair of safeties as we have ever had, approach Harrison and Wilson in 2003-2004.

As was previously mentioned, the secondary in 2003-2004 benefitted from playing behind a terrific front 7, especially 4 extremely solid LBs. We clearly have 2 LBs right now who are as good - and may be better - than the 2003-2004 class in Adalius Thomas and Jerod Mayo. The other 2 spots are still a little shaky. Hopefully we can address those in the draft and see some benefits by 2010.

I don't expect the defense to be as good as 2003. But I am more optimistic about it than at any time since the SB years. BB and the FO have done an amazing re-loading job so far. I can't wait to see how it continues with the draft.

bucky · Mar 11, 2009

mayoclinic said:
I would argue that this is the deepest secondary we have ever had. There's obviously room to get better at the top, but I'm confident that will happen over time.

In 2004 Law had foot problems, Poole fell apart, and we were spread thin in at CB. Randall Gay starting at CB as a rookie UFDA in the superbowl was a little scary at the time. While Gay was solid for us, I think that Wheatley and Wilhite have the potential to be the best #3-4 CBs we have ever had, plus Springs is always an option. I think that Hobbs and Bodden are an extremely solid pair of starting CBs. There's no pro-bowl calibre CB like Ty Law in 2003 or Asante Samuel in 2006-2007, but if Bodden returns to his Cleveland form he won't be that far off.

No one at S can match up to Rodney circa 2003-2004, but if Meriweather continues to improve he will be our best safety ever with that exception. Sanders and Springs are tremendous depth at #3-4 safety, and are quite adequate at #2-3. So if we get lucky in the draft and manage to get a stud who can develop alongside Meriweather we will be in the best shape at S in a long time. Much as I like Sean Smith, I think that Louis Delmas is the best pure S in this draft. By 2010 I think that Meriweather and Delmas would be as solid a pair of safeties as we have ever had, approach Harrison and Wilson in 2003-2004.

As was previously mentioned, the secondary in 2003-2004 benefitted from playing behind a terrific front 7, especially 4 extremely solid LBs. We clearly have 2 LBs right now who are as good - and may be better - than the 2003-2004 class in Adalius Thomas and Jerod Mayo. The other 2 spots are still a little shaky. Hopefully we can address those in the draft and see some benefits by 2010.

I don't expect the defense to be as good as 2003. But I am more optimistic about it than at any time since the SB years. BB and the FO have done an amazing re-loading job so far. I can't wait to see how it continues with the draft.

I'll agree with you on one thing. Secondary depth has not been one of this team's strengths over the years. That's exactly why I'm not feeling comfortable with this group. I think your evaluation of the current players is overly optimistic. For example, you say "if" Bodden returns to his Cleveland form. But there's a good chance that he won't ever be that good again. Springs is a nice addition, but can he play in the slot? If not, than there's no one on this team who can play that position. As for the 2 Ws (Wheatley and Wilhite), sure they have potential. And I hope as much as you do, that it pans out for at least one of them. However, if you compare their rookie seasons to those of Wilson/Samuel, or even Gay/Hobbs, I would argue that there's not that much to get excited about. Wilson, Samuel, Hobbs and even Gay ALL had better rookie seasons that the 2 Ws.

The other thing I wanted to mention is about the 2003/2004 group of LBs. Yes, they were an excellent group - much better and deeper than what's currently on the roster. But the thing that made them so good wasn't that they were such great pass rushers. They were actually great coverage LBs. Phifer and Bruschi were excellent in coverage and Colvin and Vrabel could both hold their own as well.

Last year, and this year as well, it doesn't look like the LBs will be good in coverage. AD is the only good coverage LB on the team right now and that doesn't appear to be changing. Mayo has a lot of potential, but isn't very good yet. Ditto for Guyton. And the reason I bring this up is because it's just another reason to draft more DBs.

AzPatsFan · Mar 11, 2009

mayoclinic said:
I would argue that this is the deepest secondary we have ever had. There's obviously room to get better at the top, but I'm confident that will happen over time.

In 2004 Law had foot problems, Poole fell apart, and we were spread thin in at CB. Randall Gay starting at CB as a rookie UFDA in the superbowl was a little scary at the time. While Gay was solid for us, I think that Wheatley and Wilhite have the potential to be the best #3-4 CBs we have ever had, plus Springs is always an option. I think that Hobbs and Bodden are an extremely solid pair of starting CBs. There's no pro-bowl calibre CB like Ty Law in 2003 or Asante Samuel in 2006-2007, but if Bodden returns to his Cleveland form he won't be that far off.

