Lost in the discussion

[NEGIRLPATSFAN]

I watched the chemistry between oConnell and CJ Jones at training camp
I am glad to see they will stay together for a while to see what they are gonna do.
Might want to keep an eye on that pair,

 

[Horace's Ivories]

I'm disappointed it wasn't 8 - Vince Redd, Binky.

Make it nine - BJGE

 

[Deus Irae]

The number is very likely to decrease in the next couple of days, or after Faulk returns.

 

[NEPatriot]

The number is very likely to decrease in the next couple of days, or after Faulk returns.

Are you sure?

 

[everlong]

The best part, and the reason why I love this team so much, they all earned it. Put up or get out.

All of the rookies plus Ventrone deserve it.

 

[jeffbiologist]

For this point of the discussion I will be a "glass half empty" guy. Having that many rookies make the team means only one thing.....we are very thin talent wise!! In the last few years it would have been inconcievable for 2 rookies to be STARTING on a BB defense. I suggest that their first 2 picks were NEED picks(and may pan out that way)as their FA colleagues couldnt beat em out(Hobson/Mayo, Wheatley/Bryant, Wilhite/Webster). What does this mean??
I would say that there wasnt a single player from last years roster who lost their job to a rookie, right? We lost a large number of free agents/salary cap cuts and the free agents we replaced them with either were outplayed or were futher salary cap casualties. To me this inbalance falls on the management not recognizing the value of our FAs compared to the ones available elsewhere. How many FAs we signed in the offseason actually made the team??
Guys lost/replacements

Seau/Mayo
Colvin/Crable
Samuel/Wheatley
Gay/Wilhite
Andrews/Sanders
Stallworth/CJ Jones
K.Brady/Spach
Wilson/Lynch
Eckel/Jordan

While its nice to get younger/cheaper(I think some of these cuts should leave $$ to resign guys like Vince to long term deals) there is no arguement that we LOST A TON OF TALENT this year.

 

[DaBruinz]

The number is very likely to decrease in the next couple of days, or after Faulk returns.

I think that its more likely that Morris, Jones, Ventrone or Aiken are liable to get cut in the next few days than it is for Guyton, Wilhite or the other rookies to get cut.

 

[Joker]

we lost a TON of talent???using THAT table above???

uh...we lost Samuel...I'll give you that

Seau is 39, Colvin just got cut, Gay has been an injured 4th DB for the most part , Stallworth became almost invisible by last season's end.

Andrews,Eckel,K. Brady????????

guess I'm gonna stick to glass half full...you should check your glass, it looks almost empty

 

[Deus Irae]

I think that its more likely that Morris, Jones, Ventrone or Aiken are liable to get cut in the next few days than it is for Guyton, Wilhite or the other rookies to get cut.

Could be, although I'll stay with the idea of at least one more rookie getting the axe. I don't have a firm grasp on Belioli's thinking about the bottom of this order. I'm figuring on at least 3 players getting axed to bring in/back Faulk, Seau and a CB. An OL addition won't shock me, either.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Even with all the youth we still have great experience and talent in the middle ... except for Mayo' youth which could fool the league, the entire middle on both sides is very strong.

 

[DaBruinz]

For this point of the discussion I will be a "glass half empty" guy. Having that many rookies make the team means only one thing.....we are very thin talent wise!! In the last few years it would have been inconcievable for 2 rookies to be STARTING on a BB defense. I suggest that their first 2 picks were NEED picks(and may pan out that way)as their FA colleagues couldnt beat em out(Hobson/Mayo, Wheatley/Bryant, Wilhite/Webster). What does this mean??
I would say that there wasnt a single player from last years roster who lost their job to a rookie, right? We lost a large number of free agents/salary cap cuts and the free agents we replaced them with either were outplayed or were futher salary cap casualties. To me this inbalance falls on the management not recognizing the value of our FAs compared to the ones available elsewhere. How many FAs we signed in the offseason actually made the team??
Guys lost/replacements

Seau/Mayo
Colvin/Crable
Samuel/Wheatley
Gay/Wilhite
Andrews/Sanders
Stallworth/CJ Jones
K.Brady/Spach
Eckel/Jordan

While its nice to get younger/cheaper(I think some of these cuts should leave $$ to resign guys like Vince to long term deals) there is no arguement that we LOST A TON OF TALENT this year.

