Top 10 All-Time Boston Clutch Sports Performers

PonyExpress · May 23, 2006

the taildragger said:
guys, I think we're having two separate discussions...

this thread is about CLUTCH athletes...if you're going to claim Russell was way more clutch than Brady then please make the case.

this is NOT a comparison of team accomplishments.

I was the only one in this thread who brought up SPECIFIC CLUTCH SITUATIONS IN WHICH RUSSELL SHINED.

IMO, russell and brady are ABSOLUTELY on par in terms of their ability in the clutch.

Pony, I couldn't disagree with you more about Montana having a better deep ball than Brady -- Please factor into the analysis that Tom has had midget receivers and, other than 2004, has not had a legit play action threat. Montana struggled not only with the deep pass, but the 20-30 yard darts in zone coverage (which he was rarely asked to throw but had Clark, Jones, Rice, Taylor and Craig to help out when necessary)...Brady makes every pass look effortless...there is no comparison in my opinion.

My point on stats was not that brady will ever catch manning, but that stats are the product of systems, you can't use them to compare QBs unless both QBs play with the same personnel and scheme...you have to use your eyes. When I see manning and brady play against quality defense it becomes obvious who the better QB is.

Marino was hardly a dumb player, he was however an EGOMANIAC who cared less about winning than showing off -- his biggest problem was coachability -- even Shula, at an advanced point in his career, couldn't rein him in. As tough as he was on the field on teammates, he was the most loved and respected guy on his team. He just needed a coach with an iron fist...stylistically brady has way more in common with marino than montana...but the intangibles are more in line with montana -- so we get the best of both worlds.

Russell was the single most important player on the floor while winning 11 out of 13 titles. Obviously your love of Brady has exceeded your ability to reason... and I'm not saying that is a flaw necessarily...

the taildragger · May 23, 2006

PonyExpress said:
Russell was the single most important player on the floor while winning 11 out of 13 titles. Obviously your love of Brady has exceeded your ability to reason... and I'm not saying that is a flaw necessarily...

I realize how GREAT he was.

Bill Russell was the driving force on the most successful team in sports history. He also played a position in a sport where raw size enables you to physically dominate a game in a way that a QB in football simply can not.

Therefore he was clearly a more dominant athlete than Brady or any other football player, save for perhaps Red Grange or Jim Thorpe.

We agree there.

The question is how was Russell more clutch than Brady? I'm not saying it's a simple question, but I've yet to see anyone else attmept to answer it.

Russell did not have to throw a pass with NFL linebackers about to cream him...in my view this is a MAJOR plus in the clutch category for our QB.

Armen Da Pats Fan · May 23, 2006

Bostonian1962 said:
Somebody smart enough to include Dennis Johnson. Well done Ray Clay!

DJ was great, for sure, but if you're gonna include him, then you have to go Cousy, Archibald, etc...

Point guards make front line players better, but they rarely carry teams...

In basketball, the glory of being clutch is the exclusive domain of forwards and centers...

ADPF

ilduce06410 · May 23, 2006

give ""Great" its due.

maverick4 said:
Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships. He lost a playoff elimination game something like one time in his entire life. I think Russell is the clear #1.
.

i gotta stick with my definition of "great". a player who changed the way the game was played. a player who became the face of the sport. a player who turned games around by himself.
IMHO, that definition gives us Bird, Orr, and Russell.

godef · May 23, 2006

PatsWorldChamps said:
many of you are too young, but that yaz dude pretty much carried a crappy team to game 7 of the world series by himself

Ca-a-arl Yastrzemski!
Ca-a-arl Yastrzemski!
Ca-a-arl Yastrzemski!
The man we call Yaz!
We love him!

the taildragger · May 23, 2006

godef said:
Yastrzemski!

As far as clutch Boston hitters, I'd still take the Babe or King Kelly over Yaz. But that's just me.

maverick4 · May 23, 2006

re

the taildragger said:
As far as clutch Boston hitters, I'd still take the Babe or King Kelly over Yaz. But that's just me.

I feel that David Ortiz is in the same boat as Tom Brady right now. It's too early to judge, and we have to wait until their careers are over to fully evaluate, but they are both building very strong cases for best clutch Boston players along with Russell, Bird, and Orr.

As for the difference between great and clutch, it comes to down the question: in an elimination game or crucial situation, who do you trust?
In basketball, I want Bill Russell on the court, and the ball in Larry Bird's hand.
In baseball, I want Schilling on the mound, with David Ortiz at bat.
In football, I want Brady on the field.
In hockey, I want Orr on the ice.

