Pats @ Bucs preseason game 2

[Box_O_Rocks]

KO: Touchback. Lot's of kids getting a test drive on the coverage team: Slater, Ventrone, Crable, Green-Ellis, Bo Ruud. Vets I saw: Morris, Izzo, Alexander, Jimoh.

1st defensive series.

1st and 10: Pats base 3-4. Bucs run a FB lead up the middle, Vince was doubled, Tedy plugs up the FB and Mayo fills behind Vince, but Ty pursuing the play gets sealed inside by the RT, which allows the RB bouncing off the plug to find a new rush lane. Vrabes pursuing down the line, throws the TE off and turns the RB back inside where Vince fighting back off the double-team trips the RB just before Spann wraps him high to finish the play. 6 yds.

2nd and 4: Pats base 3-4. Bucs run another FB lead at LT. Sey and Vince are driven off the line 3 yds. Woods sets the edge on the FB, turning the play inside where Vince fights through the Center's block to grab the RB's ankles, Ty cleans up. 3 yds.

3rd and 1: Pats base 3-4. Bucs play fake into the line and run an end-around from the slot. I'm not sure who has what call, but someone in the secondary should have been yelling to watch the slot receiver's reverse - Meriweather was deep center field and seemed really slow to react to the reverse. Woods was sealed by a nice block by the FB, he was fooled by the fake inside the same as everyone else, if anything he was the first to read it, but a nice bounce outside by the FB off the play fake set up the seal block. 16 yds.

1st and 10: Pats base 3-4. Bucs run a FB lead behind RG. Sey is doubled on the backside. Vince is moved left by the C. Ty gets tripled by the RT/TE/FB, leaving Bru free to burrow through the pile-up for the tackle. 3 yds.

2nd and 7: Pats base 3-4. Bucs keep 6 in to block 4, Griese fired that pass right on 3-mississippi. The FB ran a 2 yd Out to the flat, picking up 2 yds after the catch. Woods in a zone, made up ground quickly to hold him to a 5 yd gain.

3rd and 3: Pats base 3-4. Bucs WR runs a 4yd stop (or smash route as Sterling motormush calls it) along the sideline for the first. Hobbs was outside zone over the WR and under the slot receiver with Meriweather deep half. Woods was over the slot receiver, walled him outside, jammed him, and set-up in a short zone - looked good. The Bucs kept 5 in to block 3, with a 6th chipping Ty before releasing.

1st and 10: Pats base 3-4. Bucs send 5 into the pattern, Griese hits the LRB on an Out. Mayo makes up ground quickly to limit YAC. I think a case can be made for a hold on Seymour - oh well. 7 yds.

2nd and 3: Pats base 3-4. Bucs run it behind the right side. Ty, Vrabes, and Tedy run a stunt (backed up by Spann) with Ty driving the RT outside to create an edge, Tedy slanting outside to pull the RG outside, and Vrabes filling behind them. He met the RB 2 yds deep in the backfield, but got juked out of his socks. Spann was there to turn the RB back inside at the LOS and make the tackle as the RB fell forward for the 1st. Nice effort by the foursome.

1st and 10: Pats base 3-4. Bucs set up for a FB lead inside, I'm not sure if this was a designed play or a QB/WR read, but the LWR runs a 6 yd stop and Griese turns inside as if to hand-off then turns back and hits him. Hobbs comes up quick and drags him down. Hobbs was 8 yds off the LOS playing soft - Meriweather was almost in the box on that side so my guess is a QB/WR read to take advantage of Hobbs needing to play deep to keep the play in front of him. 8 yds.

2nd and 2: Pats base 3-4. Ty stoned the RT while Bru and Mayo plugged inside forcing the RB to go outside, where Vrabel knocked 81 on his can - the kid's either a small TE or large WR and he stood no chance. Vrabes got the first hit on the RB, but Ty joined him to help spin down the RB. No gain.

3rd and 2: Pats 3-3 Nickel, Woods/Bru out, Alexander/Lynch in. Bucs in shotgun. Griese looks deep and dumps off a low ball to Hilliard just across the line to gain.

1st and 10: Pats base 3-4. Bucs keep 7 in to block 3. RB flares into the flat at the LOS, Vrabes forces him out after 3 yds.

2nd and 7: Pats base 3-4. Pats front 7 was owned by the Bucs, one-on-one blocking gave the RB his lane behind RG (right at Mayo) forcing Meriweather to make the stop at the line to gain. 7 yds.