No one at S can match up to Rodney circa 2003-2004, but if Meriweather continues to improve he will be our best safety ever with that exception. Sanders and Springs are tremendous depth at #3-4 safety, and are quite adequate at #2-3. So if we get lucky in the draft and manage to get a stud who can develop alongside Meriweather we will be in the best shape at S in a long time. Much as I like Sean Smith, I think that Louis Delmas is the best pure S in this draft. By 2010 I think that Meriweather and Delmas would be as solid a pair of safeties as we have ever had, approach Harrison and Wilson in 2003-2004.

As was previously mentioned, the secondary in 2003-2004 benefitted from playing behind a terrific front 7, especially 4 extremely solid LBs. We clearly have 2 LBs right now who are as good - and may be better - than the 2003-2004 class in Adalius Thomas and Jerod Mayo. The other 2 spots are still a little shaky. Hopefully we can address those in the draft and see some benefits by 2010.

I don't expect the defense to be as good as 2003. But I am more optimistic about it than at any time since the SB years. BB and the FO have done an amazing re-loading job so far. I can't wait to see how it continues with the draft.

"The Best Defense is a Good Offense" is as true today as ever. The 2003-2004 Patriot Offenses don't compare to the awesome machine the Patriots now have on Offense. That is Part of today's Patriot Defense.

Look at the Colts. Their Offense was totally their Defense for most of the Decade. Playing 230# DEs, and 215 # LBs, and a 5-7 195 # SS? They still made the Playoffs. Last year's Defense had to play more often and was in the midst of a rebuilding and playing lots of newcomers.

It still finished in the Top Ten and Top Eight for Points Allowed. This edition is better already, and can be as good as anyone's and certainly no worse than Top Five. Compared to the 2003-2004 Defenses this one is much faster and quicker. Add in a The Top Offense in the League, and the JUGGERNAUT is unleashed.

Dragda · Mar 11, 2009

signbabybrady said:
I really like Delmas and I agree one more adition to this secondary would complete the overhaul. Add in J. Taylor and/or a Rookie OLB plus all the other rooks and this would look like one hell of an offseason on paper (I suppose even with out JT).

I'm a Chung believer. He was versatile in college, great hitter, good in coverage. He played on ST as well. A Patriots type player if I've ever seen one. I don't know about his character, but from a talent perspective he could be a top five safety in this league for a long time.

mayoclinic · Mar 11, 2009

Dragda said:
I'm a Chung believer. He was versatile in college, great hitter, good in coverage. He played on ST as well. A Patriots type player if I've ever seen one. I don't know about his character, but from a talent perspective he could be a top five safety in this league for a long time.

I like Chung a lot too (and he seems to be a high character kid as well), I just happen to like Delmas even better. I think Delmas has better coverage ability and more of a hit man mentality. But Chung has a bit more size, is solid overall, and has great intangibles. I would be happy with either.

mayoclinic · Mar 11, 2009

AzPatsFan said:
"The Best Defense is a Good Offense" is as true today as ever. The 2003-2004 Patriot Offenses don't compare to the awesome machine the Patriots now have on Offense. That is Part of today's Patriot Defense.

Look at the Colts. Their Offense was totally their Defense for most of the Decade. Playing 230# DEs, and 215 # LBs, and a 5-7 195 # SS? They still made the Playoffs. Last year's Defense had to play more often and was in the midst of a rebuilding and playing lots of newcomers.

It still finished in the Top Ten and Top Eight for Points Allowed. This edition is better already, and can be as good as anyone's and certainly no worse than Top Five. Compared to the 2003-2004 Defenses this one is much faster and quicker. Add in a The Top Offense in the League, and the JUGGERNAUT is unleashed.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with you.

Obviously there is synergy between defense and offense. Bill Belichick's defense on the NY Giants in 1991 benefitted tremendously from a ball control offense which killed the clock and wore down opposing teams.

The 2004 Patriots offense may have lacked a bit of the explosive firepower which Brady has with Welker and Moss, but it was very balanced with a tremendous power running game. I haven't seen that balanced an offense since then, and the lack of a running game in the clutch clearly hurt us in the 2008 superbowl. I hope that last year's success with RB by committee plus the addition of Taylor will continue the trend back towards a more balanced offense. I see the rebuilding of the defense as a similar trend back towards the glory years. Regardless of the numbers put up by last year's defense, the fact is that our red zone and third down defense was extremely poor, and we could not make the key stops when we needed to - something which was a hallmark of the SB teams. That inability cost us a SB trip in 2006, a SB victory in 2007, and at the very least a playoff trip last year.