Any player can do an amazing thing once or twice, but which players have proven time and time again that they will come through? Also, another difference between great and clutch can be explained with two players as examples: Alex Rodriguez and Roger Clemens.
.

shakadave · May 23, 2006

DarthPatriot said:
ilduce06410 said:

No love for Calvin Shiraldi? That man had the eye of the tiger..utterly fearless!Me bizarro Boston fan.Me love him.

Click to expand...

Schiraldi was good until opponents figured out how to hit the fastball down the middle.

PonyExpress · May 23, 2006

maverick4 said:
I feel that David Ortiz is in the same boat as Tom Brady right now. It's too early to judge, and we have to wait until their careers are over to fully evaluate, but they are both building very strong cases for best clutch Boston players along with Russell, Bird, and Orr.

As for the difference between great and clutch, it comes to down the question: in an elimination game or crucial situation, who do you trust?
In basketball, I want Bill Russell on the court, and the ball in Larry Bird's hand.
In baseball, I want Schilling on the mound, with David Ortiz at bat.
In football, I want Brady on the field.
In hockey, I want Orr on the ice.

Any player can do an amazing thing once or twice, but which players have proven time and time again that they will come through? Also, another difference between great and clutch can be explained with two players as examples: Alex Rodriguez and Roger Clemens.
.

This is a myth. Clemens won Game 7 of the ALCS in '86, Won game 3 of the '01 WS with the yanks down 2-0, won game 3 of the NLCS in '04 with the Astros down -02, threw a 1 hit 15 K game against the M's in 2000, 2 hit the Mets in the World Series, outpitched Schilling in Game 7 in 2001 until Rivera blew it, and was undefeated with a sub 2 ERA in the WS for his career until last year at age 43. Even in his supposed "asking out" of Game 6 in '86 he went 72/3 and left with a 3-2 lead before it was blown.

shakadave · May 23, 2006

the taildragger said:
My pantheon is UNRANKED. there's no point in going to a Hall of Fame and ranking everyone. This whole "WHO'S #1" thing is something I don't subscribe to because you're comparing athletes from different:
a: positions
b: sports
c: eras
d: team qualities

I consider myself a fan of both Russell and Bird, but I'd want Bird at the end of a tie game (i.e. "clutch"), and I'd want Russell to start my team...I'd want Orr at the end of a tie game, but I'd take Gretzky to start my team.

The subject here is "clutch" athletes... I hope we can continue this dialogue -- I don't have all the answers, it's a totally SUBJECTIVE debate which I'm simply trying to fill out a bit.

This thread is so great because people are talking about SPORTS!

Precisely what is wrong with today's sports media, including talk radio, is that they focus 70% of their energy on steroids, contracts, fines and suspensions, etc. etc. To me, the good stuff is debating Mays vs. Aaron, Russell vs. Chamberlain, Orr vs. Gretzky, and so on, which this thread accomplishes nicely! Five stars!

patsfan13 · May 23, 2006

I am a Russell guy, I've seen all the guys mentioned from the 50's on. Brady has the potential to get into the Russell sphere, depending on how the rest of his career unfolds.

It hard to appreciate how great (& clutch) Russell was if you didn't get to see him.

Regardless of who is #1, the fans of Boston sports have been really lucky to have the opportunity to watch so many greats in each sport. I don't think any other city has had as many all time great players.

DarthPatriot · May 23, 2006

The thread was not the top Boston Sports athletes.It was top ten clutch.Russell was great but how many game winning shots did he hit?Does russell get all the credit?A lot of great players who won many championships did not necessarily hit the big shot with the game on the line.Now does consistency outrank clutch...maybe..but this thread is about clutch performers.Brady with his come from behind and game winning drives is clutch..Larry Bird with his clutch shooting and steals was clutch..schilling in the post season was incredibly clutch(he stepped it up when the odds were stacked agin him)Havlicek("havlicek stole the ball!!!!!!")clutch.Score Bobby Orr..clutch....And you know who else belongs on this list...Derek Lowe..but wait Lowe sucks you say...exactly...but who was the starting pitcher in every deciding game in the 2004 post season(and got the win)..Lowe...Ortiz is incredibly clutch.Manny..you dont get as many rbis as him every year and not be clutch...Russell should be considered one of the best athletes ever in any sport.Some say he didnt need to step up in big games cause he never stepped down.Alls im saying is clutch performers dont have to be great from beginning to end..They just have to perform in the clutch.