1st and 10: Pats base 3-4. Bucs run it inside at LG, Vrabes scoots behind the line to make the tackle. 2 yds.

Meriweather limps off with the trainers. Lynch in.

2nd and 8: Pats base 3-4. Bucs kept 6 to block 4. Tedy stunted inside with Vince and pulled three blockers to give Vince a shot at the QB. Dump-off underneath for 5, Vrabes and Spann on the stop.

Lynch out, Dillard in.

3rd and 3: Pats base 3-4. Quick slant to the 1.

1st and goal: Pats in goal line set. Bucs punch it in.

Post Mortem:
- The Bucs Center has a "#75 is my wench" tattoo.
- Spann played well.
- Woods & Meriweather played decently.
- Bryant was challenged once on a 2 yd low and away pitch.
- Hobbs appeared to be the security blanket on the side with Woods, Meriweather, and Mayo.
- Mayo is still reading and slow reacting, but his speed makes a difference - he needs to add strength.

 

[Deus Irae]

- Hobbs appeared to be the security blanket on the side with Woods, Meriweather, and Mayo.

A lot of people were complaining about Hobbs, so could you please explain what you mean by this?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

A lot of people were complaining about Hobbs, so could you please explain what you mean by this?

You mean the suicide watch in the game thread? :snob:

Hobbs played at RCB (from the defense's perspective).
Woods played ROLB.
Mayo and Bru switch sides, but Mayo seemed to appear in the picture a lot on passes to the defensive right side.
Meriweather and Spann did not appear to switch off on that drive (that I saw), Meriweather, and later Dillard, showed up on the right side whenever the camera shot wasn't being used to count someone's nose hairs.

Woods, Mayo, and Meriweather were the three "starting" players with the least amount of playing time. Spann doesn't have much either, but he's been in the NE system much longer than Meriweather.

Hobbs did draw some criticism in the game discussion thread. I didn't see much basis for it, and wonder even more how valid the complaints are in light of his "elder" statesman role amongst the youngsters. Most likely he wasn't being asked to compensate for their inexperience...then again, it's been done before.

We now return you to your previously scheduled hysteria, already in progress.

 

[RayClay]

Posters would prefer all cornerbacks to play as tight as possible at the line to prevent those 5 yard passes allowing only touchdowns.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

http://www.metrobostonnews.com/us/article/2008/08/18/07/3718-66/index.xml

10 Things We Learned Last Night

Here, in no particular order, are 10 things we learned about the Patriots in last night’s 27-10 loss to the Bucs in Tampa:

1. Preseason football is a funny thing. Anyone remember last year’s Week 2 preseason game? A 27-24 loss against the Titans at Gillette Stadium. The Tennessee pass rush, led by Kyle Vanden Bosch, battered Tom Brady, and the New England offense struggled without Randy Moss and Laurence Maroney. Missing some key components, the Patriots’ offense struggled to put points on the board on the way to their second straight preseason loss. Then, they went out during the regular season and vaporized the opposition. So last night, they were missing some key components — including Brady, who reportedly stayed home because of a sore foot, and struggled to put points on the board against Tampa, posting their second straight preseason loss. Some will shift into hyperbolic overdrive, wondering aloud about the very future of the Patriots. And there are things that are still question marks that we don’t know when or if they will be resolved before Opening Day, like the health of the left tackle, right guard or the overall depth in the secondary. But don’t make too much of things. It’s only preseason. History has shown us that different teams take different things out of the preseason, and New England is rarely interested in wins and losses at this time of the year. This year is no different.

 

[Shockt327]

I got some questions for ya...

1st and 10: Pats base 3-4. Bucs run a FB lead up the middle, Vince was doubled, Tedy plugs up the FB and Mayo fills behind Vince, but Ty pursuing the play gets sealed inside by the RT, which allows the RB bouncing off the plug to find a new rush lane. Vrabes pursuing down the line, throws the TE off and turns the RB back inside where Vince fighting back off the double-team trips the RB just before Spann wraps him high to finish the play. 6 yds.

I though both Bruschi and Vrabel looked good on this play. But what about Spann? After Bruschi met the FB in the hole, Graham tried to turn the corner on Vrabel but was forced back inside...isn't it the job of the safety to clean up on this play? Seems like Spann was too late (about 7 yards too late).

