Camp Battles: Update Preseason Game 2

[Metaphors]

Here is where we left off.

There are still 19 active and 8 inactive spots left after the fixed 26. Now have 7 active (Gaffney, O'Callaghan, Kaczur, Crable, Slater, Woods and Paxton) and 5 inactive (O'Connell, Yates, Guyton, Britt and LSmith) spots that still look solid. As for the remaining 15 spots:

You Say Goodbye and I Say Hello
Tanks for the memories! Tank moves to IR and I'm using that roster spot to get Jordan onto the gameday active 45.

Webster is missing way too much valuable practice time. LSanders is experiencing the perfect storm for claiming his spot. Not only is he getting valuable practice reps, he got to show his stuff in the Ravens game and with Tank going down, being a bigger corner now works to his advantage. Give him the dime DB role unless/until Webster can find his way back.

That likely leaves a single spot for Wilhite or Richardson. Check to Wilhite but this spot is fluid with both of them missing time.

PUP Tent
Looks like Neal isn't going to make it back for the beginning of the season. I'm going to give Welbourn his spot but not necessarily his starting role until he gets some preseason reps. Our good friend Gene has already retired so we should be safe there.

Hanging On
Morris, CJackson, Evans and Wright should have regular duties but they need preseason game reps to solidify their roles.

Hobson gets more time to show he belongs, but he should be a little nervous with some solid performances at LB behind him. Would like to see him getting more 1st half snaps in the next 2 preseason games.

Washington, Izzo and Alexander seem to be fighting for 2 special team spots. With Aiken hurt, I like Izzo's chances to stick. Also go with Washington for WR depth. Alexander will have to earn his share of LB reps against Hobson and hope to get in the regular ILB rotation.

My Advice is to Rent, Not Buy
Cassel is still getting the backup reps so he stays for now. He needs to show more to keep this spot, even with the injury to Gutierrez.

Hochstein has stuck around for a while thanks to his flexibility. He really can't afford missing time due to injury since his talent level may not be enough to reclaim his role.

Staking their Claim
Spann and Ventrone have solidified their roles at the backend of the roster. They need to keep up the excellent play since there may be pressure to fill other positions with these spots. Speaking of which...

Coming Up Fast
TE (2) and DL (6) are lighter than what you might expect. Pollard has done well but I really like what Stupar has done with his opportunities. In addition to Santonio, both Fafita and Kenny Smith have flashed some skills. Kenny was particularly active against the Ravens so he will be looking to build on that and claim a roster spot.

The LB play has generally been stellar and Redd hasn't disappointed. The interesting consideration with Redd is that although Guyton may be more NFL ready, Redd's measurables and the number of teams running the 3-4 may make it harder to slip him onto the practice squad. A nice problem to have.

QB (3): Brady, Cassel, O'Connell*
RB (5): Maroney, Faulk, Morris, Jordan, Evans
WR (5): Moss, Welker, Gaffney, CJackson, Washington
TE (2): Watson, DThomas
OL (9): Light, Mankins, Koppen, Welbourn, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Hochstein, Britt*, Yates*
DL (6): Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright, LSmith*
LB (8): Bruschi, Mayo, Vrabel, AThomas, Hobson, Crable, Woods, Guyton*
CB (5): Hobbs, Bryant, Wheatley, LSanders, Wilhite*
S (4): Harrison, JSanders, Meriweather, Spann*
ST (6): Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, Slater, Izzo, Ventrone*
PUP: Neal, Ross
* = Inactive

 

[italia44]

nicely done....easy to follow

Question:Why would they have all 5 rb's active?
Given Maroney and Evans for blocking and st's,
aren't Faulk,Morris and Jordan basically the same skill set?

I think you have to sit one of them and add another cb or ol.

 

[PatsFan37]

One quick comment: As long as he's not so badly injured that he'll miss multiple games, I don't think Hochstein is fighting for a roster spot. He has too much experience and versatility. Except in the superbowl, when they all looked pretty awful, he generally doesn't stand out in that way that makes you cringe.

 

[14thDragon]

Like it. But unless my counting skills have seriously deterioated I only counted 7 guys inactive, when we need 8.

Also, I am not sure about Wilhite. Unless he heals up, I am dropping him on IR and putting Redd back on the squad. That 9th LB vs 9th DB vs. 6th WR is the toughest decision coming out of camp. But it is gonna be an odd roster make-up this year which ever way it goes.

Also, I would add Ross to the PUP in week 1.

 

[JSn]

Can you take Dom Capers into consideration on this one? I suspect we drop one WR in favour of an extra LB or monster safety (if one turns up).

