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Can Guyton beat out Izzo for the ST demon spot on the roster?


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Based on observing LBs at Monday's practice, few of these guys showed any ability to play on regular downs, so they should be viewed as STers only. (Yes, it was only one practice, so add it to the body of evidence as you all see fit...!) For example, on pass rush drills, Izzo was pushed around pretty easily on *every* attempt. He made Eckel and Jordan look pretty good in pass protection. I doubt Izzo has the speed to contribute as a coverage LB. Guyton may have speed, but did not display any moves or agility. He was routinely contained. Actually, the one guy who looked good rushing the passer was Tank Williams. On several passes he was around his man, and in on Brady, (before deliberately peeling away around Brady). Woods seemed to be in coverage more than usual, or I didn't notice him rushing. (He made the play of the day picking off Cassel with a one-handed grab over his shoulder in traffic...took it to the house.) As for Alexander, from about 75 yards away I could hear BB chew him out ("C'mon, Eric!"). At least Alexander looked like he was trying to win the end-of-practice sprints. I should note that like Alexander, Crable got a tongue lashing or two as well. But as a rookie that is pretty much expected. Crable also got pulled aside a couple of times for what appeared to be meaningful instruction. Mayo looked strong and active. He's a player...



I have 6 players that will make the team because of their special teams contribution and the fact that they can play another position Evans, Aiken, Guyton, Woods, Washington, and Slater.

Izzo WAS a Pro Bowl Special Teamer. He isn't anymore. Woods led the ST in tackles. Izzo is too small to play ILB. He is 5' 10" 238 and ran at best a 4.6 when he started his career. Guyton is 6'3" 242 and runs a sub 4.5 (thats faster than nearly all but two WR's). Tank Williams is 6' 2" 225 and is now a backup ILB. I have both Alexander and Izzo on my cut list. Izzo just isn't good enough anymore to keep a specilaist as a special teamer only.
 
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I have 6 players that will make the team because of their special teams contribution and the fact that they can play another position Evans, Aiken, Guyton, Woods, Washington, and Slater.

Izzo WAS a Pro Bowl Special Teamer. He isn't anymore. Woods led the ST in tackles. Izzo is too small to play ILB. He is 5' 10" 238 and ran at best a 4.6 when he started his career. Guyton is 6'3" 242 and runs a sub 4.5 (thats faster than nearly all but two WR's). Tank Williams is 6' 2" 225 and is now a backup ILB. I have both Alexander and Izzo on my cut list. Izzo just isn't good enough anymore to keep a specilaist as a special teamer only.

Mark, good to hear from you and I hope that all is well. I'd wondered if Iz (a fav of mine) would be history last year, but I agree with your analysis above. Somehow, I think that BB has looked at what's happened at the end of the last couple seasons and has decided in a youth movement. A quality youth movement.
 
Based on observing LBs at Monday's practice, few of these guys showed any ability to play on regular downs, so they should be viewed as STers only. (Yes, it was only one practice, so add it to the body of evidence as you all see fit...!) For example, on pass rush drills, Izzo was pushed around pretty easily on *every* attempt. He made Eckel and Jordan look pretty good in pass protection. I doubt Izzo has the speed to contribute as a coverage LB. Guyton may have speed, but did not display any moves or agility. He was routinely contained. Actually, the one guy who looked good rushing the passer was Tank Williams. On several passes he was around his man, and in on Brady, (before deliberately peeling away around Brady). Woods seemed to be in coverage more than usual, or I didn't notice him rushing. (He made the play of the day picking off Cassel with a one-handed grab over his shoulder in traffic...took it to the house.) As for Alexander, from about 75 yards away I could hear BB chew him out ("C'mon, Eric!"). At least Alexander looked like he was trying to win the end-of-practice sprints. I should note that like Alexander, Crable got a tongue lashing or two as well. But as a rookie that is pretty much expected. Crable also got pulled aside a couple of times for what appeared to be meaningful instruction. Mayo looked strong and active. He's a player...

Great stuff. Post more, please.
 
