Just how good of a prospect is Kevin O'Connell?

mgteich said:

The point of this thread is that posters here can evaluate talent better than the patriots. After a year, we can look at old college film and public scouting reports and figure out whether our 3rd rounder was really worth it and can be really be the #2.

Click to expand...

The thread asked for anyone with any insights, video, or articles that can shed some more light on a player who even now, is a complete unknown.

Nobody here said that fans can evaluate better than pros, and for you to presume that is condescending and childish. It must be fun for you to be on a fan discussion website and belittle anyone who wants to share opinions or links on players.

What was his 3-cone time?

Seriously ... how would we know. We've had Chad and we've had Bethel turn out bad. Maroney is made of glass and Cassel a 7th rounder looks to have 2nd round potential or more. We can all babble about it for fun but really until he faces starting DL's and LB's what does all that potential say ... it says very little. Bill took him in the 3rd and all he does is flick the wrist and he can throw it a mile ... other 1st round top 10 Qb's have done that also so :confused2:

It's true, we had no clue about Cassel either, probably knew even less about him than O'Connell.

But this is a fan discussion site, if all we're ever going to do is say 'In BB we trust' and cite the draft position on a player, then what's the point of ever coming back here? We all come here to throw around opinions and learn more than you would otherwise through places like ESPN

maverick4 said:

The biggest problem I have is this guy is used to being the entire offense and multiple reports said he loves to make risky throws, likes to throw off his back foot too much, and go deep too often. Basically, too undisciplined and possibly less open to totally following coaching. All of the above sound a little too Bledsoe-esque to me, even though he probably also has great scrambling ability.

Click to expand...

Really hard to project O'Connell based on his college experience since his offensive line was suckish. The bad habits you mention could have been a result of never having a pocket to work with and knowing he had to make big plays for his team to win. That being said, O'Connell's mechanics were not only bad, they were inconsistent.

Even with the negatives, I thought O'Connell was a perfect fit for the Pats. His deficiencies (footwork, repeatable delivery) were all correctable and his key assets (height, speed, arm strength, smarts, leadership) were not coachable. He needed serious coaching, a year or two to learn and a role model (or two as it turned out) and the Pats needed to plan for what the post-Brady offense might look like.

Belichick loves the Florida offense and O'Connell is a taller Tebow with a plus arm and better wheels. If O'Connell pans out, the Pats will have the prototypical quarterback to run the spread. Odds are that he will come up short of that...but the Pats must have thought the chances were reasonable to use a 3rd on him (I had him going to the Pats in the 5th round).

Much like Cassel, the Pats had to use their imagination a bit when evaluating O'Connell. Give Cassel a year or two of starting snaps at USC and he would probably have been a 1st round pick. Give O'Connell a year or two of starting snaps at Florida and he would probably have been a top 5 overall pick.

Bottom line is that you can't predict how O'Connell will turn out in the NFL because we don't know if football is important enough to him. If it is a priority for him and he puts in the physical and mental work, I have no doubt that he will be a playoff caliber QB and a franchise QB if used correctly. If he is satisfied with drawing an NFL paycheck, then all bets are off.

mgteich said:

Of course a veteran could have been brought in during the 2008 pre-season, and/or after Game 1, and could have been valuable late in the season if needed. Belichick decided that a veteran wasn't needed.

Click to expand...

Belichick called off adding veteran QB's to boost Cassel's confidence and as a signaling statement. He initially had 2 QB's scheduled in for visits before the Chiefs game happened, and then canceled them to show Cassel support. The fact we didn't bring a vet QB in last year probably means nothing pertaining to the Pats' assessment of O'Connell.

maverick4 said:

Anyone from the San Diego area who can comment?
Or has anyone actually come across any scouting vids of this guy?
I've seen one, it was grainy and looked more like a HS game.

Click to expand...

I'm an SDSU alum and watched KO for years. The original poster has a pretty accurate assessment. KO was always running for his life at State, yet was more accurate out of the pocket than in. His throwing off his back foot wasnt just sporadic....it was epidemic. Again though, because he was running for his life. If he runs and throws, usually very accurate. If he runs, then stops, its typically off the back foot, and.......picked. I think what he "could be" is what you guys have already seen in Cassel. You guys have a nice dillema of multiple QBs. However, it would be very interesting to see how he could develop under Brady and BB. He is a work horse and given the right tutoring, could carry a team down the road.

MiChargers said:

I'm an SDSU alum and watched KO for years. The original poster has a pretty accurate assessment. KO was always running for his life at State, yet was more accurate out of the pocket than in. His throwing off his back foot wasnt just sporadic....it was epidemic. Again though, because he was running for his life. If he runs and throws, usually very accurate. If he runs, then stops, its typically off the back foot, and.......picked. I think what he "could be" is what you guys have already seen in Cassel. You guys have a nice dillema of multiple QBs. However, it would be very interesting to see how he could develop under Brady and BB. He is a work horse and given the right tutoring, could carry a team down the road.