Our WR's are durable and everyone after Gaffney (with Aiken out) seems to be kind of... the same.

 

[Metaphors]

Question:Why would they have all 5 rb's active?
Given Maroney and Evans for blocking and st's,
aren't Faulk,Morris and Jordan basically the same skill set?

I think you have to sit one of them and add another cb or ol.

I hear you, but I don't think the Pats sign vets and then make them healthy gameday inactives. Others disagree with me but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Couple of considerations:
1) Pats have a lot of seemingly poor run defenses on the schedule. This may mean more work for the RBs and the Pats want to share the load and keep the unit fresh for the playoffs.

2) Faulk is getting older and still took a lot of snaps last year. May be time to reduce his workload a bit with Jordan.

3) This unit tends to get dinged so you may not have all 5 healthy at the same time very often.

7 active OL is pretty standard. 7 DBs should be enough with LSanders and Meriweather with position flexibility and Slater mucking in for emergencies. TE is light with only 2 (O'Callaghan and Vrabel filling situational roles), so that is where the extra RB is coming from.

 

[Metaphors]

One quick comment: As long as he's not so badly injured that he'll miss multiple games, I don't think Hochstein is fighting for a roster spot. He has too much experience and versatility. Except in the superbowl, when they all looked pretty awful, he generally doesn't stand out in that way that makes you cringe.

You are probably right unless Welbourn steps up and Yates can fill the C/G backup role. Then it becomes a numbers game and missing practice/game snaps is never a good thing for a good but not exceptional talent.

 

[JSn]

@ Metaphors: Are you not thinking Pollard has a shot?

 

[Metaphors]

Like it. But unless my counting skills have seriously deterioated I only counted 7 guys inactive, when we need 8.

Never fear...help has arrived.

Also, I am not sure about Wilhite. Unless he heals up, I am dropping him on IR and putting Redd back on the squad. That 9th LB vs 9th DB vs. 6th WR is the toughest decision coming out of camp. But it is gonna be an odd roster make-up this year which ever way it goes.

Yeah, this exercise is more for conversation than accuracy. Injuries and roster manipulation like you mention will determine those last few spots.

Also, I would add Ross to the PUP in week 1.

Done. Missed him since there isn't much to talk about at this point.

 

[Metaphors]

Can you take Dom Capers into consideration on this one? I suspect we drop one WR in favour of an extra LB or monster safety (if one turns up).

Our WR's are durable and everyone after Gaffney (with Aiken out) seems to be kind of... the same.

I really haven't but you are likely on the money with the suggestion that Capers will play a significant role in mapping out roles on the defense. Something like Guyton (if he continues his solid camp) playing the Don Davis combo LB/S role maybe? Did you have any ideas? This is the part of team-building I find really interesting.

 

[Metaphors]

@ Metaphors: Are you not thinking Pollard has a shot?

He absolutely has a shot. I just have a hard time fitting a 3rd TE on the active 45. If an active roster spot opened up, he would likely make it over Stupar or Spach. If there is only a backend roster spot available, I think it goes to one of the youngsters. At this point, I can't see any room for a 3rd TE anyway.

 

[JSn]

I really haven't but you are likely on the money with the suggestion that Capers will play a significant role in mapping out roles on the defense. Something like Guyton (if he continues his solid camp) playing the Don Davis combo LB/S role maybe? Did you have any ideas? This is the part of team-building I find really interesting.

Hard to know about Guyton as a hybrid, but maybe. From the very little info we really have, I'd see Guyton in a sitch role and expanding that to a rotational role pretty quickly. And as for roster analysis, I'd see him winning a spot away from the offense.

Standing way back and tending to view the game more psychologically, I sort of imagine this:

Last year's O remaining largely intact, with a potentially fearsome Running game (I'd have all 5 active every game), we still are well able to put up a lot of points. That means oppositions have to spend a lot of time in the air, which should be less worrisome for them from a CB/S view with our losses there. Start scaring QB's into bad throws and more ground game than last year is what I fully expect is being/has been discussed in team concept meetings.

So yeah, give me a Guyton on D over a Jones on O any day.

 

[mgteich]

Not much to argue with
1) I like Thomas as a 7th DL instead of a Ventrone as the 10th DB.
2) I like a 3rd TE instead of a 9th OL since we have two more OL's available from PUP later in the year. We don't need two inactive OL's.
3) Alexander is better than Guyton on St's and in coverage.

Here is where we left off.

