Just how good of a prospect is Kevin O'Connell?

maverick4 said:

A modified reincarnation of wild scrambling Bledsoe back-foot killer int's would be a bad nightmare in Pats country!! How about this guy Josh Johnson, he played nearby in a small school as well but his college numbers were ridiculous, what do you know of him?

I completely forgot M.Faulk was from SDSU... the school has been producing some pretty decent NFL talent the past few years too, multiple players from there in the league now.

Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with Josh Johnson. What school did he attend? As far as NFL players from SDSU, yes, there has been an upswing the past decade or so. But that's based mostly on the fact that San Diego and So. Cal as a whole, are player goldmines. Unfortunately, SDSU has a tough time recruiting locals and keeping them here. Most of the HS standouts end up playing in the Pac 10 or head to the SEC, etc.

Deus Irae said:

But you feel free to keep contradicting yourself from post to post.

Click to expand...

Actually I didn't. I explained that even giving the other poster the possibility that nobody knows, it still doesn't make sense to assume an endorsement of KO. This is the 4th straight post where you have nothing to add except demonstrate the fact that you're a troll a-hole. Learn how to read.

maverick4 said:

Thank you for yet another completely worthless waste of everyone else's time. Keep it up.

Click to expand...

My, my, someone didn't have their Wheaties this morning.

maverick4 said:

Thank you for yet another completely worthless waste of everyone else's time. Keep it up.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's a fair post Mav - I agree with DI - If Bill Belichick felt that Kevin was worthy of a 3rd Round pick, that goes a long way to answering the OP's (your) question of "Just how good of a Prospect is Kevin O'Connell".

In effect, Bill is answering the question for you - Who's going to argue that?

How about we play well with others and stop with the name calling and personal attacks.

This thread is on the verge of being closed or sent to the Practice Squad forum.

It is fascinating that you consider us trolls for presuming to believe that O'Connell might be a quality #2 because he was highly regarded by scouting services, was picked by the patriots on the 3rd round and Belichick chose to have him as the #2 for 15 games.

Your "evidence" that Belichick does not think that O'Connell is a qualified #2 is two canceled interviews of backup quarterbacks. You believe that that Belichick purposely chose not to have a qualified #2 for 15 games because you believe that Belichick acted on his need to protect Cassel's feelings and confidence, which were so fragile after three years that Josh and the other coaches would rather risk have no qualified #2 than to bring in a veteran backup. Is this the time to mention that Belichick has brought in veteran backups in the past to backup Brady?

My personal position at the time was that the patriots SHOULD have had a veteran backup throughout 2008 and that Cassell was considered that "veteran" for Game 1. Belichick and the coaches chose differently. They chose O'Connell as the #2 and Gutierrez as the #3. Personally, I have not changed my mind. I believe that the team is better off with a veteran as one our three quarterbacks, instead of Gutierrez.

maverick4 said:

Nobody knows, and to automatically claim that No Vet QB = O'Connell Endorsement last year is without evidence. Nobody knows why they scheduled 2 QB's before Brady went down and then called them away after Brady got hurt. But based on your reasoning that it had nothing to do with Brady's injury or Cassel's confidence, to act that rudely to some prospective players, for an organization known for being classy and doing things the right way, would be VERY odd and goes against common sense and the history of this management.

Click to expand...

ScottieC said:

If Bill Belichick felt that Kevin was worthy of a 3rd Round pick, that goes a long way to answering the OP's (your) question of "Just how good of a Prospect is Kevin O'Connell".

In effect, Bill is answering the question for you - Who's going to argue that?

Click to expand...

mgteich said:

The reality is that our #2 QB for all of last year is likely thought of by the FO as highly as Cassel at the same point in his career. It is indeed important that Belichick thought that he was worth a #3 pick.

Click to expand...

I guess my response to this line of reasoning is summed up in 2 words: Rohan Davey. Davey was picked around the same part of the draft as O'Connell and served as the Pats' #2 QB, yet Davey was not truly an NFL-caliber QB. Meanwhile, Matt Cassel was picked in the 7th round and is an NFL-caliber QB.