1) Colvin couldn't pass a physical. That's why he was cut. He also was cut by the Texans. When 100% healthy, I'd agree with you

2) Andrews was replaced by Slater, not Lewis Sanders. I would say this is a push since Andrews basically took himself off the team with his legal issues.

3) Stallworth was replaced by Jackson, not CJ Jones. Stallworth was also the one who wrote himself out of the offense by the end of last year.

4) Spach finsihed last year on the roster. Not sure how you can say he is Kyle Brady's replacement.

5) Eckel to Jordan is an upgrade the last I looked. Do you think otherwise?

6) I'd say that Lewis Sanders replaced Gay and its unknown whether we lost talent there.


Yes, the Patriots lost talent. But they replaced quite a bit of it. The major imbalance would be Samuel to Wheatley. That's really the only place I see a question mark.

 

[DaBruinz]

Could be, although I'll stay with the idea of at least one more rookie getting the axe. I don't have a firm grasp on Belioli's thinking about the bottom of this order. I'm figuring on at least 3 players getting axed to bring in/back Faulk, Seau and a CB. An OL addition won't shock me, either.

I think that the Pats kept Morris because Faulk was being suspended.

I agree that there will probably be another OL addition. Willie Anderson would instantly upgrade the RG spot and the RT spot.

I wouldn't be surprised at a CB like Law or O'Neal, but I am not holding my breath over it either.

 

[PatsFan37]

For this point of the discussion I will be a "glass half empty" guy.

Wow, on sunny days do you bore everyone with talk on the ozone layer? I mean, really. If you've been paying attention at all, this many rookies made the team because they're good. Mayo, obviously. Wheatley looks great. But those are the #1 and #2 picks, they should stick. The 2 #3's, Crable and O'Connell, should stick on draft status alone. It's a rare team that cuts players taken that high, but you know, they both looked pretty good as well.

So why keep all four of those? Because they had 4 high draft picks this year. That's why. Not because the sun went behind a cloud.

What about Wilhite? Did you watch the 4th preseason game? He looked terrific. Would he have been washed out in a numbers game if they had good corners? No, Richardson got washed, Bryant got washed. Wilhite is the real deal -- you watch.

How about Guyton? Are you going to tell me he barely made the team? Another great find.

When vets beat out rookies, your cap is higher and your future is lower. When rookies beat out vets, you're in much better shape for the future. With a team considered one of the oldest teams in football, how can you possibly hope that rookies will be cut in favor of older vets?

Let Mangini load up for one year. Belichick plans for the future.

This team just got younger and faster on defense. That's a fact.

Now you're going to tell me that I'm a blind homer. Wrong again. The Oline has real problems and no good solutions until Neal is off PUP. They should have drafted or signed better depth when it was available. Bryant was a disappointment, not the first time the FO has screwed up a vet CB signing. This time, at least, they were smart enough not to take him into the season. But I believe by the end of the year, with three fast DBs and three solid vet DBs, they'll be fine.

 

[jeffbiologist]

1) Colvin couldn't pass a physical. That's why he was cut. He also was cut by the Texans. When 100% healthy, I'd agree with you

2) Andrews was replaced by Slater, not Lewis Sanders. I would say this is a push since Andrews basically took himself off the team with his legal issues.

3) Stallworth was replaced by Jackson, not CJ Jones. Stallworth was also the one who wrote himself out of the offense by the end of last year.

4) Spach finsihed last year on the roster. Not sure how you can say he is Kyle Brady's replacement.

