Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Peppers

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

bakes781 said:

Peppers' tag $ is HIGHER than that of Cassel's, therefore he's viewed as being the BETTER player! Understood?

Click to expand...

Thats using flawed logic. That assumes that just because you Franchise him means he truly is top 5 at his position. the DE tag being higher than QB indicates the increased value in the position.

example: when we tagged Tebucky Jones by no means did we think he was a top five safety but we didnt want to let him walk for nothing.

In this case you have the more established player at the higher priced postion so one could argue you were right but IMO the logic is wrong....

But also factor in that Cassel is a few years younger with much less wear and tear and I say its pretty even.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

Peppers' tag $ is HIGHER than that of Cassel's, therefore he's viewed as being the BETTER player! Understood?


you sure about this?

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

bakes781 said:

You need to seriously lower your expectations for a deal involving Matt Cassel or you'll be in for a major disappointment.

Peppers' tag $ is HIGHER than that of Cassel's, therefore he's viewed as being the BETTER player! Understood?



Perhaps DWToys was right when he suggested a 3 way deal involving KC and Carolina! :singing:

Chiefs get Matt Cassel and Pat's #23 and #47 overall picks

Panthers get Chief's #3 overall pick

Patriots get Julius Peppers and Panther's #59 overall pick

Click to expand...

F that.

I am not at all interested in Peppers if we give up Cassel, a first round pick and drop 12 spots in the second round.

I think Peppers could be nasty in this defense but not at that price.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

Peppers tag is higher because the tag is set by the top-5 salaries of the player at his position or by a 120% increase from the prior year.

Peppers had a really high cap number last year, so he fell into the latter category.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

nashvillepatsfan said:

Agreed. A deal like that would not bring a smile to my face. Not that's its all about me, but it should be

Click to expand...

Here's the thing, though, and the way I'm thinking about it. Cassel is completely like found money. Entirely. That we would get anything for him is a stroke of completely good luck. If Brady doesn't get hurt, Cassel is a free agent this year and either signs with another team or stays our back up, and we get zilch. (Good luck is overstating it, because that "good luck" was really a consequence of some very back luck with Brady, but you get the point.)

By showcasing himself last year, he catches lighting in a bottle, and the Patriots because they have the luxury of the tender have the opportunity to get something for him where they previously would have gotten nothing.

I agree that they need to find the best value they can for him. But the thought of getting Julius Peppers, if we can afford him, for essentially a second round pick, is unbelievable if you think about it. The point is that Cassel has zero use to us, except what we can get for him. Someone posted a thread about a year or two ago asking what player from another team would you like the most. I think I picked Peppers.

If BB thinks he can play here. I'd trade MC and a second for him in a second.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

bakes781 said:

You need to seriously lower your expectations for a deal involving Matt Cassel or you'll be in for a major disappointment.

Chiefs get Matt Cassel and Pat's #23 and #47 overall picks

Panthers get Chief's #3 overall pick

Patriots get Julius Peppers and Panther's #59 overall pick

Click to expand...

We can get the #3 overall from KC for a lot less than what you have proposed.

The #23 and #47 picks aren't worth enough combined to get the #3, but the difference between the values is not high enough to justify throwing in Matt Cassel, who we can EASILY get a first round draft pick for in a trade to another team.

Then one has to decide is Peppers is even worth the #3 overall. I think he is, but other might disagree.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

Bah.

Fantasy football.

No one except Doofus Snyder would pay the big bucks for Peppers for him to TRY to SWITCH positions and play at a weight 20#s higher than anyone ever played the position before.

Even when he was a DE, no one ever accused him of being a good edge setter. And now you want him to drop into coverage? All for a measly $16 million a year?

How is trading Cassel for Peppers going to help you sign Wilfork or Seymour or Mankins? It doesn't ! :disagreement:

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

Matt Cassel, who we can EASILY get a first round draft pick for in a trade to another team.

Click to expand...

Oh really? Why haven't we heard a SINGLE legit rumor of a deal yet then?

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

AzPatsFan said:

Even when he was a DE, no one ever accused him of being a good edge setter. And now you want him to drop into coverage?

Click to expand...

Umm... really? Are you serious?


FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

AzPatsFan said:

Bah.

Fantasy football.

No one except Doofus Snyder would pay the big bucks for Peppers for him to TRY to SWITCH positions and play at a weight 20#s higher than anyone ever played the position before.

Click to expand...

The trick is that any college player we draft for that position will also be switching positions from 4-3 DE, and unlike Peppers won't have proven himself a highly effective NFL pass rusher.

In a thread on the draft board a while back, I tallied up that ten first round picks have been spent on 3-4 OLB types since Ware & Merriman, and so far not one has lived up to expectations and become an impact player. It's a very, very hard position to fill, and Peppers is as good a candidate as you're likely to find.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

bakes781 said:

Oh really? Why haven't we heard a SINGLE legit rumor of a deal yet then?