So it's perfectly reasonable for us to wonder what kind of prospect O'Connell really is, and to piece together any stray snippets of information that might give us some insight. Like paleontologists piecing together scraps of dinosaur bone, we might end up mis-assembling our bits and pieces and conclude that O'Connell walks on all fours, but so be it -- it's the offseason.

as Deus previously mentioned....the pats thought enough of him to draft him in the 3rd round.......nuff said....

as for maverick, it is obvious he knows nothing about the player and has some other binky going on out there.........that 'so was watson' comment is as idiotic as it gets.....why not get to know the guy instead?

YouTube - Kevin O'Connell Interview

YouTube - SDSU v Portland State Post Game Press Conference (starting at 4:35......like a true leader he gives all the credit to others and puts all the blame on himself)

risk was a needed ingredient in the SDSU offense as they arguably had the worst offensive line in Division 1 football........he ran alot because he was running for his life.......he made risky throws because he didn't have a choice.....same goes for throwing off the back leg........most college QB's have to get rid of that habit when they go to the NFL

I believe oconnell was brought to the pats attention by the same scouting that brought matt cassel......oconnell has every intangible the pats look for, and was the most athletic QB in the draft......

patchick said:

I guess my response to this line of reasoning is summed up in 2 words: Rohan Davey. Davey was picked around the same part of the draft as O'Connell and served as the Pats' #2 QB, yet Davey was not truly an NFL-caliber QB. Meanwhile, Matt Cassel was picked in the 7th round and is an NFL-caliber QB.

So it's perfectly reasonable for us to wonder what kind of prospect O'Connell really is, and to piece together any stray snippets of information that might give us some insight. Like paleontologists piecing together scraps of dinosaur bone, we might end up mis-assembling our bits and pieces and conclude that O'Connell walks on all fours, but so be it -- it's the offseason.

Click to expand...

I think the key here lies in the verbiage of the question, the OP asked about Kevin as a "Prospect". He was good enough to catch Bill's eye and use our 3 Round Pick when we all know, everyone here and in the FO of the Patriots, that we need CB's and youth on the Defensive Front.

The other thing we know is that Bill LOVES the value in the 3rd and Later Rounds - So Bill's value on Kevin was very high - Which in turn answers the question - Just how good of a Prospect is K.O.? He's a VERY good prospect and Bill would agree, so I ask it again - Who the hell is going to argue with Bill (WITHOUT the benefit of hindsight, as you can pull a number of picks out and debate them, however, that is completely irrelevant).

patchick said:

I guess my response to this line of reasoning is summed up in 2 words: Rohan Davey. Davey was picked around the same part of the draft as O'Connell and served as the Pats' #2 QB, yet Davey was not truly an NFL-caliber QB. Meanwhile, Matt Cassel was picked in the 7th round and is an NFL-caliber QB.

So it's perfectly reasonable for us to wonder what kind of prospect O'Connell really is, and to piece together any stray snippets of information that might give us some insight. Like paleontologists piecing together scraps of dinosaur bone, we might end up mis-assembling our bits and pieces and conclude that O'Connell walks on all fours, but so be it -- it's the offseason.

Click to expand...

Sure, but one of the 'hints' as to the type of prospect he is would, in fact, be that he was drafted by the Patriots in the 3rd round. It tells us that every team in the league viewed him as not being worth taken in the first two rounds, either because of his talent or because they felt he'd fall lower. It also tells us that the Patriots, one of the league's better drafting teams, felt that a 3rd round pick was worth using on O'Connell, despite the team already having Brady.

The significance of that being a 3rd rounder is that it makes it difficult for the quarterback chosen to be looked at strictly as a later trade investment, because it would be tough to convince other teams to give up a lot more than a 3rd for a player who won't be seeing the field, and just pushing the 3rd pick into the next season for a pick one round higher is a tactic the team uses all the time but chose not to do in this case. That means that the team either couldn't find a taker for the trade, or they valued the kid as high as a second round pick in the next season's draft. Developmental guys being prepared for trades are usually taken lower (Brunell in the 5th, Hasselbeck in the 6th, for example), so that there's a worthwhile return on investment. Getting a 2nd rounder for O'Connell after putting in 3-4 years of development won't be any kind of enormous coup.

So, drafting the kid in the 3rd round tells us that Belioli had picks to waste (doubtful), Belioli just wanted the kid as a potential develop/trade kid (possible, I'd guess under 50%, though), or, what would appear to be most likely to me, Belioli thought they could coach this very raw prospect up into a legitimate NFL quarterback to serve behind Brady and/or replace him given the need.