Click to expand...

Based on your description (thanks for chiming in, great to have a San Diego perspective on this), I'm imagining an optimistic projection of KO as Bledsoe-like in the pocket (throwing off the back foot, risky throws) and Big Ben when outside the pocket.

Based on your opinion, how accurate is KO? I've seen a bunch of reports say his accuracy is horrible, and other conflicting reports say his accuracy is uncannily good? [edit] Actually I re-read what you said, I think his accuracy may depend on whether he's moving or not.

maverick4 said:

Based on your description, I'm imagining an optimistic projection of KO as Bledsoe in the pocket and Big Ben when outside the pocket.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not sure. I'd say he's better than Ben outside the pocket. The kid has mad scrambling and evasive skills......courtesy of our suck OL. One thing I can tell you though, is that he was SO jazzed about going to NE when he was drafted. He talked at length in the local media about learning there and being coached by BB and staff. If nothing else, he's very hungry to be taught. With a line to protect him, he could be something very special.

I'm pretty optimistic about KO. He has a strong arm and he has legs too so he could be the next Cassel for us if he turns out right. But this is very early to talk about his chances. Cassel learned for 4 years before he even got a chance to start. Hopefully with a healthy Brady, it will take just as long before KO will be looking at starter snaps.

MiChargers said:

His throwing off his back foot wasnt just sporadic....it was epidemic. Again though, because he was running for his life. If he runs, then stops, its typically off the back foot, and.......picked.

Click to expand...

This is a pretty hilarious description, I can imagine MiChargers reminiscing about O'Connell back-foot thrown picks.

One can either sit back and ignore opinions or comment on them. I have ignored most threads. Certainly we can all wonder about each of our players who hasn't played much and review their college game film and scouting information to glean information. My points were and are:
1) The patriots believe the O'Connell was worth a third rounder, a very high investment for a patriot backup quarterback.
2) Scouting services had high praise for his abilities.
3) The coaches have watched him play in hundreds of practices, have viewed all his college film, combines, pro-date info and have the analysis of a private scouting service not shared with other teams.
4) The team determined that he was the #2 QB for 15 games of the 2008 season.
5) I suppose I can wonder how good he is and can discuss whether he is the #3 or #4 or #5 QB picked in last year's draft with absolutely no information. I choose not to.
6) I often disagree with decisions of the team, less often than many here but often enough. Personally, I wouldn't be in the current situation. I would have already signed a veteran in perseason or after game 1. He would be well prepared at this point to be the #2 for the 2009 season, or certainly able to compete with O'Connell for th #2 position.
7) And my further judgement on O'Connell will come after two pieces of information. First, I will see whether the patriots sign a veteran. If not, then I will know that O'Connell has been judged good enough, yet again, to be our #2 QB. And then, perhaps, but hopefully never, I will see how he performs in season game action.

Anyone is free to discuss anything about the quarterback situation they wish. They can suggest keeping Cassel on the roster at $14M a year as a backup because O'Connell isn't ready. Poster can insist on at least a 2009 first for Cassel and draft a sure pro-bowl pass-rusher with that pick. Everyone has their fantasies. Freedom of expression, no matter how misguided, is a freedom we respect here. However, ignorance and misguided analysis, free of criticism, is rarely tolerated for long.

maverick4 said:

The thread asked for anyone with any insights, video, or articles that can shed some more light on a player who even now, is a complete unknown.

Nobody here said that fans can evaluate better than pros, and for you to presume that is condescending and childish. It must be fun for you to be on a fan discussion website and belittle anyone who wants to share opinions or links on players.

Click to expand...

maverick4 said:

This is a pretty hilarious description, I can imagine MiChargers reminiscing about O'Connell back-foot thrown picks.

Click to expand...

Well, when I attended, SDSU was an offensive force with M. Faulk and Co. After I graduated, they steadily declined. O'Connell became one of the few bright spots on the team. Even still, yeah, his scrambling and INTs were not for the faint at heart.

mgteich said:

First, I will see whether the patriots sign a veteran. If not, then I will know that O'Connell has been judged good enough, yet again, to be our #2 QB.

Click to expand...

As previously explained in the past, the lack of a veteran QB last year was more of a confidence signal for Cassel than any sort of endorsement for O'Connell. It's not like O'Connell made a quantum leap in improvement the weekend before the Pats scheduled 2 QB's to come in, and then canceled after Brady got hurt.

MiChargers said:

Well, when I attended, SDSU was an offensive force with M. Faulk and Co. After I graduated, they steadily declined. O'Connell became one of the few bright spots on the team. Even still, yeah, his scrambling and INTs were not for the faint at heart.

Click to expand...

A modified reincarnation of wild scrambling Bledsoe back-foot killer int's would be a bad nightmare in Pats country!! How about this guy Josh Johnson, he played nearby in a small school as well but his college numbers were ridiculous, what do you know of him?

