If you hate the trade, what's the other option?

[Fixit]

It appears that a lot of people here think they're a better GM than the guy who's brought the Sox two titles in the previous four seasons. Prove it.

Let me set the table for you:

Player keeps coming up with mysterious injuries when the opposition has someone nasty on the mound, most recently against the Yankees

Player never even twitched his bat on three straight pitches in a big spot against the Yankees, and most "in the know" now think that he was sending a message.

Player trashes team owner, and owner is offended yet still gracious in his response.

Player says team doesn't "deserve" him, among other things.

Player starts a fight in the dugout with a teammate.

Player assaults an old man because said old man can't get player additional tickets on short notice.

Most telling, team veterans tell management that the player just has to go.

To rid themselves, team trades player, a thoroughly unimpressive relief pitcher, a player who might crack a starting lineup some day, and $7M that no one cares about. In return, they get a younger player with comparable season stats, a proven track record, a better glove, and a non-cancerous attitude.

Sounds pretty good to me.

But, just for the sake of argument, what would you have done? And please don't give me the "But Manny would have played his ass off for the rest of the year!" argument, because we know it's not true. Manny's a great hitter, but he's never been a great player or the most motivated teammate.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

It appears that a lot of people here think they're a better GM than the guy who's brought the Sox two titles in the previous four seasons. Prove it.

Let me set the table for you:

Player keeps coming up with mysterious injuries when the opposition has someone nasty on the mound, most recently against the Yankees

Player never even twitched his bat on three straight pitches in a big spot against the Yankees, and most "in the know" now think that he was sending a message.

Player trashes team owner, and owner is offended yet still gracious in his response.

Player says team doesn't "deserve" him, among other things.

Player starts a fight in the dugout with a teammate.

Player assaults an old man because said old man can't get player additional tickets on short notice.

Most telling, team veterans tell management that the player just has to go.

To rid themselves, team trades player, a thoroughly unimpressive relief pitcher, a player who might crack a starting lineup some day, and $7M that no one cares about. In return, they get a younger player with comparable season stats, a proven track record, a better glove, and a non-cancerous attitude.

Sounds pretty good to me.

But, just for the sake of argument, what would you have done? And please don't give me the "But Manny would have played his ass off for the rest of the year!" argument, because we know it's not true. Manny's a great hitter, but he's never been a great player or the most motivated teammate.

I'm disappointed that the Sox felt pressured enough by Manny's behavior that they would willingly give up 3 players and $7 million for a downgrade in LF... I feel that they could've gotten some relief pitching as well for a very similar package of players, but as we've found out, they literally handed this thing in at the last minute.

I see this as more of a situation where the team will try to pick up the pieces and move on, not as a situation where the team got a key addition that should help the team win more games. In 2004, Theo traded a lame duck Nomar but got back sparkplug type players at the trade deadline; I strongly feel that this is not an equivalent situation. I guess this was just bound to be a lose lose situation for the Red Sox from the time Manny started faking knee injuries.

Also, the part of what you wrote that I put in bold... I'd like to know what you were referring to. Remember that we don't often get the whole story and that, unfortunately, many of the media who cover the Red Sox for us in Boston have personal agendas that don't necessarily include being objective and unbiased.

 

[Fixit]

Also, the part of what you wrote that I put in bold... I'd like to know what you were referring to. Remember that we don't often get the whole story and that, unfortunately, many of the media who cover the Red Sox for us in Boston have personal agendas that don't necessarily include being objective and unbiased.

Heard it on the radio today. I can't remember the source, but is it really that hard to believe? Boston reporters may have an agenda, but they don't tend to lie about something that's very easy to get embarrassed on.

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

Heard it on the radio today. I can't remember the source, but is it really that hard to believe? Boston reporters may have an agenda, but they don't tend to lie about something that's very easy to get embarrassed on.

you sure about that (Rams walk through)

 

[Fixit]

you sure about that (Rams walk through)

I don't think Tomase ever lied. He took some bad info and ran with it, investigating be damned, like a dummy.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

Heard it on the radio today. I can't remember the source, but is it really that hard to believe? Boston reporters may have an agenda, but they don't tend to lie about something that's very easy to get embarrassed on.