2nd and 7: Pats base 3-4. Bucs keep 6 in to block 4, Griese fired that pass right on 3-mississippi. The FB ran a 2 yd Out to the flat, picking up 2 yds after the catch. Woods in a zone, made up ground quickly to hold him to a 5 yd gain.

The Pats seemed to be in a coverage with Hobbs 10 yards back on a receiver. On that play is Woods also responsible for defending the passing lane to the WR that Hobbs was covering? Or is he just responsible for the flat?

3rd and 3: Pats base 3-4. Bucs WR runs a 4yd stop (or smash route as Sterling motormush calls it) along the sideline for the first. Hobbs was outside zone over the WR and under the slot receiver with Meriweather deep half. Woods was over the slot receiver, walled him outside, jammed him, and set-up in a short zone - looked good. The Bucs kept 5 in to block 3, with a 6th chipping Ty before releasing.

How often do the Pats use just a 3 man rush in the regular season?

1st and 10: Pats base 3-4. Bucs keep 7 in to block 3. RB flares into the flat at the LOS, Vrabes forces him out after 3 yds.

Yeah, another 3 man rush with what seemed like all four DBs playing deep and all four LBs in a zone underneath. Do you think we'll see more of this during the regular season?

3rd and 3: Pats base 3-4. Quick slant to the 1.

Isn't it Dillard's responsibility to guard against that slant? Seems like he didn't react till the ball was already is the WRs hands.

Oh and what did you think of Woods in pass coverage? It looked like they tried to pick on him a little bit.

 

[BradyManny]

Bumping this thread before I even read it, it was too far down on the page.

 

[BradyManny]

Post Mortem:
- The Bucs Center has a "#75 is my wench" tattoo.
- Spann played well.
- Woods & Meriweather played decently.
- Bryant was challenged once on a 2 yd low and away pitch.
- Hobbs appeared to be the security blanket on the side with Woods, Meriweather, and Mayo.
- Mayo is still reading and slow reacting, but his speed makes a difference - he needs to add strength.

Interesting point.

Just curious, side point - does anyone know why AD wasn't playing last nite?

Anyway, my question would be about ROLB v LOLB - in the Pats system, what is the difference between the two. The strongside of the offense can change, and we see Mayo and Bruschi swap sides when this happens, but we always see Vrabel line up on defensive left and AD - or in last nite's case - Woods, lining up defensive right.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I got some questions for ya...

I though both Bruschi and Vrabel looked good on this play. But what about Spann? After Bruschi met the FB in the hole, Graham tried to turn the corner on Vrabel but was forced back inside...isn't it the job of the safety to clean up on this play? Seems like Spann was too late (about 7 yards too late).

1st and 10 is both a passing down and a running down in the NFL, that's one of those compromises in the defense - if the LB's are reading run first, someone else should be guarding against the pass. In the regular season there would have been an extensive tendency work-up to incorporate into the game plan. Finally, a Safety making a stop after 7 yds is pretty much standard for a guy who starts 12-20 feet off the LOS - I have no complaint about Spann doing his job and cleaning up after the front seven missed.

The Pats seemed to be in a coverage with Hobbs 10 yards back on a receiver. On that play is Woods also responsible for defending the passing lane to the WR that Hobbs was covering? Or is he just responsible for the flat?

Woods was playing the underneath zone, the RB was his all the way. That said, he has a certain depth he's supposed to drop for his zone to narrow the passing lanes for the intermediate routes, the West Coast offense is designed to get the ball into a receiver's hands quickly, and give them a chance to run. West Coast offense FBs are receivers first, blockers second, Griese looked upfield and saw good coverage, he immediately turned and hit the FB short rather then hold the ball. Woods' coverage appeared good to me, but I'll repost your question on Patriots Planet and see what AllWorldTE can tell us.

How often do the Pats use just a 3 man rush in the regular season?

It's been done, but I can't give you a percentage - single digit would be my guess.

Yeah, another 3 man rush with what seemed like all four DBs playing deep and all four LBs in a zone underneath. Do you think we'll see more of this during the regular season?

Yes, but not regularly.

Isn't it Dillard's responsibility to guard against that slant? Seems like he didn't react till the ball was already is the WRs hands.

I'm not the best person to analyize coverages, I rely on AWTE over at Planet to get into detail - I'll ask him for you.