There are still 19 active and 8 inactive spots left after the fixed 26. Now have 7 active (Gaffney, O'Callaghan, Kaczur, Crable, Slater, Woods and Paxton) and 5 inactive (O'Connell, Yates, Guyton, Britt and LSmith) spots that still look solid. As for the remaining 15 spots:

You Say Goodbye and I Say Hello
Tanks for the memories! Tank moves to IR and I'm using that roster spot to get Jordan onto the gameday active 45.

Webster is missing way too much valuable practice time. LSanders is experiencing the perfect storm for claiming his spot. Not only is he getting valuable practice reps, he got to show his stuff in the Ravens game and with Tank going down, being a bigger corner now works to his advantage. Give him the dime DB role unless/until Webster can find his way back.

That likely leaves a single spot for Wilhite or Richardson. Check to Wilhite but this spot is fluid with both of them missing time.

PUP Tent
Looks like Neal isn't going to make it back for the beginning of the season. I'm going to give Welbourn his spot but not necessarily his starting role until he gets some preseason reps. Our good friend Gene has already retired so we should be safe there.

Hanging On
Morris, CJackson, Evans and Wright should have regular duties but they need preseason game reps to solidify their roles.

Hobson gets more time to show he belongs, but he should be a little nervous with some solid performances at LB behind him. Would like to see him getting more 1st half snaps in the next 2 preseason games.

Washington, Izzo and Alexander seem to be fighting for 2 special team spots. With Aiken hurt, I like Izzo's chances to stick. Also go with Washington for WR depth. Alexander will have to earn his share of LB reps against Hobson and hope to get in the regular ILB rotation.

My Advice is to Rent, Not Buy
Cassel is still getting the backup reps so he stays for now. He needs to show more to keep this spot, even with the injury to Gutierrez.

Hochstein has stuck around for a while thanks to his flexibility. He really can't afford missing time due to injury since his talent level may not be enough to reclaim his role.

Staking their Claim
Spann and Ventrone have solidified their roles at the backend of the roster. They need to keep up the excellent play since there may be pressure to fill other positions with these spots. Speaking of which...

Coming Up Fast
TE (2) and DL (6) are lighter than what you might expect. Pollard has done well but I really like what Stupar has done with his opportunities. In addition to Santonio, both Fafita and Kenny Smith have flashed some skills. Kenny was particularly active against the Ravens so he will be looking to build on that and claim a roster spot.

The LB play has generally been stellar and Redd hasn't disappointed. The interesting consideration with Redd is that although Guyton may be more NFL ready, Redd's measurables and the number of teams running the 3-4 may make it harder to slip him onto the practice squad. A nice problem to have.

QB (3): Brady, Cassel, O'Connell*
RB (5): Maroney, Faulk, Morris, Jordan, Evans
WR (5): Moss, Welker, Gaffney, CJackson, Washington
TE (2): Watson, DThomas
OL (9): Light, Mankins, Koppen, Welbourn, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Hochstein, Britt*, Yates*
DL (6): Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Wright, LSmith*
LB (8): Bruschi, Mayo, Vrabel, AThomas, Hobson, Crable, Woods, Guyton*
CB (5): Hobbs, Bryant, Wheatley, LSanders, Wilhite*
S (4): Harrison, JSanders, Meriweather, Spann*
ST (6): Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, Slater, Izzo, Ventrone*
PUP: Neal, Ross
* = Inactive

 

[Metaphors]

Not much to argue with
1) I like Thomas as a 7th DL instead of a Ventrone as the 10th DB.
2) I like a 3rd TE instead of a 9th OL since we have two more OL's available from PUP later in the year. We don't need two inactive OL's.
3) Alexander is better than Guyton on St's and in coverage.

Agree with your thoughts on 7th DL and will be watching for someone to force their way onto the roster. I'm thinking one of Santonio, Fafita and Kenny Smith should emerge at some point.

At TE, I knew bubkas about Stupar but thought he did fairly well against the Ravens. Pollard and Spach are fine but keeping one of them and cutting a quality player just doesn't feel right. With 3 more games before week 1, it is likely these type of decisions will be sorted out by injuries (though I'm knocking on wood for complete health).

You like Alexander more than I do. He seems to give 100% which I appreciate but he just doesn't seem instinctive as a LB. Maybe I need to reset my existing opinion of him and give him a clean slate for the next couple of games. I don't think the Pats keep 4 ILB active (especially with AD sliding inside occasionally) so I think his path to the roster is by displacing Hobson or Izzo. Alexander has been active for most games the last 2 years. If he is going "backwards" in relation to the other players on the team, why keep him? Additionally, why wouldn't he want to test out opportunities on other teams?

