Cassel's stock and tag+trade-ability level...

BradyManny · Dec 8, 2008

I just brought this up in another thread, but I thought Cassel's performance yesterday, while good enough for the win and highlighted by a few great plays, was not his best. I attribute some of it to the OL, but he left some plays out there, and I thought he lacked the pocket presence & accuracy of week's prior.

Going into the Steelers game, his stock would've been at "tag and trade for a first rounder" level. Where is it at now? I'd say we could either get a 2nd, or swap firsts with someone in the middle round (I'm still assuming we're picking late in the first round at this point) [in addition to some other 3rd-5th round picks].

The next 3 games will be huge in terms of whether a) Cassel can continue to play at a level that earns us a playoff berth b) Cassel continues to play at a level that is worthy of us tagging him and grabbing some draft picks from a QB-hungry team.

swheeler23 · Dec 8, 2008

BradyManny2344 said:
I just brought this up in another thread, but I thought Cassel's performance yesterday, while good enough for the win and highlighted by a few great plays, was not his best. I attribute some of it to the OL, but he left some plays out there, and I thought he lacked the pocket presence & accuracy of week's prior.

Going into the Steelers game, his stock would've been at "tag and trade for a first rounder" level. Where is it at now? I'd say we could either get a 2nd, or swap firsts with someone in the middle round (I'm still assuming we're picking late in the first round at this point) [in addition to some other 3rd-5th round picks].

The next 3 games will be huge in terms of whether a) Cassel can continue to play at a level that earns us a playoff berth b) Cassel continues to play at a level that is worthy of us tagging him and grabbing some draft picks from a QB-hungry team.

The Patriots may need to play Cassel next year. Brady looks to have lost alot of weight. The pictures I saw of him in miami he looks to have lost a lot of weight.I am sure that is normal for someone with an infection but can he get strong enough in 7 months?

ctpatsfan77 · Dec 8, 2008

Jay Cutler lost 30 pounds last season because of his diabetes, and managed to put that back on during the offseason.

PatsWickedPissah · Dec 8, 2008

swheeler23 said:
The Patriots may need to play Cassel next year. Brady looks to have lost alot of weight. The pictures I saw of him in miami he looks to have lost a lot of weight.I am sure that is normal for someone with an infection but can he get strong enough in 7 months?

Uh yeah he can. In a concerted 6 month effort now that the infection is gone, most any athelete and particularly a dedicated and focused onl like Brady can build up some serious muscle. I'm amazed at how many Pats fans seriously underestimate this future HOF lock's approach to the game.

AzPatsFan · Dec 8, 2008

PatsWickedPissah said:
Uh yeah he can. In a concerted 6 month effort now that the infection is gone, most any athelete and particularly a dedicated and focused onl like Brady can build up some serious muscle. I'm amazed at how many Pats fans seriously underestimate this future HOF lock's approach to the game.

Wishful thinking is something that BB and SP DON'T do. Tom Brady will be unavailable or not the Tom Brady we all want until sometime into the next season. Sorry but that is the truth. The Pats wil have to find somebody to play QB for the early part of the season until Tom is ready. Who that will be is undetermined as yet. Cassel? Maybe Or an acquistion of a established vet to play and than back up Tom after he is ready. Or gambel that KOC has progressed enough but not likely in 2009. How many games that QB will start can vary from 4-16, but probably about 5-8. Sorry that is the reality.

billdog3484 · Dec 8, 2008

youre overall assessment wasnt bad. i think though, that a winner is a winner. he had a 4th quarter, come-from-behind victory today on the road. that shows guts, especially completing so many 3rd downs along the way.

Mogamedogz · Dec 8, 2008

swheeler23 said:
The Patriots may need to play Cassel next year. Brady looks to have lost alot of weight. The pictures I saw of him in miami he looks to have lost a lot of weight.I am sure that is normal for someone with an infection but can he get strong enough in 7 months?

I could put on 20lbs of Muscle in 7 months, and im not a professional athlete with personal nutritionist and strength conditioners at my every beck and call.

signbabybrady · Dec 8, 2008

BradyManny2344 said:
I just brought this up in another thread, but I thought Cassel's performance yesterday, while good enough for the win and highlighted by a few great plays, was not his best. I attribute some of it to the OL, but he left some plays out there, and I thought he lacked the pocket presence & accuracy of week's prior.

Going into the Steelers game, his stock would've been at "tag and trade for a first rounder" level. Where is it at now? I'd say we could either get a 2nd, or swap firsts with someone in the middle round (I'm still assuming we're picking late in the first round at this point) [in addition to some other 3rd-5th round picks].