Using the Colts as an example does not inspire me with confidence, as we proved over and over that a predominantly offense oriented team was no match for a more balanced team with a superior defense.

eom · Mar 11, 2009

I see that knock on the '07 running game a lot, and the 'pass happy' apellation for that team, but that wasn't by design, it just happened to work out that way due to circumstance.
the superbowl was a trainwreck, but you'd have to admit the run game looked pretty good against sd in the playoffs.

and how many did they put on ir last year?
let's cut the '08 defense a little slack.

mgteich · Mar 11, 2009

The defense needs slack for last year? The offense played without Brady and without running backs. We had to sign Green-Ellis and start him.

eom said:
I see that knock on the '07 running game a lot, and the 'pass happy' apellation for that team, but that wasn't by design, it just happened to work out that way due to circumstance.
the superbowl was a trainwreck, but you'd have to admit the run game looked pretty good against sd in the playoffs.

and how many did they put on ir last year?
let's cut the '08 defense a little slack.

eom · Mar 11, 2009

oh yeah?

the defense had to sign seau and colvin out of their swimming pools on a wednesday and play them on sunday.

tanked_as_usual · Mar 11, 2009

shakadave said:
Mgteich alluded to this but I need to echo again:
Ty Law --- Hall of Famer
Rodney Harrison --- borderline Hall of Famer
Asante Samuel --- not impossible to imagine him getting HoF consideration someday
Eugene Wilson --- very good back then

I like our recent moves, but we're not approaching 2003-2004.

the current secondary is better than the one the pats wound up with in 2004

but the truth is that the success of the pats pass defense correlates directly to the ability for the defense to pressure the passer.........fewer sacks (like in 2000,2005,2008) allow high opposing passer ratings and lots of TD's with few turnovers........the only exception is 2002, but there weren't that many sack because teams were busy running to almost 5 yards per carry

improve the pass rush and the secondary will look like heroes

bostonia3333 · Mar 12, 2009

Its nice to see the Pats making some moves this offseason especially in the secondary. But the fact that Ellis Hobbs is still on this roster is a worrisome thing. He cost Tom Brady 2 Super bowls. Lets not go overboard with this secondary and say its gonna be tops in the league. Bodden played with Detroit and Springs is not a spring chicken either--lots of question marks still linger. I am happy the Pats are "addressing" the secondary, but whether or not it is going to be improved remains to be seen

CoachK · Mar 12, 2009

KC Joyner on Springs today on ESPN Chat:

"Believe it or not, Springs actually has the lowest cumulative YPA of any CB in the six seasons I've been doing this. He really is that good."

ESPN: Chat with KC Joyner - SportsNation

HEY BRO! WHAT UP? · Mar 12, 2009

CoachK said:
KC Joyner on Springs today on ESPN Chat:

"Believe it or not, Springs actually has the lowest cumulative YPA of any CB in the six seasons I've been doing this. He really is that good."

ESPN: Chat with KC Joyner - SportsNation

Playing for the Redskins, whose D-line is known for not scaring opposing QB's, tells me that Springs is pretty damn good. This is very good news for the Pats front seven that could give a split second more time to get to the QB. I hope he can do this for one to two more seasons. Hell, three would be great!

AzPatsFan · Mar 12, 2009

mayoclinic said:
I would argue that this is the deepest secondary we have ever had. There's obviously room to get better at the top, but I'm confident that will happen over time.
.

You must be a relatively new Patriots fan.

At one time the Patriots had Mike "Spike" Haynes, Hall of Famer at one CB; Ray Clayborn, multiyear probowler at the other CB; Tim Fox probowler at one S; and Fred Marion probowler at the other S.

It doesn't get much better than that!

patriot lifer · Mar 12, 2009

AzPatsFan said:
You must be a relatively new Patriots fan.

At one time the Patriots had Mike "Spike" Haynes, Hall of Famer at one CB; Ray Clayborn, multiyear probowler at the other CB; Tim Fox probowler at one S; and Fred Marion probowler at the other S.

It doesn't get much better than that!

grandpops has gotten all worked up

mgteich · Mar 12, 2009

Also, at one time, I belive that we had five #1 draft choices in one secondary. Our attitude toweard the secondary has certainly changed. Also to compare this secondary even to the one with Law, Milloy and O-T-I-S is misguided. However, after the last couple of years, optimism is good.