Click to expand...

I know you never would accept the thought, but could it be that he is Not For Sale, except for an outrageous price, until 2010. BB wants two qualified QBs, to make sure he gets the Lombardi this year.

If 2010 is CAPless. we keep him, as he is still tied to the Pats for at least another year. If its CAPed, than KO'C will be fully groomed, and more ready, and Cassel can be traded.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

Synovia said:

Umm... really? Are you serious?


FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Click to expand...

Not bad....for an article written 2 1/2 years ago, about a single game....but why quibble over niceties like that?

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

patchick said:

The trick is that any college player we draft for that position will also be switching positions from 4-3 DE, and unlike Peppers won't have proven himself a highly effective NFL pass rusher.

In a thread on the draft board a while back, I tallied up that ten first round picks have been spent on 3-4 OLB types since Ware & Merriman, and so far not one has lived up to expectations and become an impact player. It's a very, very hard position to fill, and Peppers is as good a candidate as you're likely to find.

Click to expand...

No he is NOT. You could get the Skins not so shiny toy from Miami, for a couple of million a year, and a draft pick. You could trade for Suggs and pay half the price and a draft pick. You could do both, and still have $4 million left over. You could draft one, do all three, and still have $3 million left over...

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

patchick said:

It's a very, very hard position to fill, and Peppers is as good a candidate as you're likely to find.

Click to expand...

Yes, he very possibly is, but unlike picking a guy in the middle to end of the first round, hes never going to be "cost effective" and even if he converts perfectly, you're still going to be looking for a new guy in 3 or 4 years.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

Patriotic Fervor said:

Not bad....for an article written 2 1/2 years ago, about a single game....but why quibble over niceties like that?

Click to expand...

Thats an example. Peppers has always been good at every facet of being a DE. Hes great in coverage ALREADY, so the idea that hes not going to be able to play coverage as a LB is silly.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

bakes781 said:

Peppers' tag $ is HIGHER than that of Cassel's, therefore he's viewed as being the BETTER player! Understood?

Click to expand...

That's not true at all - The tag no. is just and average - any player at that position that was tagged would get that same no.

If Brady had been tagged, then his no. would have been the same as Cassel's - Does that make Peppers a better player than Brady?

Further - How do you say a defensive line guy is better than a Quarterback?

Or am I missing your point?

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

ScottieC said:

That's not true at all - The tag no. is just and average - any player at that position that was tagged would get that same no.

Click to expand...

No. Peppers tag amount isn't the "top 5 average", its the "or 120% of the previous year"

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

ScottieC said:

Further - How do you say a defensive line guy is better than a Quarterback?

Or am I missing your point?

Click to expand...

I would be willing to bet that many NFL GM's would rank an elite pass rusher just slightly behind a good QB.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

patchick said:

The trick is that any college player we draft for that position will also be switching positions from 4-3 DE, and unlike Peppers won't have proven himself a highly effective NFL pass rusher.

In a thread on the draft board a while back, I tallied up that ten first round picks have been spent on 3-4 OLB types since Ware & Merriman, and so far not one has lived up to expectations and become an impact player. It's a very, very hard position to fill, and Peppers is as good a candidate as you're likely to find.

Click to expand...

You're absolutely right (as usual). Merriman and Ware were unusual exceptions in 2005, much like Ryan and Flacco being successful as rookie QBs is a bit of an anomaly. Even Terrell Suggs had a much more prolonged adjustment, with bouts of inconsistency.

Kamerion Wimbley (#13 in 2006), Manny Lawson (#22 in 2006), Jarvis Moss (#17 in 2007), Anthony Spencer (#26 in 2007) and Vernon Gholston (#6 in 2008) have all had limited success at best. None has been an impact player. Gaines Adams (#4 in 2007), who was considered a potential switch to 3-4 OLB, has struggled to make an impact even at 4-3 DE.

Connor Barwin has demonstrated unusualy athleticism and has put up numbers which bear comparison with DeMarcus Ware coming out in 2005, but he is raw, has never played LB at all, and there is no guarantee that we can get him in the draft even at #23.

Ultimately, Belichick knows more about what it takes to play the 3-4 OLB position than anyone on the planet. He coached the greatest OLB ever to play the game, and he has a better idea who can and cannot play the position than anyone. IF he thinks Peppers can be an impact player at the position, then trading for Peppers would give us the best shot of landing that player then we will probably ever have again. Would I rather have DeMarcus Ware? Absolutely. But that's not an option.

I also think that if Peppers is serious about becoming a top 3-4 OLB, then by far his best chance is to go to the Patriots. He'll have to decide whether that desire is worth making some concessions on his salary demands.

Re: Pat Kirwan says his close source to the team says NE will be bidding hard for Pep

TripleOption said:

I would be willing to bet that many NFL GM's would rank an elite pass rusher just slightly behind a good QB.

Click to expand...

I'll take the bet - Let me know how your polling goes.