Despite Maverick's responses, that does tell us a fair bit. Sometimes the best place to start is the most obvious.

O'Connell looked pretty good in the preseason to me.

He's got a funny delivery, but his arm is definitely strong and he gets it out of there quickly. And he made some nice touch passes in preseason as well, although he did seem to throw off his back foot a lot.

But I think this kid is even more dangerous with his legs than Cassel. If they can school him up with his passing, I don't see why he can't be a good one. Raw talent-wise, it's all there for sure. What we don't know is how accurate he is and how disciplined he is, whether he'll make good decisions. But I certainly liked what I saw in preseason. In fact I thought he'd be a better option than Cassel just because his running gave the team a little something from the position at minimum. I was wrong, of course, but he sure looked like a better quarterback than Cassel in preseason. For what that's worth.

Deus Irae said:

Sure, but one of the 'hints' as to the type of prospect he is would, in fact, be that he was drafted by the Patriots in the 3rd round. It tells us that every team in the league viewed him as not being worth taken in the first two rounds, either because of his talent or because they felt he'd fall lower. It also tells us that the Patriots, one of the league's better drafting teams, felt that a 3rd round pick was worth using on O'Connell, despite the team already having Brady.

The significance of that being a 3rd rounder is that it makes it difficult for the quarterback chosen to be looked at strictly as a later trade investment, because it would be tough to convince other teams to give up a lot more than a 3rd for a player who won't be seeing the field, and just pushing the 3rd pick into the next season for a pick one round higher is a tactic the team uses all the time but chose not to do in this case. That means that the team either couldn't find a taker for the trade, or they valued the kid as high as a second round pick in the next season's draft. Developmental guys being prepared for trades are usually taken lower (Brunell in the 5th, Hasselbeck in the 6th, for example), so that there's a worthwhile return on investment. Getting a 2nd rounder for O'Connell after putting in 3-4 years of development won't be any kind of enormous coup.

So, drafting the kid in the 3rd round tells us that Belioli had picks to waste (doubtful), Belioli just wanted the kid as a potential develop/trade kid (possible, I'd guess under 50%, though), or, what would appear to be most likely to me, Belioli thought they could coach this very raw prospect up into a legitimate NFL quarterback to serve behind Brady and/or replace him given the need.

Despite Maverick's responses, that does tell us a fair bit. Sometimes the best place to start is the most obvious.

Click to expand...

good points........although I don't believe he is as 'raw' as you think.........everything done at SDSU was as a result of having to execute an offense that basically lacked an offensive line.....

as for cassel, with what the pats can supposedly get for him, they don't really have a choice but to trade him and deal with brady's status some other way..........you don't leave multiple day 1 picks on the table while paying cassel what it will require to stay here.......

Deus Irae said:

Sure, but one of the 'hints' as to the type of prospect he is would, in fact, be that he was drafted by the Patriots in the 3rd round. It tells us that every team in the league viewed him as not being worth taken in the first two rounds, either because of his talent or because they felt he'd fall lower. It also tells us that the Patriots, one of the league's better drafting teams, felt that a 3rd round pick was worth using on O'Connell, despite the team already having Brady.

Click to expand...

Oh, I'm not saying draft position is meaningless. (I'm an obsessive draftnik, after all!) I just don't think it's a very interesting answer to the question in this particular case.

Look at the 2008 QB class -- there was a HUGE dropoff in quality after O'Connell. You start with Ryan & Flacco in the first, then move to skilled but less physically gifted prospects Brohm & Henne in round 2, and the Flacco-esque O'Connell in the 3rd. Then a gap with zero QBs in round 4, and a motley assortment in the later rounds: Booty, Dixon, et al.

So maybe the Pats were set on developing a new backup with Cassel heading into his final year, and they decided they had no choice but to move early because KO was the only legit prospect left. Or, maybe they graded KO as similar to Flacco and took him as a luxury pick, feeling that a tremendous value had fallen into their laps in round 3. Or...who knows?

A QB can become a 3rd-rounder many ways, with different strengths and weaknesses. In O'Connell's case, what interests me most is not the spot where he was drafted but the package of strengths and weaknesses that got him drafted at all. They seem to point to a very high ceiling but very low readiness.

mgteich said:

So, your position is that after coaching Cassell for three full years, and four camps, the team was so afraid of his fragile ego that they refused to sign a backup in case Cassell was injured. They knowingly went into the rest of the season with no backup with whom that had any faith. I just want to understand.

Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with fragile egos. It has to do with subconscious and unconscious doubts that would immediately creep up.

One of the things I admire about Belichick and Kraft is their ability to let the players focus on playing the game. [As one example--the Patriots kept Gostkowski from the media the week before he faced Vinatieri in the AFCCG, specifically so that he could just focus on the game, rather than have to deal with the 'philosophical' implications of rookie v. all-time legend.]

Metaphors said:

Bottom line is that you can't predict how O'Connell will turn out in the NFL because we don't know if football is important enough to him. If it is a priority for him and he puts in the physical and mental work, I have no doubt that he will be a playoff caliber QB and a franchise QB if used correctly. If he is satisfied with drawing an NFL paycheck, then all bets are off.

Click to expand...

Given this:

patchick said:

Intelligence/Intangibles:
4-year captain, hailed for his terrific leadership skills, toughness and confidence. Reported to have registered the #1 Wonderlic score of the year at the Combine.

Click to expand...

I'm going to assume he is not satisfied with drawing an NFL paycheck.

And, BTW, this article doesn't prove anything, but I offer it as a data point for discussion:

O'Connell knew what was coming before the public did. His phone rang Sunday morning, 10 minutes before the 94th selection. It was Patriots coach Bill Belichick, who introduced himself and quickly started talking football. After a few minutes of small talk, Belichick asked O'Connell if he wanted to play for the Patriots.

"I was really in awe of what happened," said O'Connell, who's expected to compete to be Tom Brady's backup next season. "To pick up the phone and hear Bill Belichick on the other end asking me to join his team was a real honor."

Click to expand...

I have seen every 2009 QB draft candidate, and I saw what Kevin O'Connel did in last summer camp. In addition he was a third round pick of an awfully good scouting staff.

I think he has the triangle numbers that are better than any 2009 QB candidate. (Stafford's arm is very inacurate).

He also looked very raw. He does have bad passing foot mechanics, but his feet are nimble and he has as much scrambling ability as I have seen in along time, in a NFL sized QB. I thereby exclude some jitterbugs who have neither the arm or size to be an NFL QB.

He is not ready. He does not yet display the POISE that Matt Cassell had in 2006, and 2007 games such as the Miami regualr season game.

I have no way to measure the 90% of QB play that goes on between the ears. Brady and Cassel have it; Kevin MAY have it, but he hasn't yet demonstrated it on the Field.

Last preseason, he was given no plays other than a few simple ones, and told to run around if those aren't available. He did that. But it did show how raw he was, as you would expect coming from a smaller program.

He might be ready to be an NFL QB in 2010 or 2011, if progress continues. It is highly unlikely that he could come anywhere near duplicating Cassel's 2008 season if called on in 2009, IMHO.

With what he was given to do in preseason he did well, I think he can develop over the next couple years. I look forward to see him playing more this preseason he was pretty exciting to watch before.

I think this offseason will be very telling. It will tell us two major things, It will tell us the health of Brady's knees and will tell us what the Pats brass thoughts are as far as O'Connell's progress as an NFL QB. Most QB's, at least in the Pats system, seem to make very big progress from season 1 to season 2. Look at Brady, look at Cassell, they both moved to the #2 slot in their second seasons, and looked great during the preseason. I bet we will see tons of young Mr. O'Connell in the 2009 preseason. If Brady AND O'Connell are ready, I think we trade Cassel. I think this will be one of the most interesting offseasons since after the Pats won SB 36, and had the Brady/Bledsoe dilemma to resolve.

tanked_as_usual said:

that 'so was watson' comment is as idiotic as it gets......

Click to expand...

Why? We have burned recent top draft picks on raw, workout warriors, ranging from Watson, to Jackson, to Maroney. O'Connell is another very athletic, raw guy we have spent a high pick on, and a player a lot of people don't know too much about. Nobody knows the reasons why we burned a 3rd on him, his draft position does not automatically imply greatness or current ability to backup Brady. It seems pretty ignorant to not want to collectively compile and share info on this guy. That SDSU alum's input here, other posters with vids and links, how is that not relevant and interesting, especially given our QB situation and draft scenarios this year?

To simply say 'BB took [player] in round [x], nuf said'... is mindless and unintellectual.