No, it's not that hard to believe. I'm still of the thinking that almost every story quoting unnamed sources should be taken with a huge grain of salt, especially when it's a story that can make this story black and white. The Red Sox would much much rather have themselves look like the helpless victim in this case, who had no choice but to trade a great player because of his disrespect for them, and this story supports that exact line of thinking, therefore I am very doubtful that we're getting the entire story.

I find it much more likely that there are shades of grey out there that make the organization look bad and Manny look like he's not entirely the one to be blamed for this situation... but the Sox, by releasing stories from unnamed sources, can manipulate what their fanbase is told about what happened.

That all being said, back on the original topic, I still feel the Sox were willing to be the "losers" of this deal to make it happen. They traded 3 players, 2 possible draft picks and cash for a guy who, even if he performs very well, will still be considered a side-grade at best. Hopefully, not having the 20m salary on the books for next season will help them hunt down some attractive free agents this winter.

 

[IcyPatriot]

They could have simply promised Manny he could be a FA at the end of the season. He would have played his butt off to earn a deal from somebody and we would have received the 2 good draft picks.

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

They could have simply promised Manny he could be a FA at the end of the season. He would have played his butt off to earn a deal from somebody and we would have received the 2 good draft picks.

Very good point, all he wanted was to know what was going to be in his future the red sox refused to provide this to him which brought most of this up

 

[Fixit]

They could have simply promised Manny he could be a FA at the end of the season. He would have played his butt off to earn a deal from somebody and we would have received the 2 good draft picks.

You've got to be kidding me. Why does anyone think he was going to play his butt off now? He never has. This was already a contract year for him, assuming Boston didn't pick up his option. Some team would have paid him, no matter how he finished the season. Saying that this time, for sure, he was going to finish strong and hustle and give a damn is as false a supposition as I can imagine.

Not to mention, y'all do realize that Manny did everything he could to force this trade, right? He stopped playing, he trashed the organization, he faked injuries, and he dared them to trade him. At what point do you say that enough's enough?

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

You've got to be kidding me. Why does anyone think he was going to play his butt off now? He never has. This was already a contract year for him, assuming Boston didn't pick up his option. Some team would have paid him, no matter how he finished the season. Saying that this time, for sure, he was going to finish strong and hustle and give a damn is as false a supposition as I can imagine.

Not to mention, y'all do realize that Manny did everything he could to force this trade, right? He stopped playing, he trashed the organization, he faked injuries, and he dared them to trade him. At what point do you say that enough's enough?

the point that he stops producing championships

 

[Real World]

I'm a Yankees fan, so therefore I obviously want the Sox to make as many bad deals as is possible. That being said, I think the Sox did about as good as could ever be expected in this situation. Manny had to go. His act was dispicable. Not trying on the field? That's unacceptable. Had the Sox kept him, he'd be too big a cancer in the clubhouse, and on the field. With this trade, the Sox aquired a LF'er with comparable stats, and control beyond this season at very reasonable dollars. Bay is not Manny, but he's as good a replacement as can be. He's just about a career .900 OPS player. He's 280/30/100 from the right side. Again, he's not Manny, but how many players are? Giving up Hansen and Moss hurts, but niether had a real future with the Redsox. The Moss inclusion hurts more because he might have netted Mahay. Still, it's a deal the Sox had to make.

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

I'm a Yankees fan, so therefore I obviously want the Sox to make as many bad deals as is possible. That being said, I think the Sox did about as good as could ever be expected in this situation. Manny had to go. His act was dispicable. Not trying on the field? That's unacceptable. Had the Sox kept him, he'd be too big a cancer in the clubhouse, and on the field. With this trade, the Sox aquired a LF'er with comparable stats, and control beyond this season at very reasonable dollars. Bay is not Manny, but he's as good a replacement as can be. He's just about a career .900 OPS player. He's 280/30/100 from the right side. Again, he's not Manny, but how many players are? Giving up Hansen and Moss hurts, but niether had a real future with the Redsox. The Moss inclusion hurts more because he might have netted Mahay. Still, it's a deal the Sox had to make.