I completely forgot M.Faulk was from SDSU... the school has been producing some pretty decent NFL talent the past few years too, multiple players from there in the league now.

So, your position is that after coaching Cassell for three full years, and four camps, the team was so afraid of his fragile ego that they refused to sign a backup in case Cassell was injured. They knowingly went into the rest of the season with no backup with whom that had any faith. I just want to understand.

M understanding is that patriots are a business and the players are professionals. I would think that Cassell would have understand the need for qualified backups, given that Brady had jus tbeen injured. My belief is that the coaching staff is good enough to have given Cassell sufficient support even if they signed a needed backup.

maverick4 said:

As previously explained in the past, the lack of a veteran QB last year was more of a confidence signal for Cassel than any sort of endorsement for O'Connell. Also, one can maintain whatever high brow viewpoint s/he wants, but the act gets boring/lame quickly.

Click to expand...

mgteich said:

So, your position is that after coaching Cassell for three full years, and four camps, the team was so afraid of his fragile ego that they refused to sign a backup in case Cassell was injured. They knowingly went into the rest of the season with no backup with whom that had any faith. I just want to understand.

M understanding is that patriots are a business and the players are professionals. I would think that Cassell would have understand the need for qualified backups, given that Brady had jus tbeen injured. My belief is that the coaching staff is good enough to have given Cassell sufficient support even if they signed a needed backup.

Click to expand...

So you're saying it's a typical Patriots practice to invite 2 QB's in for visits before the Chiefs game, and then once having arrived in Foxboro, to notify them to go back home immediately? And that the timing of Brady's injury had no impact on this odd/rude practice of sending a player back without seeing him? And that the multiple Boston media reports on the subject when it happened, ascribing it to supporting Cassel, were just bull?

Your ignorance and misguided analysis on this is interesting.

I apologize. I didn't know that the Boston media were such experts. I don't know why the quarterbacks were sent back. I don't think anyone on the not a member of the patriots knows. Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps the team knowingly decided to play the season without what they considered a qualified backup because Cassell was such a potential head case. I have no way to KNOW, and neither do you.

We can indeed express our opinions and call each other ignorant and misguided.

maverick4 said:

So you're saying it's a typical Patriots practice to invite 2 QB's in for visits before the Chiefs game, and then once having arrived in Foxboro, to notify them to go back home immediately? And that the timing of Brady's injury had no impact on this odd/rude practice of sending a player back without seeing him? And when multiple Boston media wrote on the subject when it happened, ascribing it to supporting Cassel?

You're ignorance and misguided analysis on this is interesting.

Click to expand...

mgteich said:

I don't know why the quarterbacks were sent back. I don't think anyone on the not a member of the patriots knows.

Click to expand...

Nobody knows, and to automatically claim that No Vet QB = O'Connell Endorsement last year is without evidence. Nobody knows why they scheduled 2 QB's before Brady went down and then called them away after Brady got hurt. But based on your reasoning that it had nothing to do with Brady's injury or Cassel's confidence, to act that rudely to some prospective players, for an organization known for being classy and doing things the right way, would be VERY odd and goes against common sense and the history of this management.

There is no question that team acted rudely and very oddly in this situation.

maverick4 said:

Nobody knows, and to automatically claim that No Vet QB = O'Connell Endorsement last year is without evidence. Nobody knows why they scheduled 2 QB's before Brady went down and then called them away after Brady got hurt. But based on your reasoning that it had nothing to do with Brady's injury or Cassel's confidence, to act that rudely to some prospective players, for an organization known for being classy and doing things the right way, would be VERY odd and goes against common sense and the history of this management.

Click to expand...

maverick4 said:

As previously explained in the past, the lack of a veteran QB last year was more of a confidence signal for Cassel than any sort of endorsement for O'Connell. It's not like O'Connell made a quantum leap in improvement the weekend before the Pats scheduled 2 QB's to come in, and then canceled after Brady got hurt.

Click to expand...

maverick4 said:

Nobody knows, and to automatically claim that No Vet QB = O'Connell Endorsement last year is without evidence. Nobody knows why they scheduled 2 QB's before Brady went down and then called them away after Brady got hurt. But based on your reasoning that it had nothing to do with Brady's injury or Cassel's confidence, to act that rudely to some prospective players, for an organization known for being classy and doing things the right way, would be VERY odd and goes against common sense and the history of this management.

Click to expand...

Now you're even arguing with yourself. Brilliant!

The reality is that there are multiple possible reasons for the Patriots actions, and the team hasn't made the public privy to which reason, or reasons, were the basis for those actions. However, I don't recall reading that either quarterback claimed the Patriots were rude. I do know that they chose to re-sign Gutz instead. Beyond that, one can only speculate. Personally, Gutz' familiarity with the offense makes the most sense to me, particularly since Simms and Rattay aren't exactly world beaters.

But you feel free to keep contradicting yourself from post to post.