I don't disagree in principle, but I think Sam Aiken IS a proven ST'er who can be counted on to make plays. The Pats targeted him at the beginning of the free agency period and signed him to a 2-year deal with a decent signing bonus, he's been holding down the contain role in camp, and he's just 28 vs. Izzo's 34. If it comes down to one or the other, my money's on Aiken.

No argument from me regarding Aikens or even the peoples choice, this years udfa Guyton - both look great to me. I also realize it is a numbers game - I just don't think Izzo's number is up, this year. He still is still a productive st'er quite worthy of keeping, period.
 
Care to provide some basis for your statement??

I prefer to look at the facts:

http://www.nfl.com/players/larryizzo/profile?id=IZZ474619

In 2006 his role shifted to being the contain guy (last guy) and he contributed a lot in that season and basically the same last year.

Kelly Washington, had a great year on "teams" he had 16 tackles and 5 solo and he is a gunner - Izzo had 16 tackles 11 solo. Alexandar had an awesome year, he was the team leader with 21 and 11 were solo.

Seems to me Izzo is still playing at a high level.

DO you really want to cut Izzo and hope someone else can be counted on?

I prefer to have ST'ers that can be counted on and you know you can count on Izzo to make plays.

Izzo stays.....

Check your facts! Izzo was 3rd on the team with 16 tackles and 11 solo. Woods led the team with 21 and 14 and Alexander was 2nd with 18 and 15 (which surprised me). At one time opposition coaches had to scheme and account for Izzo on special teams. In order for this LB corp to get younger and faster they need to keep some of these guys. The Patriots cut Justin Rogers last year and Dallas picked him up ... he had the same stats as Alexander and better than Izzo!

I have not been impressed with Alexander as a ILB and Izzo simply cannot play the position. Guyton has been used at both ILB and OLB. He played in the shadow of Phillip Wheeler at Georgia Tech. I think that Guyton makes the team because of his versatility and speed. We differ in our opinions ... thats OK.
 
Izzo is a one trick pony and has been around a long time.

Is this the year someone takes his roster spot?


I really, really hope so. It's past time to give youth, speed, size and talent a chance at LB/STs.

And he can take Alexander with him, too.
 
Check your facts! Izzo was 3rd on the team with 16 tackles and 11 solo. Woods led the team with 21 and 14 and Alexander was 2nd with 18 and 15 (which surprised me). At one time opposition coaches had to scheme and account for Izzo on special teams. In order for this LB corp to get younger and faster they need to keep some of these guys. The Patriots cut Justin Rogers last year and Dallas picked him up ... he had the same stats as Alexander and better than Izzo!

I have not been impressed with Alexander as a ILB and Izzo simply cannot play the position. Guyton has been used at both ILB and OLB. He played in the shadow of Phillip Wheeler at Georgia Tech. I think that Guyton makes the team because of his versatility and speed. We differ in our opinions ... thats OK.

I think that is what I said, he was third on the team - but he was no longer the gunner, playing a role staying back to be the last line of defense. He is a vital cog on special teams, time has not yet passed him buy.

We do AGREE though that Aikens and especially Guyton belong on this team. I have watched him in 4 practices and I like what I see after 10 practices of course.

I realize it is a 53 man roster and it is impossible to keep everyone, not easy at all thats for sure.
 
a) I would like to see the special teams unit become game-changers (think Buffalo)....
I'm thinking that those alleged game-changers haven't changed a whole lot of games for Buffalo in the last few years....
 
Guyton has been used at both ILB and OLB.
Guyton is a rookie. He hasn't been used anywhere yet. Izzo has been used at LB in regular season games and in the playoffs. Check your facts. :D
 
Mark, good to hear from you and I hope that all is well. I'd wondered if Iz (a fav of mine) would be history last year, but I agree with your analysis above. Somehow, I think that BB has looked at what's happened at the end of the last couple seasons and has decided in a youth movement. A quality youth movement.


If you look at the roster there are 17 players on it that are thirty years old or older. Most dynasties die, because the coaches get sentimental for their old veterans and then their is a forced massive exodus in a year or two and the team can't accommodate it, and still recover.

BB has done less of that than most but still age is catching up on the Pats. By 2010 there will have to be a lot of turnover of front line players. If BB decided to start making plans to turnover those 17 places within the next three years then 5 or 6 have to go this season. Can you name five 30 or older vets to cut?

