TY Thread LLX: A Good Question

dryheat44 said:

Not really. A QB can badly underthrow a WR, or a DE might deflect a pass straight up into the air. Those are right place/right time picks. I remember Law had one against Tampa, but I don't know if he had an abnormal amount. Four were vs Kelly Holcomb, which is an abnormal amount.

Anyway, I went through the games again. Some of these WRs Ty was probably covering for someone who blew a coverage, but in others, he blew the coverage and someone else made the tackle. Also, on touchdowns, the box scores don't note who was in coverage. I don't believe Ty would have had coverage on a TE or an RB, although it is possible that he did on some of the better TEs (Gonzalez, McMichael):

Kansas City: Gonzalez, Kennison. (1)
Miami: McMichael, McMichael, Chambers (1)
Jax: Williams, Jones, Williams (3)
Baltimore: Clayton (1)
Tampa: Alstott, Becht, Galloway, Smith, Pittman (1)
Buffalo: Moulds, Moulds, Reed (3)
Atlanta: None
San Diego: Tomlinson (0)
Carolina: Foster (0) Panthers ran almost every play
Denver: Devoe (1)
New Orleans: Stallworth, Stallworth, Hilton, Karney (2)
New England: Givens, Givens, Davis (3)
Oakland: Porter, Moss, Gabriel (3)
Miami: McMichael, Chambers (1)
New England: Faulk, Branch (1)
Buffalo: Parrish, Moulds (2)

So he gave up +/- 23 non-scoring catches, including several long ones, plus several touchdowns, plus 8 automatic first downs on penalties. Balance that against the INTs.

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Great information.. Looking from a different perspective, how do we know he wasn't supposed to have Saftey help on some..
But that being said, I still love the stats.. I hope we can bring him back

agreed..INT is an INT..we had opportunities to get picks a few times..we didnt get em..Ty Law got whatever came..hes not going to say .."They came to me..i guess i shouldnt count them" INT is a turnover..letting your offense get ball is a good thing..you have less chance of giving up a TD.

LAW IN ORDER said:

nice photo red in blue in da face starks lover

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take your idiocy elsewhere

Digger44 said:

take your idiocy elsewhere

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take yours to fenway's bathroom

Not sure if anyone has done this but going back through the play by play from nfl.com (quickly so i may have missed something) his penalties break down as:

Pass Interferance: 2
Defensive Holding: 3 (One was declined)
Illegal Contact: 3
General: 1 (15 yard Facemasking)

In going through the logs, it seemed that L. Legree's name popped up more often than Law's did.

Oh, and this was only for regular season games, didnt do playoff games

LAW IN ORDER said:

take yours to fenway's bathroom

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like you know what a bathroom is

Digger44 said:

like you know what a bathroom is

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i do take a whiz on that red & blue face, you think damon is the best corner in baseball

IIRC, a knock on this board against Law in 2004 was his lack of interceptions. Now, some board members are trying to discount his 10 interceptions.

Digger44 said:

So many people on here make the claim that Ty had a ton of penalties for a ton of yards last year. Is this a personal opinion or a fact? I looked on NFL.com and couldn't find such a stat. Where are you guys getting this from? What documentation is there that shows Ty being so much worse thatn other corners in the league? It is true than it should not be too difficult to document.

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Is there something wrong with the other Ty threads?

b_btrick said:

Not sure if anyone has done this but going back through the play by play from nfl.com (quickly so i may have missed something) his penalties break down as:

Pass Interferance: 2
Defensive Holding: 3 (One was declined)
Illegal Contact: 3
General: 1 (15 yard Facemasking)

In going through the logs, it seemed that L. Legree's name popped up more often than Law's did.

Oh, and this was only for regular season games, didnt do playoff games

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Ever since Ty's dust-up with Herm around the end of the season I've been reporting what was said by the NY press, that Ty had 9 penalties which were accepted and 5 which were declined. Can't cite the source now but it was in the press and was in conjunction with Herm's flare-up with him. Also, it was reported that Ty was not particularly helpful in mentoring young DB's, usually left town after the game and came back Wed or Thur.

kurtinelson said:

Is there something wrong with the other Ty threads?

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lol, you are the man.

dryheat44 said:

So he gave up +/- 23 non-scoring catches, including several long ones, plus several touchdowns, plus 8 automatic first downs on penalties. Balance that against the INTs.

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Great research, Heat! As I balance it, the 10 INT's are well worth it for those catches Law seems to have allowed. Well worth it. There's no shame in allowing 1.5 catches per game! And some of those catches were short ones. I also believe he'll have the penalties under control this year, as was discussed above.

shakadave said:

Great research, Heat! As I balance it, the 10 INT's are well worth it for those catches Law seems to have allowed. Well worth it. There's no shame in allowing 1.5 catches per game! And some of those catches were short ones. I also believe he'll have the penalties under control this year, as was discussed above.