AzPatsFan said:
You must be a relatively new Patriots fan.

At one time the Patriots had Mike "Spike" Haynes, Hall of Famer at one CB; Ray Clayborn, multiyear probowler at the other CB; Tim Fox probowler at one S; and Fred Marion probowler at the other S.

It doesn't get much better than that!

AzPatsFan · Mar 12, 2009

mayoclinic said:
I'm not sure I entirely agree with you.

Obviously there is synergy between defense and offense. Bill Belichick's defense on the NY Giants in 1991 benefitted tremendously from a ball control offense which killed the clock and wore down opposing teams.

The 2004 Patriots offense may have lacked a bit of the explosive firepower which Brady has with Welker and Moss, but it was very balanced with a tremendous power running game. I haven't seen that balanced an offense since then, and the lack of a running game in the clutch clearly hurt us in the 2008 superbowl. I hope that last year's success with RB by committee plus the addition of Taylor will continue the trend back towards a more balanced offense. I see the rebuilding of the defense as a similar trend back towards the glory years. Regardless of the numbers put up by last year's defense, the fact is that our red zone and third down defense was extremely poor, and we could not make the key stops when we needed to - something which was a hallmark of the SB teams. That inability cost us a SB trip in 2006, a SB victory in 2007, and at the very least a playoff trip last year.

Using the Colts as an example does not inspire me with confidence, as we proved over and over that a predominantly offense oriented team was no match for a more balanced team with a superior defense.

But the point of the Colts comparison is that this is NOT a barren, flimsy, Colts Defense, at all. Just that it does also have the Colt-like awesome Offense, in ADDITION.

The Defensive line is the best 3-4 in the league and among the best 4-3 as well.

Mayo and AD are proven superb LBs. Woods, Guyton are works in progress, that are at least adequate; as is TBC. Crabel is a high draft pick that may develop and shine.

The DBs are not a poor collection. The CB position is loaded with good, fast, quick youngsters and solid vets. The Safeties are more than adequate, even with out the draft. Meriwether is a rising star, and Sanders is a proven better-than-average starter, despite some daft opinions here.

There is no question that This 2009 Defense is the fastest that Bill Belichick has fielded with the Patriots, bar none.

The only question is the pass rush and even without the draft help that we all expect, I am not unconvinced that it will not be fine. It is at least equal to an 11-5 2008 edition, and adequate with the talent already assembled; and may be very good.

The coaches say Woods best game is pass rushing, but in the few starts he had, we haven't seen it yet. Crabel was a high pick, red-shirted to beef up. Who knows what he will produce, but we do know that BB was going to draft him in the second round, and still got him in the early third, after trading with SD. TBC has been good for as many sacks every year, as Vrabel had last season.

Last year's Top Ten is this year's Top Five.

bucky · Mar 12, 2009

AzPatsFan said:
Mayo and AD are proven superb LBs. Woods, Guyton are works in progress, that are at least adequate; as is TBC. Crabel is a high draft pick that may develop and shine.

The DBs are not a poor collection. The CB position is loaded with good, fast, quick youngsters and solid vets. The Safeties are more than adequate, even with out the draft. Meriwether is a rising star, and Sanders is a proven better-than-average starter, despite some daft opinions here.

The only question is the pass rush and even without the draft help that we all expect, I am not unconvinced that it will not be fine. It is at least equal to an 11-5 2008 edition, and adequate with the talent already assembled; and may be very good.

The coaches say Woods best game is pass rushing, but in the few starts he had, we haven't seen it yet. Crabel was a high pick, red-shirted to beef up. Who knows what he will produce, but we do know that BB was going to draft him in the second round, and still got him in the early third, after trading with SD. TBC has been good for as many sacks every year, as Vrabel had last season.

That right there is a pretty rosy outlook that you're going to find on EVERY NFL team's fan site at this time of year. "High draft pick that may develop", "loaded with speed", "rising star", blah blah. Sorry AzPatsFan. This is just a typical fan's pondering during the off-season. And the fact remains that your comparison of last year's Pats to the Colts was a darn good one. The Patriots AS A TEAM were in the top 10 in pts and yards allowed. The Patriots DEFENSE BY ITSELF was below average. Thus far, they have improved marginally (In with Bodden Springs, TBC; out with Sanders, O'Neil, Vrabel). Hopefully, they'll continue to improve the overall talent on the defense through FA and most importantly, all those day 1 draft picks.

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