Izzo, Pollard, Seau, Ross, Clement, Kenny Martin are all marginal players, that could yield to a youth movement, without much pain. But then the clump of the key players of the Pats Dynasty start showing up. Then there are Neal, Harrison, Bruschi, Webster who will need replacement by no later than the end of the next season. Followed by Faulk, Morris, Light, Hochstein, Vrabel, AD probably a year later.

Then Moss and Brady...
 
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Yes, and I do expect that this is Bruschi's last year and probably Harrison's as well; only a rash of injuries to their younger replacements (roster, draft, FA) would see them playing in 09, assuming they wanted to play. A guy like Light playing OT should however have a longer career than you project.

I do wonder if BB isn't a bit sentimental. I think that such an attitude cost us some developmental players last season when they got grabbed after the final cut. The good news is that early on, this year's draft and UFA class seems markedly superior to last year's. Vet FAs, not so much at all, exception being Jordan.
 
If you look at the roster there are 17 players on it that are thirty years old or older. Most dynasties die, because the coaches get sentimental for their old veterans and then their is a forced massive exodus in a year or two and the team can't accommodate it, and still recover.

BB has done less of that than most but still age is catching up on the Pats. By 2010 there will have to be a lot of turnover of front line players. If BB decided to start making plans to turnover those 17 places within the next three years then 5 or 6 have to go this season. Can you name five 30 or older vets to cut?

Izzo, Pollard, Seau, Ross, Clement, Kenny Martin are all marginal players, that could yield to a youth movement, without much pain. But then the clump of the key players of the Pats Dynasty start showing up. Then there are Neal, Harrison, Bruschi, Webster who will need replacement by no later than the end of the next season. Followed by Faulk, Morris, Light, Hochstein, Vrabel, AD probably a year later.

Then Moss and Brady...

You look at the roster situation and (rightly so) see an upcoming transition. I believe though that if you look across the league this is a natural situation for successful teams. Your team core gets old together and/or contracts expire and the team success drives up the price for players to the point where you can't keep the team intact.

The thing I like about Belichick is that he tends to have an ongoing transition plan, even in the good times. Assuming 2003 was the intended completion date of the original transition (and 2001 was a pleasant surprise), then the Pats are about to enter year 6 of their championship run. Barring a disaster, they are stacked for the next 2 years. That is 7 years of uninterrupted title contention. That is seriously sweet.

So who is under contract for the transition years (2010-11):
  • Koppen
  • Welker
  • Warren
  • AD
  • Mayo
  • Crable
  • Meriweather
  • Wheatley

Guys (IMO) who need to also be a part of that transition:
  • Wilfork - Absolutely must get a deal done, no question
  • Mankins - Same here, as long as the money isn't silly
  • Gostkowski - You don't want uncertain kicking game during a transition time

In an ideal world, Brady will also be part of this time on a new (and probably final) contract...but you can't be sure when Brady will want to move onto the next big thing in his life (especially if the Pats add another title or two).

If the Pats can keep the players above on the team through 2011 and if Brady still has the championship fire, the team still looks solid to me. So what needs to be done in the next 2 years to complete this transition:

1) Offensive tackle overhaul. Look for high draft picks to be used here in the next couple of years.

2) Continue the LB youth movement. Probably a mix of draft picks for gradual injection of youth and vets for stability.

3) 3-4 DE (even if Seymour re-signed). Not a pressing need but there are only so many of these type of guys on the planet. If one becomes available in the draft, look for the Pats to pounce.

4) QB future. Got 4 years to see if O'Connell is the guy. Keep bringing in developmental players and try to find another diamond in the rough.

Less pressing considerations include TE (can DThomas or Watson stay healthy enough to stick?) and CB (retain Hobbs or look for FA help?). Skill positions should be fine whether or not Maroney/CJack stay. Lots of candidates in draft and FA.

Assuming the Brady situation works out, I see a pretty healthy roster situation. The 2009 draft with an extra #2 and likely solid comp picks will be key making that transition a success.

The Colts, Cowboys and Chargers are all watching their championship clocks tick away. Their transition during this same timeframe is likely to be much trickier.
 
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