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Here's the thing that concerns me, which I mentioned last week and nobody commented on. In 54 games, from 2001 to 2004, when Ty was truly one of the best cover corners in the league, he had a TOTAL of 11 interceptions.

He was playing within the Patriots system. He was healthy.

Do people really believe that his 10 INTs last season are his norm? He's never had more than 6 in a season before. Do some people believe he's a better cornerback NOW, two-plus seasons, a major foot injury, and a rules change than he was in 2003 and 2004? Do people really believe we're going to pencil him in for 10 INTs because that's what he had with the Jets?

And finally, if he was close to the same player, don't you think his old position coach Mangini would push for the Jets to sign him. We have a HC with a defensive background, trying to install a new defense, and he's apparently not interested in a guy who knows how to play it, and has been successful in it before? Typically when a coach from a successful team moves to a new one, he brings players to help teach the system and install a winning attitude. Parcells came here and brought guys like Reyna Thompson, Myron Guyton, Steve DeOssie and Dave Meggett. When he went to the Jets, he brought in Curtis Martin, Ray Lucas, Chris Wing, and Corwin Brown. When he went to Dallas he brought in Terry Glenn, Drew Bledsoe, Jason Ferguson, and Richie Anderson. When Belichick came here, he brought in guys like Antonio Langham, Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton. When Romeo left, he brought in Willie McGinest, Justin Kurpeikis, and Joe Andruzzi. Mangini has signed Chatham. Yet he's apparently not interested in Law.

I think it's very telling.

dryheat44 said:

Do people really believe that his 10 INTs last season are his norm? He's never had more than 6 in a season before. Do some people believe he's a better cornerback NOW, two-plus seasons, a major foot injury, and a rules change than he was in 2003 and 2004? Do people really believe we're going to pencil him in for 10 INTs because that's what he had with the Jets?

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I hope no one would say that he is a better player than ever before except the Poston brothers. With that said, he could be a much smarter player than before, and that is why he had 10 picks. Look at Roman Phifer as an example. Physically he slowed down, but had so much to contribute mentally. What QB in the league would take the chance to throw in Ty's direction (besides Brady for a TD, ouch that hurt)? The point is that teams are still going to game plan away from him and if he is a Patriot that would mean trying to exploit Asante. That is not a bad scenario with Warfield in the nickel. Even if you don't think his 10 picks are legit, an opposing QB will try to stay away from Ty becasue Ty Law is a good CB, once a great CB.

Digger44 said:

I hope no one would say that he is a better player than ever before except the Poston brothers. With that said, he could be a much smarter player than before, and that is why he had 10 picks. Look at Roman Phifer as an example. Physically he slowed down, but had so much to contribute mentally. What QB in the league would take the chance to throw in Ty's direction (besides Brady for a TD, ouch that hurt)? The point is that teams are still going to game plan away from him and if he is a Patriot that would mean trying to exploit Asante. That is not a bad scenario with Warfield in the nickel. Even if you don't think his 10 picks are legit, an opposing QB will try to stay away from Ty becasue Ty Law is a good CB, once a great CB.

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That's kind of my point. Quarterbacks ARE daring to throw at Law now, with mixed results. Those years when Ty had 2-4 INTs quarterbacks didn't dare challenge him. That's why his INT totals were so low. Deion Sanders, as much as I hate him, was probably the best cover corner I've ever seen. He had many seasons of 2 and 3 INTs because nobody threw to his man. THAT's a great job of cornerbacking.

Now, judging by the numbers, Quarterbacks are seeing Ty as the weak link in the secondary. They got burned an awful lot, at least the guys named Holcomb and Simms, who contributed 6 of the 10, but they had some big plays throwing his way also.

dryheat44 said:

That's kind of my point. Quarterbacks ARE daring to throw at Law now, with mixed results. Those years when Ty had 2-4 INTs quarterbacks didn't dare challenge him. That's why his INT totals were so low. Deion Sanders, as much as I hate him, was probably the best cover corner I've ever seen. He had many seasons of 2 and 3 INTs because nobody threw to his man. THAT's a great job of cornerbacking.

Now, judging by the numbers, Quarterbacks are seeing Ty as the weak link in the secondary. They got burned an awful lot, at least the guys named Holcomb and Simms, who contributed 6 of the 10, but they had some big plays throwing his way also.