Oh and what did you think of Woods in pass coverage? It looked like they tried to pick on him a little bit.

Griese went to his left a lot on that drive, whether he was picking on one person I can't say. Woods would be the one I'd test, but Mayo also was over there on defense when Woods rushed. The gains to short passes on Vrabel's side seemed about the same, I thought Pierre played decently on that drive, I'll be looking for some of the other analytical minds to weigh in on him.

EDIT: Plan B, AllWorldTE is leaving for a week of Training Camp as his school's practices are starting, we'll have to see if Unoriginal or someone else can answer the coverage questions.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Interesting point.

Just curious, side point - does anyone know why AD wasn't playing last nite?

Anyway, my question would be about ROLB v LOLB - in the Pats system, what is the difference between the two. The strongside of the offense can change, and we see Mayo and Bruschi swap sides when this happens, but we always see Vrabel line up on defensive left and AD - or in last nite's case - Woods, lining up defensive right.

Strong side really doesn't apply to the Pats' OLBs, they try to be interchangeable. Adalius was suited up, I saw him on the sideline, probably a minor nick they decided to rest while giving Woods extensive first team work.

 

[BradyManny]

Strong side really doesn't apply to the Pats' OLBs, they try to be interchangeable. Adalius was suited up, I saw him on the sideline, probably a minor nick they decided to rest while giving Woods extensive first team work.

OK, cool - makes sense.

 

[unoriginal]

For those asking about coverages, the Pats played most of the night in a Cover 3. The basics of the Cover 3 are that 3 defensive backs fill the deep zones and allow no one - even receivers on the other side of the field - behind them. The 4th defensive back generally assumes coverage of a wide flat, and the linebackers cover the remaining flat, both hook/curl zones on the seams, and the "extra" pass defender (they often rushed 3) sits in the middle of the field.

A standard Cover 3 with the Stud taking a flat, most common coverage on the night:

    CB        FS        CB


SS        LB    LB    LB        LB

A Cover 3 Strong "Roll" with the CB jamming and 4 rushing, while the rest of the secondary rolls into deep coverage over top. (They did this a lot to Bryant and Wheatley, and away from Hobbs and Spann - which explains why so many outs and hitches were completed sequentially towards one side of the field, away from the jam)

    SS        FS        CB

CB        LB        LB        LB

Obviously you could also have coverages where a safety "robs" the seam passing lanes while OLBs take both flats... didn't notice many safeties in seam coverage, so to answer Shock's question earlier, it is unlikely the slant was Dillard's responsibility, that probably belonged to a linebacker.

At least, those were my impressions on the night.

EDIT: should note again these are just my impressions... I don't yet have a recording I can rewatch, may not get it either, we'll see

 

[PatsFan37]

Good stuff, as usual, Box. Many thanks!

 

[scout]

Thanks for the info, Box. I never get close to that detail in watching the game, plus, the commentators didn't give any player identification (Patriots at least) until the last part of the game.
In reading the comments from last night's game, a lot of vanilla defense, just an preseason game, etc, etc. What disturbed me was the missed tackles and the runner always going down 3-4 yards after the hit. My anxiety was heightened by the Superbowl losing running back commentator.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

For those asking about coverages, the Pats played most of the night in a Cover 3. The basics of the Cover 3 are that 3 defensive backs fill the deep zones and allow no one - even receivers on the other side of the field - behind them. The 4th defensive back generally assumes coverage of a wide flat, and the linebackers cover the remaining flat, both hook/curl zones on the seams, and the "extra" pass defender (they often rushed 3) sits in the middle of the field.

A standard Cover 3 with the Stud taking a flat, most common coverage on the night:

    CB        FS        CB


SS        LB    LB    LB        LB

A Cover 3 Strong "Roll" with the CB jamming and 4 rushing, while the rest of the secondary rolls into deep coverage over top. (They did this a lot to Bryant and Wheatley, and away from Hobbs and Spann - which explains why so many outs and hitches were completed sequentially towards one side of the field, away from the jam)

    SS        FS        CB

CB        LB        LB        LB

Obviously you could also have coverages where a safety "robs" the seam passing lanes while OLBs take both flats... didn't notice many safeties in seam coverage, so to answer Shock's question earlier, it is unlikely the slant was Dillard's responsibility, that probably belonged to a linebacker.

At least, those were my impressions on the night.

