Pass receiving seperation and the lack of it

[PatsWickedPissah]

I refer folks here to the camp observations of the Dookfish over in the camp forum. In my view this is a mainstream forum issue. The DF explains why he thinks BB went after Lamont Jordan and has some somewhat unsettling observations about a couple young players.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=947791&postcount=36

P.S. Be warned. The Dookfish doesn't do paragraphs.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

I love it when football talk gets dirty!

The one knock on Lamont (in camp reports to date) has been his pass blocking/blitz pick-up, but I like the picture Dook's observations paint for another receiver working into the mix - this time from the backfield. Dook's two RB set with Faulk and Jordan certainly works with that approach, you have the option of keeping a TE in to block or Faulk. You could also work in two RB sets with Maroney and Morris, either of whom could stay in to block allowing the TE to release - and you could have some fun in the running game too.

 

[patsox23]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

annoying that there's no paragraphs (especially given how EASY it is to make them), but pretty interesting take. Clearly a CJ basher with a lot of declarative statements to the point of suggesting he has no shot to ever be good in the NFL, and I think Maroney is likely to catch more than 20 passes this year. He may round off his cuts, and Jordan/Faulk are clearly superior to LoMar in terms of pass-catching, but what I saw of him as a RECEIVER last year was a WEAPON, and I hope to see them take advantage of that even more this season.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

It's not bashing to state your conclusions from limited yet carefull observations. It's considered opinion, backed by personal carefull observation. I did not see any prognostications about NFL careers.

As to LoMo catching passes, the piscine one notes that his routes will be "of the swing and screen variety" which certainly matches how BB used him last year. The DookFish provides his insight as to why that is so.

For those of you attending camp, consider yourselves blessed if you get to see firsthand the RB blocking the LB one on one drills and the TE/RB vs LB pass catching drills cited in this thread. Very revealing. I saw the last drill and agree with the observations posted. I'd add that none of the LBs with the possible exception of a converted FA SS could seem to cover well. Watson & Pollard were the TEs who created the most space, especially Watson. It's not fair to ask a LB to cover Watson.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Clearly a CJ basher with a lot of declarative statements to the point of suggesting he has no shot to ever be good in the NFL, and I think Maroney is likely to catch more than 20 passes this year. He may round off his cuts, and Jordan/Faulk are clearly superior to LoMar in terms of pass-catching, but what I saw of him as a RECEIVER last year was a WEAPON, and I hope to see them take advantage of that even more this season.

Agree and said so in that thread. People don't exit the womb with separation skills (wow, that is a weird statement!). There are lots of lead backs that don't run downfield routes. Doesn't mean Maroney can't do it, just that he isn't asked to do it. No great surprise that aspect of his game is unrefined. CJack is almost certainly getting direction from coaches and fellow receivers on getting open. To say he is incapable of applying these skills is a bit much. If he doesn't, that says more about his dedication than any physical liability.

 

[Brownfan80]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Bummer news about Chad Jackson, I really hoped he'd catch on this season.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

It's not fair to ask a LB to cover Watson.

A significant challenge and one reason I've been happy to read about Spann taking S reps (sometimes with the 1's) - Watson isn't the only TE in this league who creates problems for linebackers.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

A significant challenge and one reason I've been happy to read about Spann taking S reps (sometimes with the 1's) - Watson isn't the only TE in this league who creates problems for linebackers.

But it still leaves the position of strong run blocking/pass protection TE unfilled. No roster is perfect.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

But it still leaves the position of strong run blocking/pass protection TE unfilled. No roster is perfect.

Yes, an area I have been unhappy with too. Thomas appeared to do well blocking as a rookie, I hope he gets back to practice soon so we can monitor his progress. For now, Spach and Stupar seem to be the best prospects for blocking TE. Spach was okay as a blocker at the end of last season, I could see him sticking as a blocker.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Yes, an area I have been unhappy with too. Thomas appeared to do well blocking as a rookie, I hope he gets back to practice soon so we can monitor his progress. For now, Spach and Stupar seem to be the best prospects for blocking TE. Spach was okay as a blocker at the end of last season, I could see him sticking as a blocker.

Problem is, Spach can't stick if Pollard sticks. I think that Thomas' injury is not foot related and he returns next week. If not, and he's "made of glass" then all bets are off.

 

[spacecrime]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Bummer news about Chad Jackson, I really hoped he'd catch on this season.

He's doomed.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Note to the impaired, that the spaceperson is being facietious.

 

[Brownfan80]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

He's doomed.