BTW, Guyton was a demon on ST at Tech. Don't know if that will translate to the NFL, but I wouldn't put Alexander over him just yet.

 

[Pats726]

I still think they will keep 3 TEs...especially if they are serious about more of a running game...whether they have one on PSqd or not..they need 3...would be very surprised if they ONLY kept 2...
Besides that, inactives..Ventrone, Guyton, Wilhite, SPann...those are 4 STers..they are needed in the game...not on the bench...No way do they keep all 5 backs active..I think one inactive will be kept for a RB...

 

[Metaphors]

No way do they keep all 5 backs active..I think one inactive will be kept for a RB...

Assuming you don't think Maroney will ever be inactive. Faulk is the 3rd down and no huddle back so can't see him inactive. Evans is a blocking back and ST guy so he doesn't "clash" with any of the other backs...meaning if he is inactive, someone other than a RB took his duties.

That leaves Morris and Jordan. Assuming everyone is healthy, do you really believe one of these guys is a healthy scratch? I would see them getting cut before that happens.

 

[JSn]

Assuming you don't think Maroney will ever be inactive. Faulk is the 3rd down and no huddle back so can't see him inactive. Evans is a blocking back and ST guy so he doesn't "clash" with any of the other backs...meaning if he is inactive, someone other than a RB took his duties.

That leaves Morris and Jordan. Assuming everyone is healthy, do you really believe one of these guys is a healthy scratch? I would see them getting cut before that happens.

Bingo. I think they all make the team and they all play active. Probably by mid-season we'll start seeing a rotation of RB's that will leave opposing D's feeling unsure, making them ripe for scoring against.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Assuming you don't think Maroney will ever be inactive. Faulk is the 3rd down and no huddle back so can't see him inactive. Evans is a blocking back and ST guy so he doesn't "clash" with any of the other backs...meaning if he is inactive, someone other than a RB took his duties.

That leaves Morris and Jordan. Assuming everyone is healthy, do you really believe one of these guys is a healthy scratch? I would see them getting cut before that happens.

All 5 on the roster allows dinged up RBs to heal rather than aggravating sprains and deep bruises. Depth.

 

[Pats726]

Assuming you don't think Maroney will ever be inactive. Faulk is the 3rd down and no huddle back so can't see him inactive. Evans is a blocking back and ST guy so he doesn't "clash" with any of the other backs...meaning if he is inactive, someone other than a RB took his duties.

That leaves Morris and Jordan. Assuming everyone is healthy, do you really believe one of these guys is a healthy scratch? I would see them getting cut before that happens.

Absolutely...there is no need for 5 RBs on a 45 game day roster...I would think i all are healthy...either Morris or Jordan sits..My thought is that one of the 4 backs will be injured or have some type of injury so they other 3 plus Evans will be active. If that is the case..they will be able to have more duravility with the backs instead of playing one who is a bit beatup and prone to further injury. What is the value of a 5th RB in a game versus another position...an ST player?? My guess is that the STer is far more valuable and will be in on more plays. If one has 2 OL/2 DL a QB and RB..that only leaves 2 other inactive slots.
That is if they keep 5...some think it's a Morris/Jordan situation....Also, I wonder how much that 5th RB would play on ST?? Morris would..noted as a tough STer..Jordan less so.

 

[Pats726]

Not much to argue with
1) I like Thomas as a 7th DL instead of a Ventrone as the 10th DB.
2) I like a 3rd TE instead of a 9th OL since we have two more OL's available from PUP later in the year. We don't need two inactive OL's.
3) Alexander is better than Guyton on St's and in coverage.

I have always liked the 7 DL..a 5 man rotation..but I think if it is either a 7th DL or Ventrone..that might be a tough decision..as he is very versatile..and might be more so than Slater. I do think the 3rd TE makes sense..historically BB's teams have almost always had 3 TEs...and doing so at the expense of a lineman is fine..the ONLY problem with that is if they only carry 8..and Light is not back..it leaves a bit less depth..only 2 possibly inactive plus 5 starters...meaning if there is another injury there is a shuffle. A bit thin at OL. I think Alexander is better on ST for now..more experience and he might be more in line to be a ST captain..ala Izzo. If they think he can be a true ILB backup..he's much better than Guyton for now and maybe into the future. That also might be a tough choice.
I think it is quite a stretch to suggest that a rook could be a Tank replacement..a hybrid. IN time maybe..but I think that is way too much to expect a rookie taking on that. He might have been a great ST player in college..but he'll need a bit of time to translate to the pros. I agree though..these last decisions will be tough...and how many might be dictated by injuries??