5) Eckel to Jordan is an upgrade the last I looked. Do you think otherwise?

6) I'd say that Lewis Sanders replaced Gay and its unknown whether we lost talent there.


Yes, the Patriots lost talent. But they replaced quite a bit of it. The major imbalance would be Samuel to Wheatley. That's really the only place I see a question mark.

In a BB defense I think a 39 yr old former all pro LB has more TALENT(knowing the system and being able to play it) than a first round pick. The Samuel comparison is obvious. To start the season, Colvin had a HUGE amount of talent over Crable. I will accept the Andrews/Slater arguement and you were also right on the Jordan/Eckel but I would have thought that was more obvious. I think Gay would have had more value in our system simply because he knew it having been here(and what was their respective cap numbers??). Jackson was on the roster last year, CJ Jones wasnt so I think that is a fair comparison. Stupar was the 3rd TE behind Brady, so I guess I should have said Brady/Thomas?? There are several other STers swapped out as well, but the overall loss of TALENT I thought was obvious.

 

[PatsFan24]

SEVEN rookies made the 53.

That is simply amazing to me.

(Mayo, Crable, Wheately, Wilhite, Slater, Guyton, O'Connell)

that is rare but this team needs some youth so it is prob a good idea

 

[patchick]

Having that many rookies make the team means only one thing.....we are very thin talent wise!!
...
I would say that there wasnt a single player from last years roster who lost their job to a rookie, right?

Put those two facts together and you get a different conclusion: that there was a ton of room for rookies this year because we're not carrying any young players from the 2007 draft...and furthermore, that was by design since this year's draft was so, so much stronger. In fact, Mayo, Crable and Slater were all drafted with picks pushed forward from 2007:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=108184

We lost a large number of free agents/salary cap cuts and the free agents we replaced them with either were outplayed or were futher salary cap casualties. To me this inbalance falls on the management not recognizing the value of our FAs compared to the ones available elsewhere. How many FAs we signed in the offseason actually made the team??
Guys lost/replacements

Seau/Mayo
Colvin/Crable
Samuel/Wheatley
Gay/Wilhite
Andrews/Sanders
Stallworth/CJ Jones
K.Brady/Spach
Wilson/Lynch
Eckel/Jordan

While its nice to get younger/cheaper(I think some of these cuts should leave $$ to resign guys like Vince to long term deals) there is no arguement that we LOST A TON OF TALENT this year.

Huh? Jeff, your own list contradicts your words! A bunch of those "big FA losses" you cite are sitting out there without jobs, waiting for a phone call (Colvin, Seau, Andrews, K. Brady, Eckel). Some of them are far younger and less experienced than their replacements (Eckel, Andrews, Wilson). And many of the replacements look like clear upgrades. The only possible fits for your argument:

Gay-->Wilhite: TBD, but not a huge step down
Stallworth-->CJ Jones: come now, that's not the real exchange. Jones is a fringe ST guy who's likely to disappear any day now. Stallworth's role as 4th receiver (yes, 4th by the end of the year) looks to go to Chad Jackson.
Samuel-->Wheatley: Yep, we lost Samuel. Yep. What more is there to say? That's one player who fits your thesis of a roster-wide denudement of quality veterans. And the rookie we drafted to take his spot looks pretty darned good.

 

[Joker]

yeah Patchick...I just don't see his logic at all...I think that glass has a hole in the bottom of it

 

[DaBruinz]

In a BB defense I think a 39 yr old former all pro LB has more TALENT(knowing the system and being able to play it) than a first round pick. The Samuel comparison is obvious. To start the season, Colvin had a HUGE amount of talent over Crable. I will accept the Andrews/Slater arguement and you were also right on the Jordan/Eckel but I would have thought that was more obvious. I think Gay would have had more value in our system simply because he knew it having been here(and what was their respective cap numbers??). Jackson was on the roster last year, CJ Jones wasnt so I think that is a fair comparison. Stupar was the 3rd TE behind Brady, so I guess I should have said Brady/Thomas?? There are several other STers swapped out as well, but the overall loss of TALENT I thought was obvious.