The next 3 games will be huge in terms of whether a) Cassel can continue to play at a level that earns us a playoff berth b) Cassel continues to play at a level that is worthy of us tagging him and grabbing some draft picks from a QB-hungry team.

Even if you want to say yesterday was a bad performance I think winning when you don't put out your best is something everyone needs to be able to do. He lead the game winning drive after what the OP states was a bad day and that would be good in my book if I thought Cassel did have a bad day but I think he had a pretty good day.

BradyManny · Dec 8, 2008

signbabybrady said:
Even if you want to say yesterday was a bad performance I think winning when you don't put out your best is something everyone needs to be able to do. He lead the game winning drive after what the OP states was a bad day and that would be good in my book if I thought Cassel did have a bad day but I think he had a pretty good day.

From our perspective, Cassel had a great game yesterday b/c it was gutsy and he did what was needed to win. But from a scout's perspective or a GM's perspective, I personally thought yesterday was not necessarily a backwards step, but not the step forward we've come to expect. He'd improved literally every game going into the Steelers game. For instance, there were games earlier in the season where he was much maligned by fans but I thought he was better in the pocket and more accurate than he was yesterday. It's all perspective and its all about the W or L - for us fans that is.

I do think he needs to play a little bit better than yesterday over the next 3 games to earn us a 1st rounder via tag and trade.

hyperpat · Dec 8, 2008

AzPatsFan said:
Wishful thinking is something that BB and SP DON'T do. Tom Brady will be unavailable or not the Tom Brady we all want until sometime into the next season. Sorry but that is the truth. The Pats wil have to find somebody to play QB for the early part of the season until Tom is ready. Who that will be is undetermined as yet. Cassel? Maybe Or an acquistion of a established vet to play and than back up Tom after he is ready. Or gambel that KOC has progressed enough but not likely in 2009. How many games that QB will start can vary from 4-16, but probably about 5-8. Sorry that is the reality.

What? Who are you to tell us what "reality" is?

Oh, I get it, you're BB posting here under a pseudonym. Thanks for the info, coach. Can you tell us how serious Wilfork's injury is?

JediMind · Dec 8, 2008

Mogamedogz said:
I could put on 20lbs of Muscle in 7 months, and im not a professional athlete with personal nutritionist and strength conditioners at my every beck and call.

Sorry but your not going to put on 20lbs of lean muscle mass (staying at the same bodyfat%) in 7 months. Unless your a 130 pound newb to training with good genetics, a flawless diet/sleep routine and a proven training regiment, you can only expect 1-2 lbs per month of LMM.

TB, on the other hand will have the benefit of muscle memory (google it), as well as what you stated above to quickly get back to where he was pre-injury.

BradyManny · Dec 8, 2008

JediMind said:
Sorry but your not going to put on 20lbs of lean muscle mass (staying at the same bodyfat%) in 7 months. Unless your a 130 pound newb to training with good genetics, a flawless diet/sleep routine and a proven training regiment, you can only expect 1-2 lbs per month of LMM.

TB, on the other hand will have the benefit of muscle memory (google it), as well as what you stated above to quickly get back to where he was pre-injury.

I dunno about this. I remember when I went into college a pretty skinny guy, working out religiously for a semester, I was nearly 15 LBS heavier by XMas break and it was mostly all muscle. That's 5 months time. You gotta account for upper and lower body mass. It's do-able.

PatsWickedPissah · Dec 8, 2008

AzPatsFan said:
Wishful thinking is something that BB and SP DON'T do. Tom Brady will be unavailable or not the Tom Brady we all want until sometime into the next season. Sorry but that is the truth. The Pats wil have to find somebody to play QB for the early part of the season until Tom is ready. Who that will be is undetermined as yet. Cassel? Maybe Or an acquistion of a established vet to play and than back up Tom after he is ready. Or gambel that KOC has progressed enough but not likely in 2009. How many games that QB will start can vary from 4-16, but probably about 5-8. Sorry that is the reality.

I love the way you state conjecture as 'truth'. Based upon recovery time by other atheletes, TB should be ready for late July camp. Given that he has the best possible medical care and has shown himself to be a determined workaholic I say that the odds are he starts opening day 2009.

JediMind · Dec 8, 2008

BradyManny2344 said:
I dunno about this. I remember when I went into college a pretty skinny guy, working out religiously for a semester, I was nearly 15 LBS heavier by XMas break and it was mostly all muscle. That's 5 months time. You gotta account for upper and lower body mass. It's do-able.