EDIT: should note again these are just my impressions... I don't yet have a recording I can rewatch, may not get it either, we'll see

Thankee kind sir. :rocker:

So as I read this, Hobbs' side was intended to be the softer side with the Pats taking away the #1 WR?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Planet's discussion thread: http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=36273

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

My anxiety was heightened by the Superbowl losing running back commentator.

LdT tears, irritating, but reassuring at the same time.

 

[BradyManny]

For those asking about coverages, the Pats played most of the night in a Cover 3. The basics of the Cover 3 are that 3 defensive backs fill the deep zones and allow no one - even receivers on the other side of the field - behind them. The 4th defensive back generally assumes coverage of a wide flat, and the linebackers cover the remaining flat, both hook/curl zones on the seams, and the "extra" pass defender (they often rushed 3) sits in the middle of the field.

A standard Cover 3 with the Stud taking a flat, most common coverage on the night:

    CB        FS        CB


SS        LB    LB    LB        LB

A Cover 3 Strong "Roll" with the CB jamming and 4 rushing, while the rest of the secondary rolls into deep coverage over top. (They did this a lot to Bryant and Wheatley, and away from Hobbs and Spann - which explains why so many outs and hitches were completed sequentially towards one side of the field, away from the jam)

    SS        FS        CB

CB        LB        LB        LB

Obviously you could also have coverages where a safety "robs" the seam passing lanes while OLBs take both flats... didn't notice many safeties in seam coverage, so to answer Shock's question earlier, it is unlikely the slant was Dillard's responsibility, that probably belonged to a linebacker.

At least, those were my impressions on the night.

EDIT: should note again these are just my impressions... I don't yet have a recording I can rewatch, may not get it either, we'll see

Great stuff unorginal. So what, if anything in the execution of their coverage on that first drive that led to Tampa Bay having success. Is it just as simple as the Cover 3 is designed to keep the plays in front of itself, and TB took what we gave them?

 

[unoriginal]

Thankee kind sir. :rocker:

So as I read this, Hobbs' side was intended to be the softer side with the Pats taking away the #1 WR?

Well, Hobbs has always played the softer/vanilla/straight coverage. With Asante on the other side, they rolled the so-called Cover 5 Trap (Cover 2 + Cover 3 option) that way, and when Chad Scott or some of the other corners were in the game, they'd roll the jam that way too. They're doing it again this year.

Does this mean Hobbs is a ***** corner who can't jam? Yeah, maybe. But he's also our best man corner and a good open field tackler, and its not like the coaches say "Ellis, please jump the hitch" and he voluntarily drifts back 10 yards. If he was doing that he'd be yanked.

This obviously is not directed at you, but other posters who ***** about Hobbs always letting in the underneath stuff.

I would say it's not certain the Pats are jamming the #1 receiver per sé. I think they just jam based on formation, or whoever their scouting report indicates sucks at getting off jams.

For example, the Pats may jam the receiver on the front side of an overload blitz, because their scouting indicates the QB's hot read is to that side. Disrupting the immediate timing to that side of the field so that the blitz can get there is worth the risk of ****ing up coverage; jamming on the backside is not, QB might wheel away and toss a fade.

 

[unoriginal]

Great stuff unorginal. So what, if anything in the execution of their coverage on that first drive that led to Tampa Bay having success. Is it just as simple as the Cover 3 is designed to keep the plays in front of itself, and TB took what we gave them?

Yes. The Cover 3 is weak on the seams and in one flat. You are asking your linebackers to get a lot of width to get into their coverages, especially on the flat. They read run first so its not like they can motor there at the snap of the ball.

Defense backs in the Cover 3, or in most any type of zone, float on the wide receiver's outside shoulder and watch their entire section of field, and if they're any good, the bordering zones (and if they're great, the QB's eyes).

This is why Tampa Bay completed a lot of bubbles, benches, and slants. CBs were on the outside shoulder and were often drifting deep, and the linebackers have to read run before they can drop into the seams. A quick slant is three steps by the wide receiver, then an speed cut inside at an angle determined by where the linebacker/safety is. Easy to complete if you can assume coverage presnap.

For similar reasons, the flat NOT covered by a defensive back is often open if the slant isn't, because the OLB covering it has the farthest distance to travel. So that opens up WR hitches, along with RB routes. In high school and college, you'll almost always see the Cover 3 OLB have his flat on the short side of the field for this reason, regardless of offensive strength.