In a BB defense, if the 39 year old had more talent, he'd be on the team and starting in place of the 1st round pick.

You can't compare the Colvin who started the year last year to Crable because that is not the Colvin we would have gotten this year.

Did you watch Gay play last year? I did because I've liked the kid. And I was astonished at how poorly he played. People want to talk about Cassel's "regression". Look at Gay. Both he and Eugene Wilson lost playing time to Meriweather and James Sanders.

You didn't say Stupar. You said Spach. Spach was on the team last year when K. Brady was injured/left the team. Spach filled in admirably. There were some of us who were very surprised that the Pats didn't carry him on the SB roster. Especially with K. Brady's poor play.

Jackson was on the PUP to start the year and was a non-factor as he continued to rehab from his knee injury. Stallworth played his way off the field and off the team. Much the way Gabriel did. It was disappointing to say the least. I don't see how comparing a guy who started out as the 2nd WR and ended up being the 4th at the end of the year can be compared to a guy who is the 7th or 8th WR on the team currently.

I think that you are exaggerating the loss of talent, in all honesty.

 

[jeffbiologist]

Wow, on sunny days do you bore everyone with talk on the ozone layer? I mean, really. If you've been paying attention at all, this many rookies made the team because they're good. Mayo, obviously. Wheatley looks great. But those are the #1 and #2 picks, they should stick. The 2 #3's, Crable and O'Connell, should stick on draft status alone. It's a rare team that cuts players taken that high, but you know, they both looked pretty good as well.

So why keep all four of those? Because they had 4 high draft picks this year. That's why. Not because the sun went behind a cloud.

What about Wilhite? Did you watch the 4th preseason game? He looked terrific. Would he have been washed out in a numbers game if they had good corners? No, Richardson got washed, Bryant got washed. Wilhite is the real deal -- you watch.

How about Guyton? Are you going to tell me he barely made the team? Another great find.

When vets beat out rookies, your cap is higher and your future is lower. When rookies beat out vets, you're in much better shape for the future. With a team considered one of the oldest teams in football, how can you possibly hope that rookies will be cut in favor of older vets?

Let Mangini load up for one year. Belichick plans for the future.

This team just got younger and faster on defense. That's a fact.

Now you're going to tell me that I'm a blind homer. Wrong again. The Oline has real problems and no good solutions until Neal is off PUP. They should have drafted or signed better depth when it was available. Bryant was a disappointment, not the first time the FO has screwed up a vet CB signing. This time, at least, they were smart enough not to take him into the season. But I believe by the end of the year, with three fast DBs and three solid vet DBs, they'll be fine.

Hey, you cant have it both ways!! Last year only 1 draft pick made the team and no rookies start....and we go 16-0....or did you forget?? We are NOT an "old" team, that is just the talking heads saying that we a few old players. Our average age is in the middle of the pack in the league. There are only 13 players still on the team from the last super bowl winner by the way.

Wilfork,TB, Light,Koppen, Seymour, Warren, Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, Paxton, Faulk, Green and Watson.

We lost ALOT of talent since the beginning of the season last year. I think we brought in alot of redundancy for competition for some spots(CB,ILB) but didnt for others(namely the OL). In every decision we chose to keep a rookie instead of the vet FA, every one! Now some were warrented for sure, and others may have been salary cap related.....but the fact that we lost so many guys from last year and basically replaced them ALL with rookies, I dont like it. That "balance" we like to keep with this team was just tipped, and I will be looking for some further roster shifts to more accurately reflect the use of rookies on a veteran team like ours. There should be NO WAY that more rookies make this team over alot of others with "less talent".

 

[spacecrime]

Make it nine - BJGE

??? He was cut.