Ya, you get the newb gains when you start off. That's why a beginner can start fast if they know what they are doing (compound lifts, plenty of sleep, not over training, and plenty of quality protein and complex carbs). Most beginners go into the gym do a few curls a little bench press and think their protein shake is gonna turn straight into muscle.

95% of people don't have the drive/desire/knowledge/genetics to put on 20 pounds of lean muscle mass in less than a year.

BPF · Dec 8, 2008

In this QB hungry league of course he is worth a 1st Rd pick and possibly more, btw Cassel has more passing yards than Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre and Eli Manning.

Also, Brady will be fine and back to his old self again next year. No doubt in my mind, at all.

BradyManny · Dec 8, 2008

JediMind said:
Ya, you get the newb gains when you start off.

Since clearly you have some knowledge in the field - what would the situation be like for a guy like Brady who has put on the muscle weight, lost some of it, and will be trying to put it back on? How is that comparable, if at all, to a newbie putting on muscle?

BradyManny · Dec 8, 2008

BPF said:
In this QB hungry league of course he is worth a 1st Rd pick and possibly more, btw Cassel has more passing yards than Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre and Eli Manning.

Also, Brady will be fine and back to his old self again next year. No doubt in my mind, at all.

If you're the Detroit Lions with 2 first rounders next year, one courtesy of the Cowboys, I personally have to think that you would consider Cassel. He would add legitimacy to the team and help them compete. I don't think Cassel will prove to be the savoir of any franchise, I don't think he has that level of talent. I think the true Cassel lies somewhere between the one we saw yesterday and the one we saw vs. the Dolphins.

But other teams that don't have the spare first, I think it will be harder to pry an 09 first from them for Cassel. Unless he has 3 very good games here down the stretch and plays well into the playoffs.

Rob0729 · Dec 8, 2008

swheeler23 said:
The Patriots may need to play Cassel next year. Brady looks to have lost alot of weight. The pictures I saw of him in miami he looks to have lost a lot of weight.I am sure that is normal for someone with an infection but can he get strong enough in 7 months?

Brady lost a lot of weight before he got injured. He stated that he has changed his diet thanks to Gisele and lost about 20lbs in the offseason. I don't know how much of his weight loss is due to his injury. Besides, he has plenty of time to put the weight back on. Even if he doesn't how much of his weight loss was muscle mass and how much was body fat. In fact, he may be heavier, but leaner.

Mogamedogz · Dec 8, 2008

JediMind said:
Sorry but your not going to put on 20lbs of lean muscle mass (staying at the same bodyfat%) in 7 months. Unless your a 130 pound newb to training with good genetics, a flawless diet/sleep routine and a proven training regiment, you can only expect 1-2 lbs per month of LMM.

TB, on the other hand will have the benefit of muscle memory (google it), as well as what you stated above to quickly get back to where he was pre-injury.

I hate to go here, because this thread is not about me and I don't care for when other people do this kind of thing. But I have been bodybuilding for 10 years. I could gain 20lbs of muscle in 7 months without any problem at all. I am currently 170lbs, getting up to 190 would be cake with a clean diet and strict training. I can gain/lose weight rather easily, because I know my body so well. I dont know where you got your 1-2 lbs of lean muscle per month estimate from, but TBH, that's kind of laughable IMO.

As for Brady, your are right. Muscle memory, a nutritionist to prepare his meals, and a S&C coach is all he needs. He could realistically be up 15-20 lbs in 10 weeks (BF & muscle) without any trouble, so long as he is physically able to train.

JediMind · Dec 8, 2008

Mogamedogz said:
I hate to go here, because this thread is not about me and I don't care for when other people do this kind of thing. But I have been bodybuilding for 10 years. I could gain 20lbs of muscle in 7 months without any problem at all. I am currently 170lbs, getting up to 190 would be cake with a clean diet and strict training. I can gain/lose weight rather easily, because I know my body so well. I dont know where you got your 1-2 lbs of lean muscle per month estimate from, but TBH, that's kind of laughable IMO.

As for Brady, your are right. Muscle memory, a nutritionist to prepare his meals, and a S&C coach is all he needs. He could realistically be up 15-20 lbs in 10 weeks (BF & muscle) without any trouble, so long as he is physically able to train.

You obviously have great knowledge of the subject, and i'm not trying to argue with you, but you obviously didn't fully understand my post. The average joe can't expect the 1-2lbs a month with dedication. Some have better genetics and more drive therefore will achieve more.

Of course i wasn't aware you were a 10 year BB'er who must be extremely cut at 170. I'm sure you could put on 20 lbs in 7 months cause you have probably been there or at least meet the criteria of my last post.

Your post makes it seem like you could be 300 pounds of pure muscle in 3 years if you want.

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