What about an all-time chokers list?
shiraldi
bob stanley
macnamara
grady little
drew bledsoe
ray bourque
paul pierce

Armen Da Pats Fan · May 24, 2006

DarthPatriot said:
The thread was not the top Boston Sports athletes.It was top ten clutch.Russell was great but how many game winning shots did he hit?Does russell get all the credit?A lot of great players who won many championships did not necessarily hit the big shot with the game on the line.Now does consistency outrank clutch...maybe..but this thread is about clutch performers.Brady with his come from behind and game winning drives is clutch..Larry Bird with his clutch shooting and steals was clutch..schilling in the post season was incredibly clutch(he stepped it up when the odds were stacked agin him)Havlicek("havlicek stole the ball!!!!!!")clutch.Score Bobby Orr..clutch....And you know who else belongs on this list...Derek Lowe..but wait Lowe sucks you say...exactly...but who was the starting pitcher in every deciding game in the 2004 post season(and got the win)..Lowe...Ortiz is incredibly clutch.Manny..you dont get as many rbis as him every year and not be clutch...Russell should be considered one of the best athletes ever in any sport.Some say he didnt need to step up in big games cause he never stepped down.Alls im saying is clutch performers dont have to be great from beginning to end..They just have to perform in the clutch.

What about an all-time chokers list?
shiraldi
bob stanley
macnamara
grady little
drew bledsoe
ray bourque
paul pierce

Would Nomar make the chokers list for the day he sat in the dugout "California Dreaming" while Derek Jeter cracked his own pie-hole open chasing a foul ball?

patsfan13 · May 24, 2006

DarthPatriot said:
The thread was not the top Boston Sports athletes.It was top ten clutch.Russell was great but how many game winning shots did he hit?Does russell get all the credit?A lot of great players who won many championships did not necessarily hit the big shot with the game on the line.Now does consistency outrank clutch...maybe..but this thread is about clutch performers.Brady with his come from behind and game winning drives is clutch..Larry Bird with his clutch shooting and steals was clutch..schilling in the post season was incredibly clutch(he stepped it up when the odds were stacked agin him)Havlicek("havlicek stole the ball!!!!!!")clutch.Score Bobby Orr..clutch....And you know who else belongs on this list...Derek Lowe..but wait Lowe sucks you say...exactly...but who was the starting pitcher in every deciding game in the 2004 post season(and got the win)..Lowe...Ortiz is incredibly clutch.Manny..you dont get as many rbis as him every year and not be clutch...Russell should be considered one of the best athletes ever in any sport.Some say he didnt need to step up in big games cause he never stepped down.Alls im saying is clutch performers dont have to be great from beginning to end..They just have to perform in the clutch.

What about an all-time chokers list?
shiraldi
bob stanley
macnamara
grady little
drew bledsoe
ray bourque
paul pierce

Being clutch isn't just shooting the winning shot, if you look at Russell's games in elimination games there is no question he was clutch. This performance includes: Key rebounds, Key defensive plays, Key blocks, and key outlet passes that led to easy baskets by teammates.

Russell did whatever was required to win, shut down Chamberlin, bother the other players on the opposition. When he blocked a shot he more often than not tipped the ball to a team mate, not just block it out of bounds for an inbounds pass by the opposition. Stats don't come close to describing how Russell controlled games from the Center position.

If you look at Celtics from that era who made the HOF, many would not have made it if they weren't Russell's teammates.

It's sorta like Jim Brown you had to see the way he dominated the game to understand how good the guy was.

Armen Da Pats Fan · May 25, 2006

NEM said:
Wasn't there a guy named Williams somewher out there????

And another guy named Boggs, and another guy named Evans, and another guy named Rice...

Some great hitters have graced the Fens, but only the '04 version won rings in the lifetimes of anybody on this board!

Top 10 All-Time Boston Clutch Sports Performers

PonyExpress

In the Starting Line-Up

the taildragger

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

Armen Da Pats Fan

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

ilduce06410

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

godef

In the Starting Line-Up

the taildragger

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

maverick4

Banned

shakadave

In the Starting Line-Up

PonyExpress

In the Starting Line-Up

shakadave

In the Starting Line-Up

patsfan13

Hall of Fame Poster

DarthPatriot

Banned

Armen Da Pats Fan

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

patsfan13

Hall of Fame Poster

Armen Da Pats Fan

2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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