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Yes but they found out the hard way that the guy can still play. I think he was looked down upon because of his weight. He was quite chubby sp? A fit Ty in a Pats system would not be challenged as much IMO. I think he would regain much of his terror by putting on the elvis.

arrellbee said:

There are interceptions and then there are interceptions. I think the ones that count as far as being a top corner are the ones where the CB goes for the ball in roughly the same space as the receiver. I certainly didn't watch the Jets games last year, but I did see on replay clips a couple of his interceptions. On one, the receiver had cleared out on a fly pattern and Law was the only player within 5 or 10 yards of the ball - the QB just threw to the wrong place. On another one, Law was not covering tight but was maybe 5 yards deeper than the receiver and the receiver missed the ball and Law grabbed it. Those kind of interceptions are more or less gifts and I don't think very indicative of whether a CB is an effective 'cover' CB. If there are any Jets fans around or folks who watched Jets games, it would be interesting to see what the impression is about how many tight cover interceptions there were out of the 10 versus getting gifts.

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Digger44 said:

No there are not. A pick is a pick. Nobody is calling out Asante and saying he has to many gifts.

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Well, we'll just have to disagree I guess.

Football statistics are a little frustrating because it's hard to find ones that are fully indicative of a particular aspect of effectiveness that you are interested in.

Interceptions is no exception. I presume what folks want to figure out from that statistic is whether a CB is an effective CB. But does a tipped ball which falls into the hands of a CB have any bearing on whether a CB is effective ? I suggest not. Or if a CB is playing a receiver loosely and the QB misthrows the ball right at the CB without the receiver having a chance at it, does that make the CB effective ? Probably not - and may well even been because the CB was defending in a loose enough manner that he couldn't prevent a reception if the QB hit the receiver properly - that would be poor CB play rather than exemplary. Another aspect is that the CB may be getting interceptions because he is positioning himself and gambling on the interceptions and when he misses, the reception goes for long yardage or a touchdown. That is actually quite pertinent. Remember early on when there was a lot of discussion about Hobbs trying for an interception and missing ?
Fans were certainly clear about whether that was a 'good' thing or not. So you have to consider interceptions very carefully and would have to watch a fair amount of film to be able to judge correctly.

If you are trying to judge CBs, I would propose that passes defensed would be a little better stat to look at, although you would still have to look at that stat in the light of balancing passes defensed versus passes not defensed as a result of the technique of the CB. Just for interest, here's the passes defensed stats from last year. Law is very respectable - BUT you mention Asante Samuel and folks have some serious questions about how good a corner he is - but look how close he is to Ty Law. If we think Ty Law is so good, maybe Samuel is pretty good also. Just a thought.

Sheldon Brown - 25
Ike Taylor - 24
Champ Bailey - 23
Brian Dawkins - 22
Ronde Barber - 20
Shawntae Spencer - 19
Deltha O'Neal - 18
Quentin Jammer - 18
Ty Law - 18
Terence Newman - 17
David Macklin - 17
Brian Kelly - 17
Leigh Bodden - 17
Asante Samuel - 16
Charles Tillman - 16
Domonique Foxworth - 16
Rashean Mathis - 16
Darren Sharper - 16

By the way, if you look at tackles and solo tackles:
Ty Law - 45 - 36
Asante Samuel - 44 - 37

arrellbee said:

Well, we'll just have to disagree I guess.

If you are trying to judge CBs, I would propose that passes defensed would be a little better stat to look at, although you would still have to look at that stat in the light of balancing passes defensed versus passes not defensed as a result of the technique of the CB. Just for interest, here's the passes defensed stats from last year. Law is very respectable - BUT you mention Asante Samuel and folks have some serious questions about how good a corner he is - but look how close he is to Ty Law. If we think Ty Law is so good, maybe Samuel is pretty good also. Just a thought.

Sheldon Brown - 25
Ike Taylor - 24
Champ Bailey - 23
Brian Dawkins - 22
Ronde Barber - 20
Shawntae Spencer - 19
Deltha O'Neal - 18
Quentin Jammer - 18
Ty Law - 18
Terence Newman - 17
David Macklin - 17
Brian Kelly - 17
Leigh Bodden - 17
Asante Samuel - 16
Charles Tillman - 16
Domonique Foxworth - 16
Rashean Mathis - 16
Darren Sharper - 16

By the way, if you look at tackles and solo tackles:
Ty Law - 45 - 36
Asante Samuel - 44 - 37

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The problem with passes defended is that the best corners do not get thrown thrown at, and the worst will have more chances to defend. That is seen by who is in your list.

Digger44 said:

The problem with passes defended is that the best corners do not get thrown thrown at, and the worst will have more chances to defend. That is seen by who is in your list.

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There are some very good corners on the list. Brown, Bailey, Barber, Law, Leigh Bodden whom I think might be the most underrated player in the NFL, Tillman.

Good thought

The Pass Defensed and Tackle totals are very revealing. I would say the combination of (INT + PDs -TD) yielded is a great measure of CBs.

The tackle totals, a secondary measure, reveal whether you have a contact averse CB who can't or won't force the run. The only reason that Deon is not the equal of Mike Haynes is because his next run tackle would be his first...