DOOOOOOOOOMED.



Domed.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Problem is, Spach can't stick if Pollard sticks. I think that Thomas' injury is not foot related and he returns next week. If not, and he's "made of glass" then all bets are off.

When trying to project the roster, I preferred to cut both and keep 5 RBs and 6 WRs - neither did enough for the team when compared to Jordan, Evans, or Aiken.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

When trying to project the roster, I preferred to cut both and keep 5 RBs and 6 WRs - neither did enough for the team when compared to Jordan, Evans, or Aiken.

Injuries aside, that's precisely what will happen.
Jordan - backs up 2 styles of RB Faulk and Morris; cannot cut this versitile guy
Evans - unique @ FB and a strong ST contributor
Aiken - ST demon who may actually displace my man Larry Izzo on STs; last resort WR backup

The aforementioned TEs are too one dimensional

P.S. Sorry for the bad Title spelling

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

P.S. Sorry for the bad Title spelling

1010101010

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

All due respect to Dookfish, one practice doesn't a camp or career make. Dookie is drawing a lot of conclusions on players based on one practice. Who knows if Maroney or Jackson were just having bad practices. Dookie did a good job breaking down what he/she saw, but took a little too much of a leap to say what happened in one practice defines the players.

As for Jackson, I never thought he was a deep threat to begin with. Why does he have to be? Isn't that what Moss is for. If Jackson can do consistently what he did in limited action over the middle of the field his rookie year, he is going to be a really good player.

I still don't get why people seem to think the Patriots absolutely need two or three deep threats. Prior to Moss, Brady has never actually had a deep threat to throw to. Branch and Givens did very well here and both were more like the player Dookie describes of Jackson (quick, great hands, good over the middle, but has problem getting separation down the field) than Moss ever was. If Jackson can fill in the Branch roll of the quick WR who can get the fast pass over the middle and get YAC, he was well worth his second round selection.

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

Thanks for the line to the piscine one, Mistah Pissah. Great stuff. I almost like the lack of paragraphs as it gives it the feel of the words of the prophet, written on the subway walls.

If these two TEs were healthy, I think they'd go with two. Given their health, I can't see it. That is, assuming Thomas gets back on the field at all. Interesting that Watson has all those 'secondary moves and quickness' to get open. I'd never thought of him as quick, so this is good to know.

While the comments about CJack are disappointing, not so much for Maroney, since it's not his primary role. It doesn't matter to me that CJack is young, this is his last chance. I agree that it can be taught and in college he could separate with pure speed from mediocre CBs, so he didn't need the Arts of Separation.

Jordan and Bryant look to be the surprise FA signings of the year. At least, until Jordan lets a rusher hit Brady. Then we won't like him so much.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

All due respect to Dookfish, one practice doesn't a camp or career make. Dookie is drawing a lot of conclusions on players based on one practice. Who knows if Maroney or Jackson were just having bad practices. Dookie did a good job breaking down what he/she saw, but took a little too much of a leap to say what happened in one practice defines the players.

As for Jackson, I never thought he was a deep threat to begin with. Why does he have to be? Isn't that what Moss is for. If Jackson can do consistently what he did in limited action over the middle of the field his rookie year, he is going to be a really good player.

I still don't get why people seem to think the Patriots absolutely need two or three deep threats. Prior to Moss, Brady has never actually had a deep threat to throw to. Branch and Givens did very well here and both were more like the player Dookie describes of Jackson (quick, great hands, good over the middle, but has problem getting separation down the field) than Moss ever was. If Jackson can fill in the Branch roll of the quick WR who can get the fast pass over the middle and get YAC, he was well worth his second round selection.

Givens was very good at using his body to create a window for Tommy's pass. As BB has said many times, there is more than one way for a receiver to create a throwing window - we'll just have to see if Chad can use his body to shield defenders away from the ball.

 

[Xzibit23]

Re: Pass Receiving Seperation & the Lack of It

The analysis of Chad Jackson seems awfully similar to that of Stallworth. Daunte's problem last year, and for much of his career, was an inability to create the downfield seperation needed, despite a high 40 time. Even the few times Brady threw a long ball his way the CB, whoever it was, was right there and at times even a step ahead. And thus, like the observations made of Jackson, Brady stopped looking his way because he wasn't open nearly as often as he should've been. How someone with amazing top speed can't create seperation is just one of those amazing phenomenon. Its alao why finding a viable deep threat is never as simple as finding the fastest WR out there, it just doesn't work that way.