They had to make this deal???? Ya and the redsox “had” to get Arod to win a championship

 

[Fixit]

the point that he stops producing championships

What about the day he starts hindering the team's chances at getting a ring? Is that a good day to say, "Bye-bye?"

 

[Fixit]

They had to make this deal???? Ya and the redsox “had” to get Arod to win a championship

It's a good thing you're not a GM, because your players would roll all over you.

 

[JAYHAWKS34]

It's a good thing you're not a GM, because your players would roll all over you.

i'm sure they would, good call

 

[Fixit]

No, it's not that hard to believe. I'm still of the thinking that almost every story quoting unnamed sources should be taken with a huge grain of salt, especially when it's a story that can make this story black and white. The Red Sox would much much rather have themselves look like the helpless victim in this case, who had no choice but to trade a great player because of his disrespect for them, and this story supports that exact line of thinking, therefore I am very doubtful that we're getting the entire story.

I find it much more likely that there are shades of grey out there that make the organization look bad and Manny look like he's not entirely the one to be blamed for this situation... but the Sox, by releasing stories from unnamed sources, can manipulate what their fanbase is told about what happened.

That all being said, back on the original topic, I still feel the Sox were willing to be the "losers" of this deal to make it happen. They traded 3 players, 2 possible draft picks and cash for a guy who, even if he performs very well, will still be considered a side-grade at best. Hopefully, not having the 20m salary on the books for next season will help them hunt down some attractive free agents this winter.

Found it: http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/sp_bb_red_sox_trade01_08-01-08_O7B2I4V_v19.40422d2.html

General manager Theo Epstein was working with a mandate from within his own clubhouse. After his team’s dispiriting loss to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim on Wednesday night, Epstein met with a handful of Red Sox veterans, all of whom delivered the same message: Manny had to go.

If his antics weren’t directly responsible for the team’s slide — the Sox have lost five of six on the current homestand, their worst stretch of play at Fenway all season — they were certainly serving as a distraction.

Worse, the players feared that if Ramirez remained with the Sox for the rest of the season, he couldn’t be counted upon in the middle of a pennant race. In their minds, there were no guarantees that Ramirez wouldn’t engage in further petulant displays that could sidetrack the team’s playoff push.

In the past, teammates had advised against just such a deal, reminding management that, whatever his faults, Ramirez’s skills as a run producer were too valuable.

But in the last week or so, Ramirez lost the clubhouse and the equation was turned on its head: No matter how good he was as a hitter, it wasn’t enough to outweigh the negatives.

Teammates were tired of answering questions about him, tired of rationalizing his selfish behavior, and frankly, tired of him.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

They could have simply promised Manny he could be a FA at the end of the season. He would have played his butt off to earn a deal from somebody and we would have received the 2 good draft picks.

They did that too!

I just read a globe article on how the trade went down, and if you can believe it, it now sounds even worse:

Not only are the Sox paying Manny's salary, before they traded him, they adjusted his contract to remove the two option years!

So let's review:

Manny got his $20,000,000 for this year
he got a $1,000,000 "moving" bonus (paid by the Dodgers).
he got out of the last two option years of his contract
and got out of Boston.

The Red Sox lost the best hitter they have ever had since Ted Williams (who the Boston Sports writers also hated).
They are paying 7 million dollats for Manny to play for the Dodgers.
They traded away their heralded #1 pick from 4 years ago in Hansen, who was contributing to your very weak bullpen.
They traded away a young outfielder in Moss, who should have been playing instead of CoCo, and will easily put up Murphy numbers in Pittsburg.
They got a .280 hitter (in the horid pitching NL) who averages a strikeout a game!!!

What the Sox should have done, is held the contract over Manny's head like a hammer. Suspend him indefinately, hell if you are going to pay his salary anyways, at least you don't lose Moss and Hansen. Plus they woudl have him for trade bait in the off-season (by picking up the option(s)) or threatening to do so. Or at the very least, get the two sandwich picks that Manny leaving via free agency would get you.

Certainely that would be better than this deal.

Of course, you could have always told manny, that they will not pick up the options if he shuts his mouth and plays the next two months.

This is a putrid trade, in any way you look at it. I feel sorry for Bay, as he is going to get crushed under the pressure of "replacing Manny".

Manny and Boras just raped the Sox.